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981  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BREAKING: Atlanta based Bitcoin giant BitPay hacked for nearly $2,000,000! on: September 18, 2015, 02:13:05 PM
This has something to do with bitcoin too. This kind of theft would never happen in legacy financial system where each account have a clear ownership registration by the banks, and supervised by regulators. So the fraudulent payment will always be reversed by the banks. However bitcoin is like cash, once bitcoin moved to another address, it is like cash being stolen, there is almost no way to trace it back

That's also the reason large banks are refusing to do bitcoin related business. If it really works like cash, then all those regulations around cash might apply to bitcoin: Daily withdraw limit, maximum number of cash allowed in one transaction etc...

You would think so, but that's not how the world works. What you are basically suggesting is that no fraud whatsoever can occur in the banking system because of how regulated it is because regulatory agencies can just reverse transactions. Take a look at history. It is ripe with thousands of cases of banking scams and fraud that were never recovered from. Especially when you are involving foreign banks, with foreign laws and regulations. There is so much red tape involved in getting such large wires reversed. Once the money is sent overseas, it's basically gone. Foreign banks will always put their account holders first, instead of taking orders from another banking institution outside of their country.

The only way such foreign banks would reverse transactions would be through a court order, from their country of residence. Wire Transfers may be traceable to account holders, but when you start involving multiple foreign countries and multiple unassociated accounts, the money is as good as gone. It can take YEARS to get effective court to get any kind of action, and by then the money is long gone, and likely is any evidence. Not to mention building a case and presenting evidence to the notion that there was fraud/scam involved, IN (possible multiple) foreign countries.

After you exceed more than 2 or 3 bank transfers beyond the initial fraud, that money will likely never be recovered. You'd be dealing with multiple parties/shell bank accounts. The party that is at the end, has nothing to do with the past 2 owners of the money. Can you imagine if someone spent a couple millions of dollars to your company, you gave them the product, they disappear with it, and then agencies try to take your money saying the 3rd to last owner stole it? There's no way on earth in any court system would get behind that.

I do international transfer daily, routed through multiple banks, it does not work like what you described, there are strict control each step, a slightest mismatch would put your fund on hold until more documents provided

In the case of Bitpay, if it is fiat money, the receiving end would always be a bank account hold by SecondMarket, all the intermediary banks know this. Also, if the receiving bank account number changed, Bitpay will notice it at the first place. And, even money were mistakenly sent to a foreign account, that amount will be first frozen at receiving end before the receiver provide enough evidence of the transaction and where is the money coming from, because it is a large sum of money. Banks can stop it if they want, but sometimes they are also participating in money laundering for VIP because of the high profit especially political benefit it gives, but that's another topic
982  Economy / Economics / Re: Greek debt crisis demonstrates perils of lending to your euro friends on: September 18, 2015, 01:50:15 PM

"The war is over; let the occupation begin."


The occupation is wanted by Greeks thyself. If they didn't taken all those money (credits) without thinking that are not their money and that one day must be returned back (even with interests) now it wouldn't be in all this mess. But they wanted to make the good life without thinking to much about from where come the money which gave them this kind of life and that to make that needed work and not credits. I would tell better: let's work begin. If they work hard had chances to be free again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt

All the governments do this today, look at the national debt of US/Japan/Germany, they are magnitudes larger than Greece and they will never be able to repay. However all these other governments' central bank can always print new money and lend it to their government to pay back their old debt, while Greece central bank does not have this right because Euro is printed by ECB, that's the fundamental problem for Greece

Japan for example has much worse debt to GDP ratio than Greece, so they have experienced slow growth for almost 20 years, but still they do not need to ask for another nation's permission to print new money to pay back the old debt

983  Economy / Speculation / Re: I will not Die Untill Bitcoin will reach at Least 50K on: September 18, 2015, 01:30:16 PM
I have more faith that bitcoin will reach 1 million price mark very soon. Because when investors looking for alternate safe source for their money bitcoin would be their problem solver. Why not right now : 1. Lack of bitcoin knowledge 2. Small bitcoin market cap (one whale can make bitcoin price into any direction)

what the f... how on earth do you think bitcoin will reach 1 million per coin? the money has to come from somewhere. it would give bitcoin a market cap of 21,000,000,000,000 if all coins are mined  Cheesy

1 Million is easier to do than 100 million, which is the theoretical upper limit (see my signature for detailed analysis)

However, previous two rally were caused by large advance in mining technology. Now that mining technology advance has greatly slowed down, the increase of exchange value will mainly depend on the scale of increase of mining operation, difficulty must rise in order for value to rise, and reward halving will give some help every 4 years
984  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's payment function can not compete with mobile payment solutions on: September 18, 2015, 12:53:12 PM
Again, I wished we haven't told people about confirmations in the first place.
Trying a double spend for a coffee, is like forging one dollar bills. Who would do that?
Furthermore, paying with a credit card takes days to confirm, but nobody thinks about that, when he uses a credit card, but in the Bitcoin World we have the problem, that it is nerds who tell the normal people about how Bitcoin works, and nerds tend to confuse people with just to much details and people get the whole thing wrong.
You see, that even OP, who is a Legendary Member, got it all wrong.

There are other reasons that you need a confirmation, for example the stress test or an attack going on could put your payment in hold for days if you did not pay enough fee, but you never know it in advance

A better solution is to use web wallets and LN payment channel, that could do the payment in real time without any fee (The merchant pay the fee once for thousands of transactions at daily settlement, so that each transaction's fee is neglectable)

But by the time people start to use web wallets at large scale, those fiat mobile payment solutions have already took majority of the market share, bitcoin is too late in the game

985  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: September 18, 2015, 12:37:12 PM
All the questions that science could not answer, throw it to God  Grin

God always have a place since you can never solve all the problems in the world. God does not solve it either, but at least it gives you a hope so that you don't become desperate
986  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin: currency or investment? on: September 18, 2015, 05:17:37 AM
Currency for the nerds, investment for the wise, speculation for the mass Grin
987  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Bitcoin's payment function can not compete with mobile payment solutions on: September 18, 2015, 04:46:06 AM
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/state-of-pay-an-overview-of-mobile-payments-2015-03-06

In fact some countries have already implemented well-functional mobile payment solutions for more than 2 years. Most of these solutions cost nothing to do payment, payment can be as low as 10 cents, and they confirm instantly

While for bitcoin, even if you have super fast nodes, it would still take 10 minutes to get the first confirmation, and it costs something. So it is a large disadvantage to use bitcoin blockchain to compete with those solutions, you must use a centralized service to achieve similar performance. And the real time casual payment space is already crowded with many different actors

Anyway, people are not going to spend bitcoin for groceries, they have plenty of depreciating fiat money to get rid of first. Fiat money is a perfect medium for spending: Get rid of it as soon as possible, it is even better to be indebted in it

Let's focus on bitcoin's unique strength: Long term inflation resistance and fast international settlement

988  Economy / Economics / Re: Greece Is Not Unique; Unsustainable Government Debt Has No Upside on: September 18, 2015, 03:37:26 AM
There is a common misconception: Money issued through debt. It is mathematically impossible. Money is not debt, the money creator will never be in debt

Only those who borrow money are in debt. So when government borrow money from banks, banks will never be in debt. Every money is owed to banks, not debt

Because banks can create money as wish, so the borrowing money to pay back the debt game can continue for decades without issues. And eventually some other more serious problem will arise to cover this scam
989  Economy / Economics / FED is not going to raise the rate on: September 18, 2015, 03:09:19 AM
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/federal-reserve-opts-to-keep-interest-rates-near-zero-2015-09-17

After financial crisis, FED bought so many houses with printed money to support the house price. Now large banks have both house and money (FED is owned by the large banks), but why they are not spending and not creating any inflation? Because this game is so addictive and they desperately need to print more and buy more lands  Cheesy

A common conception is that banks are richest, but if you count the price of land in large cities and add them up, you will see the total value of lands (if developed into houses) are magnitudes larger than the total money supply of the whole world. This indicated that landlords are still the richest, banks are trying their best to take those lands from landlords by printing money
990  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Amazing at what money can do to a human on: September 18, 2015, 01:50:49 AM
At this stage, money is not a big concern, my view of priority:
1. Survival
2. Security
3. Stability
4. Functionality

Szabo's view of priority
1. Consensus
2. Decentralization
3. Store of value
4. Payment system

Many of those aspects are linked and affecting each other: With reduced functionality you might get less user, which in turn impact the security of the network. But still, if every home user can run a node then the system will be extremely robust: The cost of attacking the network rises exponentially when the number of nodes rises following an attack
991  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BREAKING: Atlanta based Bitcoin giant BitPay hacked for nearly $2,000,000! on: September 18, 2015, 01:29:37 AM
In the grand scheme of things, this had little to do with bitcoin itself. Just another case of cyber and social security breached by combining social engineering with hacking. This could have just as easily been some wall street firm, or perhaps some precious metal company. It's a classic security breach. Bitpay is at fault for being hacked. Someone dealing with millions of dollars in cryptocurrency should have a little sense when visiting opening random documents/pages, even if from a trusted source. Quite a foolish move on bitpay's part.

This has something to do with bitcoin too. This kind of theft would never happen in legacy financial system where each account have a clear ownership registration by the banks, and supervised by regulators. So the fraudulent payment will always be reversed by the banks. However bitcoin is like cash, once bitcoin moved to another address, it is like cash being stolen, there is almost no way to trace it back

That's also the reason large banks are refusing to do bitcoin related business. If it really works like cash, then all those regulations around cash might apply to bitcoin: Daily withdraw limit, maximum number of cash allowed in one transaction etc...
992  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could the lightning network solve the block size problem? on: September 18, 2015, 01:02:39 AM
Just read that white paper another time, now I get a rough idea about how it might work in reality:

First two entities establish a common deposit by each sending certain amount of bitcoin into an address, similar to two banks each opening an account in counterpart bank and credit the counterpart same amount of money

Then all the transactions between these two entities will just change the ratio of each party's ownership of this common deposit. At the end of the clearing period, they settle the difference by a blockchain payment to make the ratio 50/50 again

This can help two large institutions, it is not very practical for single average user because the required deposit and one way payment nature. It seems single average user would still need to rely on large institutions, and existing large institutions might use lightning network or establish the clearing channel through other arrangements
I guess the most promising application of LN is where payments between entities are frequent and roughly predictable over the life of a channel. These might be BitPay<->Coinbase, but also it might be a man that routinely buys a cup of coffee somewhere in the morning, so setting up a channel between him and the cafe might make sense, especially because of near-instant 'confirmation'.

What you might be missing here is that all these channels can be chained together, forming a mesh-like network. In this case, you can have only one channel open, and send a payment to anyone in this network. This payment will be routed through intermediate hops right to the receiver.

The well-connected hops can be called hubs, and will receive a fee for their service. In theory, anyone can become a hub, it's only limited by how much BTC you have, i.e. how many channels can you fund with them.

True, LN seems to be very similar to how banks and institutions work in a closed loop. However, in legacy financial system, one weak link on the chain might trigger a systematic failure like Lehman brother's case, because the whole system have very little real money in circulation. If LN chains are widely applied, it will also have such kind of risk, and without central bank bailout

Most of the retail transactions are very sporadic and unpredictable. If you routinely buys a cup of coffee somewhere in the morning, then it is very likely the shop will sell you some batch discount coupon that give you 10 coffee for the price of 9, and you pay the whole package at once, reducing the transaction fee. This is also observed in mobile fee charge: Previously telephone company charge you based on how much and how frequent you use the service, now they are using a bulk model to charge you regardless of usage, to dramatically reduce the amount of transactions

I guess there will be VISA-like mechanism if the clearing based settlement is widely used. Consumers will periodically (when they receive the salary) charge their web wallet in mobile that they can pay at any location that accepts bitcoin payment. And the real payment happens between the web wallet company and Bitpay. But unless we have many payment processors and credit issuer, this seems like a single point of failure

Use blockchain to do large deposit/withdraw, use web wallet to do casual spending, this could be the trend for the coming years
993  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BREAKING: Atlanta based Bitcoin giant BitPay hacked for nearly $2,000,000! on: September 17, 2015, 02:15:27 PM
So these people have no telephones to confirm these types of transactions? Everyone know email is the easiest platform to hack. How can they simply trust a email to transfer $2 000 0000 worth of Bitcoin? I hope a full investigation will be launched and some people will get fired for this.

Not necessarily

If Bitpay is selling 1k to 2k bitcoins to SecondMarket frequently on a weekly basis, the most convenient and traceable way is to use email contact. However Bitpay does not require SecondMarket to pay before the transaction, this gave the hacker a chance to attack

In traditional finance system, this attack does not work, since the receiving account must follow the AML KYC measure and the transaction will be reversed by banks following a dispute and court decision. But bitcoin is different, so it is important to double check before sending out bitcoin transactions

This incident also give us a glance of the size of the transaction that is happening in Bitpay: Anything below 2000 is considered as normal
994  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BREAKING: Atlanta based Bitcoin giant BitPay hacked for nearly $2,000,000! on: September 17, 2015, 01:53:10 PM
"Immediately after clicking on the Google doc link, Mr Krohn enters his authenticating information as prompted in order to access the purported Google docs and receives an error message," the letter states. "[Krohn] believes his private information was stolen at that time and that his response provided access to his email to the fraudster."

I guess he was using gmail account to access google docs? A gmail account as corporate account???

Do not open any google doc  Grin
995  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could the lightning network solve the block size problem? on: September 17, 2015, 05:16:12 AM
Just read that white paper another time, now I get a rough idea about how it might work in reality:

First two entities establish a common deposit by each sending certain amount of bitcoin into an address, similar to two banks each opening an account in counterpart bank and credit the counterpart same amount of money

Then all the transactions between these two entities will just change the ratio of each party's ownership of this common deposit. At the end of the clearing period, they settle the difference by a blockchain payment to make the ratio 50/50 again

This can help two large institutions, it is not very practical for single average user because the required deposit and one way payment nature. It seems single average user would still need to rely on large institutions, and existing large institutions might use lightning network or establish the clearing channel through other arrangements
996  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Amazing at what money can do to a human on: September 17, 2015, 03:26:21 AM
The time of that post is January 31, 2013. More than two years have passed, many things have changed, more people are realizing the hard fork without super majority consensus is suicide
997  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Localbitcoins and I on: September 16, 2015, 01:37:33 PM
There are many scammers and drug dealers using localbitcoins, so it is extremely sensitive from law enforcement point of view. The site should have implemented AML and KYC measures to reduce the amount of fraud and illegal acitivities, but since there are no law currently require an escrow service to do that (I think it will come sooner or later), it is totally up to the dealer to follow the AML and KYC rule (I guess most of the pro traders on the platform do that)
998  Economy / Economics / Re: Ways of buying bitcoin without letting the government notice on: September 16, 2015, 12:43:15 PM
I am a CPA and fully understand how tax law works for both entities and individuals

Good to have some tax expert here. I'm always curious why Federal Reserve never pay any tax when they create trillions of money: In an income sense, their profit is exactly the amount of money they created. Can you elaborate on this?
999  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Thanks to people who support 1-2 MB blocks - great idea u fools... on: September 16, 2015, 12:06:07 PM

Easier said than done, just import this private key and tell me how long it takes
L5WfGz1p6tstRpuxXtiy4VFotXkHa9CRytCqY2f5GeStarA5GgG5

Notice that a transaction of 1MB containing 5000+ inputs are totally legal in today's system, so it already showed some incentive that attackers might be interested. If even under 1MB block size nodes already have to setup defenses against data flooding attack, it shows the current network is far from robust to go for higher block sizes

But its a free market right, if somebody wants to flood the network, miners just increase the transaction fee.

Let the spammer pay, eventually he will run out of money.


I think it should be raised to 2 MB atleast, c`mon i got a  300 mb/s internet speed, guys get yourself better fucking internet:



A 2MB block is totally different thing as a 2MB mp3 file, it might contain much more complicated data that even a modern CPU can not handle well because of all the verification involved in thousands of transactions

If someone throwing out $20 notes every second on the top of empire state building, it will jam the traffic of whole Manhattan. Can you just say that let the free market decide and he will eventually run out of money?

Historically, attack of the network usually come together with the attack on bitcoin exchanges. The attacker can short the bitcoin on major exchanges and wait for the network chaos to profit
1000  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Enforcing a production quota on block space that fights the free market on: September 16, 2015, 05:29:34 AM

...the power of the network effect. Altcoins that desperately attempt to compete with Bitcoin, or the XT episode are good illustrations. It is extremely likely that the blocksize limit will push people to offchain Bitcoin solution rather than push them away from Bitcoin. This has already been observed with Dice users that got pushed to centralized Bitcoin offchain services when the min relay fee was implemented.

Excellent point, I would also add "the power of time" besides "the power of the network effect".  

Many things exist with lots of imperfection, just because no one can go back in time and re-engineering the whole thing and remove all the effect they have caused. Over time, things will generate strong inertia, any attempt to go against those inertia would become more and more difficult

In my opinion, at this stage, no drastic change would happen in bitcoin space, most possibly people will just continue to use off-chain services which already exists today: Exchanges, mining pools, webwallets, payment processors, gambling sites, ...

If many large actors in these area start to build their clearing and settlement partnership, then essentially majority of the bitcoin transactions can go off-chain and become instant and almost fee free. Anyway, majority of the bitcoin payment transactions just happen between those large service providers

I have explained a such possibility here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171667.msg12337227#msg12337227
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