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1  Bitcoin / Wallet software / Do any wallets work on XP Pro SP3 32-bit? on: May 25, 2017, 04:25:01 PM
For that matter I haven't seen any wallets that work on 32-bit systems period, other than Bitcoin Core "supposedly"... I put that word in quotes because upon actually trying it it gave me an error message trying to install it.  The reason could be because I don't have .NET Framework installed on that box, and Bitcoin Core requires it?  Perhaps all wallets require it, as it appears no wallet will work on any version of Windows after XP, and every version since XP has .NET Framework packaged in with the OS itself.

And before you get sidetracked, disregard any real answer and instead spout off about how one shouldn't use XP to begin with because it doesn't get any updates anymore and is unsafe, allow me a pre-emptive disclaimer:  You actually can get updates for XP through at least 2021 via a tweak known as the "POS Ready Tweak".  POS Ready was an OS created solely for Enterprise purposes... big businesses that for whatever reason couldn't or just wouldn't update their networks in time for the EOL.  It didn't get a lot of press for obvious reasons and wasn't available to the general public, until later on it came on some mobile devices.  All it is is essentially an XP Pro SP4, and it's EOL is 2021.  And we know EOL's almost always get pushed back at least 1 year, so I'd say April of 2022 is a likely EOL.  You can use a simple registry tweak on XP Pro to get updates until then.  Not to mention on XP you can really tweak and trim the OS to pretty much eliminate any semblance of attack surface... by disabling services, deleting and tweaking things, and on the Pro version utilize things like Local & Group Policy tweaks to create whitelisting rules, halting things like CryptoLocker dead in it's tracks.  Folder permissions + LUA.  You can make it so that every port is closed without using any 3'rd party software, not even a router or the integrated Windows FW.  And all but immune to any type of exploit without even using DEP, not that that's possible because it's built into the CPU.  Once you add some 3'rd party software into the mix, and utilize it properly, like a software FW, HIPS (like Comodo FW with Defense+) with tight rule sets and a whitelisting approach for the HIPS, Sandboxie, with sandboxes for anything facing the internet, Malwarebytes Anti-Exploit, TrueCrypt, a VM, Macrium Reflect for backups.  Create isolation by creating partitions for many individual things, like the OS of course isolated, browser, temp folders.  Anything new introduced to the box via download, USB port, or removable drive is sandboxed in it's own dedicated partition, scanned with VT Hash Check, MBAM, Hitman Pro or TDSS Killer before getting moved where it belongs.  You don't even need to use a real-time AV.  Certain things in TrueCrypt encrypted containers, VPN's, TOR on an encrypted USB stick.  With all this, whitelisting, hosts/block lists... allowing only what is absolutely needed for everything on your box to work properly, from apps to websites.  Well, you get the gist.  

IMO it can be made to be the most secure/private OS there is all things considered, though it certainly doesn't come out of the box that way.  Every Windows OS since leaks telemetry like a bad faucet, and you don't have to rely on security by obscurity because there's a lack of good 3'rd party support as with alternate OS's.  You can get the best of both worlds.  But I despise .NET Framework... it is major bloat and also vulnerable attack surface.  I have other setups but I like this one the best and wish there were a good wallet for it too.  Is Paper Wallet the only choice?  Does every wallet require .NET FW?... even if there were one to work on XP would installing that be a neccessity?

How about hardware wallets?  Would any of them work with XP Pro SP3?

I'm open to suggestions.  Right now I don't own much BTC and what I do have is online, but I don't want that to stay the case as I've become a vendor on a deep web site and expect to be bringing in more BTC in the near future, and I don't trust having it online.  I'd prefer a hardware wallet to all of them, but don't know if it's possible with this setup.

I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions...

2  Economy / Exchanges / Re: Please help BTC E is holding my account hostage and not responding to inquiries on: May 25, 2017, 02:48:24 PM
Hiring a lawyer was the best thing for you to do personally.  The 2'nd best thing would be to get in touch & build solid rapport with somebody who writes articles/blogs about Cryptocurrency on the deep web that get a lot of exposure...  I just so happen to be such a person btw.  Don't bother asking who I am or which blog(s) because that could blow my anonymity.  But I'm about to write a blog about mixing/tumbling sites, and I'm going to burn a certain one (Bitcoin Blender) because they stole my money and are not responding to any inquiries.  It was nowhere near what you lost, only $120, but that's still a lot of money to me.  And heck as much as the value has gone up since then it's closer to $200 now.  But it's more the principle of it than anything.  After further research I came to find it's a shell scheme, where they have 3 separate sites all run by the same people.  All talking a great game on their home pages... a strategy that is very sound and would be quite effective if not for the fact that there's a chance they'll take your BTC and run.  Ironically I was going to praise them in particular as being the go-to option for people that insist on tumbling their BTC, while not endorsing the method of tumbling as a whole.

I'm writing mainly about whether or not they are necessary, or even beneficiary, or heck... even detrimental for that matter.  Is it worth putting your trust in someone(s) you don't even know to possibly end up with someone elses even dirtier BTC?  You use yours to buy a potted plant, tumble it, and end up with BTC that were used to buy drugs or snuff films from some shady corner of the dark net.  If you use anonymity from the word go using a tumbling site is just adding an extra M.I.T.M. that you're giving away information to.  And my experience also went a long way into shaping my view... the fact that any one of them can and will rob you eventually, just never the first time (or first few times) you use them.  Selectively, so that there's far more positive than negative feedback.  And this is a scenario that's happened to you it seems unfortunately, just with a different medium... you see I'm not going off topic here this is all about you and your unfortunate situation, I'm just drawing parallels, setting the scene and offering advice on how to combat it.

And once you turn your $ into cryptocurrency and grow/gain some excess get it the heck offline ASAP.  Never trust any middle man with it or any 1'st party to handle it for any length of time either.

And on top of that do what you're doing right now... get the word out in cryptocurrency forums where you know lots of people are bound to see it.  And let them know that you're doing exactly that "if" they don't give you your money back.  In your case unfortunately it's so much money they probably wouldn't flinch anyhow.  In mine they think I'm bluffing, but in 3 days thousands of people will read my blog condemning said site and they'll end up losing FAR more business in the end than that measly $120 BTC was worth to them.  What I did was try each tumbling site I knew about at least twice... first sending a very small amount, like 40-$60.  And then the second time 100-$150.  And if both of them went through a 3'rd time for several hundred.  And I caught one of them being shady on the 2'nd try, all the rest of them came through but I'm over the entire operation by association.  I know if one of them does it they all will, again selectively.  I've done enough research to come to this conclusion.  I figured I'd catch at least one with their hand in the cookie jar and I did, but it just as easily could have been any of them.  And this recent boom will result in even more people having tumbling sites eat their cryptocurrency as if they're a bowl full of Skittles sitting beside them as they play XBox Live.

I'm sorry that this happened to you.  I might just have to look into this operation personally, and who knows, have a few things to say about them in a future blog if you don't get your money back.  So keep us posted...
3  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin OVERFLOW => If You Are Not Rich Now :) It <Mean You'll Never .... on: May 25, 2017, 01:06:27 PM
It's not done yet.  After this boom it will inevitably hit a period of stability, where the price goes up a bit one day, down a bit the next, as people aren't sure whether to keep buying, selling, or holding.  But in this economy, and knowing the volatility of the medium I'm guessing more will sell, or perhaps rather the ones (perhaps relatively few) that really hoard a lot will sell off a lot will sell off what they consider their excess, then turn that cash money into safer, low/non-existent risk investments, like gold/silver, especially in the form of graded/slabbed coins/bullion (I suggest Gold & Silver American Eagle coins bought in bulk from APMEX, then sent to NGC to be graded and slabbed.)  Almost all of them will earn the highest grade of 70.  They will come in plastic tubes... don't even take them out, send them in like that.  It's just a nominal fee to do it, and will add 50-$100 to the value of each gold coin and $15 or so to the silver ones.  APMEX also has .9999% pure gold & silver bullion, the .9999 silver ones come in rounds not bars, look carefully because there are .999 ones too and they're the same price and look the same save an extra or missing "9".  Just giving advice to this crowd... things that won't tie your money up and will sell themselves if/when you decide to move it back into BTC.  

The people that held onto theirs and didn't flinch will be just fine, however, IMO, taking the above approach will maximize profits.  The value may go back down to the 1200-1600 range.  When this happens there will be a tidal wave of a boom that made this recent one look like a mere wake.  The people that held onto theirs will buy more... the people that got their money out will re-invest, and newcomers waiting for the price to go down now, wishing they got in sooner and figuring what goes up must come down will jump in with both feet too.  And the blue chippers that stick to the old guard market approach, afraid of the potential for volatility of BTC from the past events that are taking notice now to the potential gold mine it is will also pour their money into it.  It's already begun and that's what's to credit in large for the recent boom.  But we know how these people work too, and that's what tells me many of them will get out about now too and take something like the above approach.  When the smoke clears I wouldn't be surprised to see the value of BTC to hover around $5000/1 by the middle/end of 2018.  I've even seen a Chinese "prognosticator" predict the value to be closer to $10,000/1. by then.  I think that may be a bit optimistic, but at this point it's hard to doubt anything in regards to the potential growth of BTC.  What goes up indeed must come down, but it can also then come back up again with a vengeance swinging with both fists.  And I expect that to be the case here and it seems to be the prevailing opinion amongst gurus... save of course the "old guard" Wall Street tycoons that always spin BTC with a doom & gloom outlook because it's a threat to their status quo of how fiat currency operates.    
4  Economy / Scam Accusations / Bitcoin Blender = Scam sites on: May 23, 2017, 02:39:48 PM
"bitblender.org", "bitblender.io", and the onion site "bitblendervrfkzr.onion" are all owned by the same entity(s), and are scammers.  Avoid them at all costs.  You may be thinking to yourself, "now wait, I used them before and it worked just fine".  Yeah, me too.  But what they'll do is allow your first, or even first several transactions to go through to earn your trust.  But then the moment you trust them with a larger transaction they'll head to the hills with your BTC, and leave all your queries un-returned.  They selectively scam people... the selective part being they select the larger transactions.  This is a very effective method as it leaves them with far more positive feedback than negative.  So people will disregard the negative ones as either progaganda from competing mixing sites, or simply mistakes.  Or maybe truly believe it but figure because of the disproportional amount of positive to negative feedback that it won't happen to them.  But I thought that too, and guess what?...  it DID happen to me, and you could be next.

But they picked the wrong person to mess with this time.  I write a blog on the "Deep Dot Web" about Cryptocurrency".  Literally everyone that types "deepweb.pw" into their TOR browser and then clicks on the "Deep Dot Web" link can see my article near the top of the page.  And my upcoming article is about mixing/tumbling sites.  That transaction was indeed part of a test run for these sites.  I'm trying all of them at least twice, doing a very small transaction the first time, and then a larger one the second time, as I know that the scam sites operate that way... the way I described above.  The article is to be a "Who's Hot & Who's Not List" of tumbling/mixing sites, and this trio of scam sites will now be featured in the article as the worst of the worst, and exposed for what they are.  All the other sites had their own minute pro's & con's, but in the end all did their jobs.

And the irony is that after the first transaction I was poised to put Bitcoin Blender at the top spot of the list of the best mixing sites, based on how smooth the transaction was and their sound business model, most of which you can read on their home page.  They sure talk a good talk, but unfortunately don't walk the walk.  Now instead they will be at the top of the wrong list.  They'll lose a ton of business.  And I won't stop there...  I'll visit as many sites like this one as possible and spread the word as well.  This will end up being the worst business decision they've made in their lives, and they'll end up losing exponentially more money than the measly $145 they took me for.

I won't even stop there.  I have the connections to find out who these people really are... who's hiding behind those masks, expose their true identities, have their scam sites shut down and even pursue legal action.  They just scammed the wrong person.
5  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: 42 Confirmations, yet my BTC never made it here on: May 23, 2017, 02:07:37 PM
Right.  And it was the "for discussion about this mixer" part that I utilized.  And the discussion is that they are scammers.  I'd read that there was a scam site that piggy-backed off of their "supposed" good name... using a wordpress site to direct people to their site.  To avoid that one but that the one I used was the real deal.  But now I realize that the same entities control all of those sites.  There's another one that goes by "bitblender.io".  That, "bitblender.org", and the .onion site "bitblendervrfkzr.onion" are all run by the same entities/scammers I've learned.  Steer clear of all of them.  They'll let the first, or first few transactions go through to earn their trust.  But then the moment you trust them with a larger transaction they will take your money and run and leave your messages un-returned... and I've heard from some people will then terminate your account as well.

I doubt there's anything I can do to see that money again, but I will burn them as a result and cost them exponentially more business than the measly $145 worth of BTC they took me for.  Literally everyone that types "deepweb.pw" into their TOR browser and then clicks on the "Deep Dot Web" link will see my blog toward the top of their page, and I've now decided that instead of the headline being something like "Bitcoin Mixing sites, Who's Hot & Who's Not", it'll be a damnation of their site in general.  To avoid that trio of sites I mentioned as being run by the same entities who are scammers, and that I had no problem with any of the other mixers I tried... all of which had their own minute pro's & con's, but ultimately they did their job in the end.  That service being the exception.
6  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: 42 Confirmations, yet my BTC never made it here on: May 23, 2017, 08:51:42 AM
I'm not threatening "this place"... when I say I'm going to post my experiences I'm talking about "Bitcoin Blender", sorry for the confusion.  But on the Home Page on their site, at the very top, they have a post to this forum and specifically say to refer to this place in the event that there are any problems.

And you ask if they have any support/contact method...   I addressed that in my very first post.  The indeed do have a tab titled "Support".  All it is is a message box, and they say they will respond on that very same page.  And I sent them 3 different messages now, all the same stuff I basically said here, and I received ZERO responses from them.  No phone number listed... no email address(s)...  So that's the type of support one can expect from them.  And so I exercised my only other option to try to get the attention of someone who works for the place, by posting here...  the place they linked on their Home Page to utilize to try to get answers to problems.  So that's why sometimes I may associate this forum with them and make it sound like I'm condemning this forum along with them, as if they're not separate entities.  Again, sorry for that confusion.

In fact I salute this place.  Some good information.  Seems like a good community.  I most certainly will have nothing negative to say about my experience here.  In fact I get the feeling somebody here will help me resolve this problem.  And if that's the case I'll endorse this place not only with my words but my wallet... I assume there's a way of sending donations. 

And also if I do need to pay somebody to move my Bitcoins I will reward them handsomely for their efforts.  I read in some posts below about people requesting for people to "mine" their BTC.  But it sounds like in their case they received no confirmations.  That wasn't my problem.  I did receive confirmations... 42 of them at last glance.  So I assume that means I did indeed send an adequate mining fee, correct?  But when I look now I see no confirmations.  That makes me think my transaction has now gone through...  but not to me.  And considering how secure my setup is and how careful I was through every step of the process it would have to have been an inside job if that indeed did happen.  But if I'm incorrect and do indeed need to pay some mining fee to get the ball rolling I will do so.  But that was always done automatically before, using localbitcoins.  I don't know why it wouldn't have been done automatically this time, but again, there's a first time for everything.

I also noticed that person posted their transaction ID/receiving address.  And so I'll assume it is safe and post mine too, if it helps someone help me:

Transaction ID:  7825377d41879e2ecc631c3ea86278969dbadf8e1cbc245014dfb167c71ffe4c

Receiving Address (to Bitcoin Blender):  1N6AjyEwb3dxRuon45r4U6u1A8vryycSDv

Sending Address (from localbitcoins):  13WXQCUfgmk8AuMR7DoXnRdC3xMzSrFnyC
7  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: 42 Confirmations, yet my BTC never made it here on: May 23, 2017, 08:10:29 AM
Do you have a TlDR; version for this ?
Doesn't seem like a technical issue,move the thread to service discussion maybe.
Provide links for reference - Your main transaction -Mixers Address.
Link of the website you used for mixing.IIRC a fake version of bitblender has already scammer their customers.You could another victim.

I think this is the proper place for this.  After all it says "Technical Support" with "Transactions" specifically being one of the criteria it covers.  I looked at every category first and felt this was the best fit.

And if it helps... if someone that works for this site and can help is reading this my username is:

Zip50175

The amount of Bitcoins I sent was:  0.06785572    Currently of which the value is:  $145.75  

I'm pretty sure it was $133 roughly that I sent initially.

I'm not sure if it's safe to post the receiving address I used at the time or not.  If it is and can help then someone that knows so please let me know and I'll post that too.

Maybe this was some kind of honest mistake or even oversight on my part, like I said toward the end of that long post above.  Perhaps that "Request Payment" button on the Blockchain is the answer to my problem.  If so I need to know what to enter there.  I don't know if I'm supposed to enter the amount of the entire transaction or an amount of a nominal fee to offer someone to move my money where it's supposed to be.  Please let me know... if that button/option is even relevant that is.  And let me know the answer to that as well (whether that button means that or not).

I definitely don't want to paint this place in a negative light if it's not warranted, because a lot of people follow my blog and it could negatively impact this place unjustifiably.  But at the same time if I don't an explanation/answer to my problem here, and ultimately my Bitcoins, I will have no choice than to post my experience in an objective manner for all to see.  It's not only my job but also my responsibility to get the word out to others so that they can make informed decisions and not have happen to them what happened to me.  Because unless I realize there's a viable explanation as to what happened here, and a resolution, my position will be not only to tell people to avoid this site but to avoid mixing/tumbling sites altogether.  After all I had a blueprint of scenarios laid out in advance to use depending on my experiences.  And one of them, if things went south during any single one of my test runs, was to tell people that as long as they don't have any personally identifiable information tied to the Bitcoin buying/selling site they decide to use (by using a fake/throw-away email address and using a VPN), and choosing "Cash By Mail" as their payment option, using either a fake return address or none at all, that there's really no way to tie the transaction to them anyway.  And, again, if this matter isn't resolved that's the way I'll go.
8  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: 42 Confirmations, yet my BTC never made it here on: May 23, 2017, 07:31:40 AM
Do you have a TlDR; version for this ?
Doesn't seem like a technical issue,move the thread to service discussion maybe.
Provide links for reference - Your main transaction -Mixers Address.
Link of the website you used for mixing.IIRC a fake version of bitblender has already scammer their customers.You could another victim.

It's highly improbable that I could have been compromised.  I run a very, very tight ship that starts at the core, eliminating/disabling anything that isn't absolutey necessary to eliminate attack surface.  To make it so that I could be safe without any need for any 3'rd party support or even a router.  Using whitelisting approach for basically everything, and then of course adding things, like of course really using a router, properly configured, and hardwired into it (WiFi disabled). My LAN range consists of only 1 IP address, the machine I'm using now.  Then adding an outbound firewall and HIPS, allowing only protocols, IP addresses/ranges, ports, and functionality that's absolutely necessary for proper functionality of everything, from my apps to websites working properly.  Hosts and block lists.  For every website I frequent or consider important (like this one), when I go to it I look at every IP address on the list and then adding them to my block list to see if it still works properly.  If it doesn't I remove IP add's 1 at a time until only the ones that are necessary for sites to function properly left.  All the IP add's left are likely trackers, or worse.  Adding block rules beneath the rules for apps in my FW, which is one of several methods I use to prevent DNS leaks.  If my VPN (double hop) were to disconnect for example my entire internet connection would drop.  I also use an app (DNS Leak Fix) created by the very VPN I use (iVPN), IMO it and Mullvad are the best two.  Many claim not to keep logs but these two have proven it over time by refusing to turn over info. despite being pressured to by 3 letter agencies, claiming as they do on their sites, that there's nothing to turn over because they don't keep logs.  Their servers have been seized and it's been confirmed that it's indeed the truth.  I also use Sandboxie with VERY restricted sandboxes, usually allowing only the app I've created it for, save perhaps an OS file needed for it to work properly, or in the case of Pidgin Messenger OTR.  Any new downloads are sent to a dedicated partition in which they are scanned by VT Hash Check to confirm they're safe before sending them where they belong.  And a sandbox named "Realtime" for anything plugged into a USB port, my CD/DVD drive, and floppy drive (A:).  Which brings me to another huge part of my approach - isolation.  I create partitions for different things, many apps have their own, like my browser.  And my OS.  This helps keep malware from spreading to my OS, stuck in an isolated sandbox/partition, not a threat, then flushed when I empty said sandbox.  Always on Hardware DEP, and Malwarebytes Anti-Exploit with many methods to prevent exploits.  On top of DNS Leak Fix I manually flush my DNS cache using "cmd" before opening my browser/TOR.  Hardcode the DNS add. of the 2'nd hop of my VPN into my router. etc...  Utilize addons on my version of Firefox from before Austrailis (sp?) screwed everything up like NoScript, HTTPS-Everywhere, RequestPolicy, CS Lite Mod, Private Tab, uBlock, Calomel SSL Validation.  Many things that would alert me to the fact that I'd be on a rogue/imposter site.  Not to mention my search engine (Ixquick) does an excellent job of identifying and removing such sites.  I'd be able to tell if I were on such a site by simply looking at the color of my Calomel logo, or URL bar.  Plus I favorited the site the first time I went to it, using Ixquick to search for it, not by clicking on some random link.  That first time when it worked just fine. 

To make a long story short (too late, I know)...  I'm very anal about security/privacy/anonymity, and I know that if I was somehow compromised it was an inside job.  Either that or I overlooked something.

I notice on the blockchain it says "Request Payment" there.  But I'm not sure what that's all about.  Can I use that to move my Bitcoins where they're supposed to be?  What do I put into the boxes?  I don't know if I'm supposed to put all the Bitcoins I was trying to move into the box, or if I'm supposed to offer some nominal fee for somebody to do the job for me and move my BTC here?  Can somebody tell me if this is the case?...  if there's anything I can do in that regard?  I didn't have to do it any other time I moved bitcoins, but there's a first time for everything too.  So perhaps that's the thing I'm overlooking here?...   If so, or if there's another way I can resolve this by offering someone a nominal fee then I'll take back every negative thing I've said about this place, delete this thread, and give this place a positive review in the end.
9  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / 42 Confirmations, yet my BTC never made it here on: May 23, 2017, 05:59:19 AM
This was no "stuck transaction".  I sent (I believe) $120 worth of BTC here to be mixed, and it was never received in my account.  I know it wasn't "stuck" as I could see in the Blockchain that it kept getting confirmed, and confirmed, and confirmed more... up to 42 times the last time I looked.  They were practically nagging Bitcoin Blender to take my money... yet it was never entered into my account here.

I left several messages asking for an explanation, and never received any response.  This was 4 days ago now.  And now that I go to look at the transaction in the Blockchain the BTC have been passed along... to someone, but not to me... not to my account here.  The only viable explanation is that Bitcoin Blender has stolen my BTC. 

I know that I used the correct receiving address.  I logged in here right before making the transaction to double check that the address hadn't changed.  And TRIPLE checked to make sure that I had the address correct, but that's really a moot point, it HAD to be correct because I copied and pasted it right from this site into a Wordpad document, and then copied and pasted it into the field at localbitcoin.com as well to send it here.  So it's impossible that I entered the wrong address.  And afterward my receiving address here at Bitcoin Blender changed, signifying that the prior one had indeed been used... that it realized that I indeed did make a transaction and it acknowledged that fact by assigning me a new address to use for the next time.

... yet the money never did make it here.  I of course did pay the mining fee.  The BTC never would have been confirmed a bazillion times in the Blockchain otherwise.

I would like an explanation as to exactly what happened to my bitcoins... where they are... and furthermore I want them.  I NEED them!  This is a very time sensitive issue that I get them where they need to be.  If I had known that I would have to endure this nightmare I never would have tried to mix them in the first place, I'd have just sent them where they were supposed to end up right away.  And unless I'm given a good explanation as to why this happened that illustrates a mistake on my end from now on I'll do just that, and never use a mixer again.

And the irony of this is that I write a very influential blog for the Deep Dot Web, mainly about Cryptocurrency.  And my next blog focuses on mixing/tumbling... whether it is necessary/beneficiary.  And am in the process of testing different sites to create a list of the best, and the worst tumbling sites.  I'm trying them more than just once to give a more accurate/objective assessment.  My plan was to make a small transaction first, and then a larger one second, as I've heard stories about the shady tumbling sites allowing your first transaction(s) to go through without a hitch, just waiting/depending on you to build up trust with them...  only to rob you later on when you make a larger transaction.  And I'm sorry to say that that appears to be precisely what happened here.  And I was prepared to put this site at, or at least toward the top of my list of the best based on my first transaction and because of many of the factors you can find on the Home page of this site.  But unless I'm given an explanation as to what happened and the situation is remedied Bitcoin Blender will instead find itself at the top of the other list...  of the ones to be avoided and not to be trusted.

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