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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Where is the historical 'raw' data for all altcoins? on: July 10, 2017, 08:56:07 PM
@Vivisector999 : I see. In that case why do some altcoins start with a higher price initially? If all is in the hands of exchange(s) based on the supply/ demand then who determines the price on day 0?

PS: Do you mind if even PM you sometime?
2  Economy / Economics / Re: How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 10, 2017, 05:21:33 PM
Thanks again,  but I re-iterate on the primer from #10 adding the pointers from

I'm hoping for an answer like this:
a) The dev(s) launched coin <name> on Day 0 and came up with price P1 that was hardcoded <here>
b) Miners/ innovation/ difficulty level etc factors cause an increase/ decrease of <amount/ percentage here>
c) Thus, at time T1 of launch the price was calculated by <this> to be <this much>
d) At time T2 price increased/ decreased by <this much percentage> or became <this much>

Or including the merchant (like @DOGE12321 said)
e) Merchant M1 derived price PM1 <here>, M2 derived price PM2 <here>
f) Exchange E1 averaged prices PM1, PM2.. and came up with it's price PE1, exchange E2 likewise came with PE2
g) preev averaged the prices PE1, PE2...

Not a very elegant primer, but hopefully you get an idea. It's the derivation of the price step by step than the theoretical knowledge that I hope to find here.
3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Where is the historical 'raw' data for all altcoins? on: July 10, 2017, 05:11:46 PM
Would that imply that Exchanges are determining the price (on the fly, based on their algos?) of any altcoin on the basis of trading volume and other parameters? And, further that small exchanges align their prices to the bigger ones to avoid arbitrage (in the longer run)?

If that's the case that sounds like a soon to be an adhoc case where a certain exchange(s) could be monopolistic.
4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Where is the historical 'raw' data for all altcoins? on: July 10, 2017, 12:47:01 AM
Where is the historical 'raw' data for all altcoins?

Where can one find the historical raw data for altoins? Where are the exchanges pulling the raw data from to plot the charts?
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: How to "crosscheck" info (like premine/ instamine/ max supply etc) on: July 09, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
For most regular coins the premine amount/blockreward structure can bee seen through github/src/main.cpp and searching for the word "nsubsidy".

For example:

https://github.com/PIVX-Project/PIVX/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1617

nHeight is the block number and subsidy is the blockreward.

So if you see this:

    if (nHeight == 0) {
        nSubsidy = 60001 * COIN;

That means that there's a 60001 premine at block 1 (0).

@bathrobehero: Thanks. Since you said most, would you like to quote an example of an outlier as well? Also, what about other parameters? Are they also usually in github/src/main.cpp?
6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Backtracking a coin that is either derived/ forked from a (defunct) coin on: July 09, 2017, 09:46:40 PM
Backtracking a coin that is either derived/ forked from a (defunct) coin

How can one (code agnostically) track if coin X has a bad history of being derived from an earlier defunct coin F or just a copy of another successful coin (like bitcoin) with minor code modifications and possibly no innovations(s)?
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / How to "crosscheck" info (like premine/ instamine/ max supply etc) on: July 09, 2017, 09:32:27 PM
Presuming that the info supplied by dev(s) does not satisfy anyone, where/ how can one crosscheck all the info about an altcoin?

For a language agnostic (not knowing C++ but understanding the logic) would it be advisable to dig into code somewhere? Or is there a better way to "crosscheck" all the info that the dev(s) might otherwise try to conceal esp before launch?

Sample parameters for such info:
1) Premined
2) Instamined
3) Hashing algo
4) Dilution
5) Max supply
6) Features/ Innovations
7) Halving time
etc
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: ██【ANN】██【 OFFICIAL】██【CHARNACOIN】██ CRYPTONOTE】██ on: July 09, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
How many coins premined?
Already mined 34k blocks?
@JC1DA: curious, how did you find that 34k blocks were mined? or anything about premine/ instamine? care to elaborate please, for the benefit of a newbie?

You can check on the pool.

@JC1DA: Thanks. It gives the blockchain height as of now. It does not show a way to see the blocks/ coins that were mined at any time T0 (like pre-launch).

Also, your question confused me when you asked "How many coins premined?" while answering it yourself with "Already mined 34k blocks?" which made me interpret it as premined coins being different from the already mined 34k blocks (that you were likely determining by the blockchain height in the mining pool?).
9  Economy / Economics / Re: How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 09, 2017, 09:05:36 PM
@Herbert2020:
1) My question is for efficient markets (rather exchanges), whenever they'll be, which do not leave you with any scope of arbitrage.
2) Yes, centralized market can not determine price for everything but it can determine prices for raw materials/ taxes that'll have trickle down effect. Again, dissecting those markets is far more tedious and vagueness will increase exponentially. That's why I was hoping for a simpler and straightforward answer for a system that's rather new in place and decentralized.

@Windpower
1) I understand that people are ready to pay premium and I would not have asked the question had their been a bidding process.

Summary:
My question is simple (even if the answer is complex). Who is calculating the price and where can I see it being calculated. There's always been this gap in Economics where we start all mathematical, then we insert efficient market theories and voila we've magically determined a price. Backtracking that in normal markets is rather a rabbit hole but shouldn't be that bad in the cryptocurrency markets, hopefully?

Would someone be nice enough to start with an example and take it all the way to end to show how the price was determined? You can pick up a newer altcoin that does not have as much volatility/ volume to simplify the example.

I'm hoping for an answer like this:
a) The dev(s) launched coin <name> on Day 0 and came up with price P1 that was hardcoded <here>
b) Miners/ innovation/ difficulty level etc factors cause an increase/ decrease of <amount/ percentage here>
c) Thus, at time T1 of launch the price was calculated by <this> to be <this much>
d) At time T2 price increased/ decreased by <this much percentage> or became <this much>

Not a very elegant primer, but hopefully you get an idea. It's the derivation of the price step by step than the theoretical knowledge that I hope to find here.
10  Economy / Economics / Re: How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 09, 2017, 08:54:57 PM
How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin?

So far, I have got mixed responses from elsewhere including theoretical explanations of supply/ demand, trading bots and on similar lines. But, no answer in simple enough language and with authority that explains the price (thus the volatility) of the cryptocurrencies.
well price of bitcoin is not that different from price of anything else. it is being determined based on supply and demand.
if someone has already explained it to you i really can't put it in any other words to make it better.
but maybe these links can help more: http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

usually for supply and demand i see people use the example of winter cloths. in summer time nobody buys winter clothing so the demand goes down and you may find them under their real price. and in winter everyone wants to buy them so the demand goes up and as a result the prices can go higher too.

Quote
Is this somewhere in the code that takes some input parameters to deterministically reach a price, maybe based on the hashing power, difficulty level etc? Or is it more complex? Can someone please explain the inner workings? My curiosity is only to understand the correlation between cryptocurrencies and the Economics in the absence of a centralized governing/ intervening body.
No.
being centralized or not has nothing to do with the price. the centralized government doesn't set the price of everything. and even if they do they still do it based on supply and demand.

for example in the winter clothes example, there is no centralized authority setting the price of a winter hat for example. the shops or the business owners decide that this year they can sell hats at $X higher than last year based on weather being colder and the demand being higher

Quote
Furthermore, how do different exchanges reach on the consensus for a price? Is it their own algos determining the price on the fly or is it more like a moderator picking on price with a predetermined fluctuation? Or is it more like how remitters reach to a daily price which is close enough to each other (to allure genuine customers, but not as much for an arbitrage)?
no it is how the market will work. the exchanges don't sell bitcoin, the exchanges are just platforms that allow people selling and buying bitcoin to meet each other. and if people on one exchange decide to sell their coins the price goes lower and if they decide to buy more than other places the price goes higher. and if the difference becomes big enough to become profitable then people from other places will come to the exchange with different price and make trades in a way to balance things out.

for example if the price is lower on bitstamp like be $2000 people can go there and buy cheap coins until it comes back up to $2500 like other exchanges.
or if it is higher like $3000 they can go there and sell their coins until it comes down to $2500 like other places.

but it usually doesn't come to that point. if price goes to $2400 for example there will be more incentive by the same people on bitstamp to buy more until it comes up. or the same if it goes to $2600
the difference that you sometimes see is because some exchanges have trouble with deposits or withdrawals or have higher fees that leads to that incentive to trade there to be less.

True, my question is for efficient markets (rather exchanges), whenever they'll be, where there is limited or no scope of arbitrage.

I guess, I should move this to Economics section. How can I move this topic there without deleting the OP? I even tried deleting this post to create a new post in Economics section but this forum does not let me delete my own post. So, am stuck. Any suggestion?
there is a button at the bottom left side of the page called "move topic"
Thanks for pointing that out.
11  Economy / Economics / Re: How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 09, 2017, 08:44:27 PM
All great responses here. But, my question is far more basic. It's not the reason why price fluctuates but how, that I seek an answer for? What is going on under the hood that can show me a price change literally every few seconds for an exchange between any two currencies (crypto/ fiat).

The reason I raise this question is because it's far more difficult to dissect the existing financial system (excluding the recent blockchain market). However, it should be easier to answer such questions for a system that has been written from scratch by only one creator (or maybe a group under the same pseudonym).

So, while all you have given reasons enough to justify the change in price, my question still remains unanswered unfortunately.

In simple language what's yielding price P1 at any time T1 and a P2 at T2? There has to be some place somewhere on this planet that impacts those prices and where it is sourced from? How'll you show the cause and effect to a five year old? In this world where all is mathematical (hashing, ECC etc) I expect an answer far more mathematical which is written somewhere that takes certain input parameters and throws an output consistently which is then sourced by different exchanges that people rely on.

Or is it the leading exchange calculating at their end (in their code) based on the trading volume and that's why not open source? Because, my question presumes that all's open source and there should be clear pointers for these prices P1, P2.. to be derived. They are certainly not popping up magically based on the Economics. Someone has to calculate them somewhere (even when applying all the principles that you have stated)?
12  Economy / Economics / Re: How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 09, 2017, 06:16:40 AM
I guess, I should move this to Economics section. How can I move this topic there without deleting the OP? I even tried deleting this post to create a new post in Economics section but this forum does not let me delete my own post. So, am stuck. Any suggestion?
13  Economy / Economics / How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin? on: July 09, 2017, 06:10:39 AM
How is the price determined for a decentralized currency like bitcoin?

So far, I have got mixed responses from elsewhere including theoretical explanations of supply/ demand, trading bots and on similar lines. But, no answer in simple enough language and with authority that explains the price (thus the volatility) of the cryptocurrencies.

Is this somewhere in the code that takes some input parameters to deterministically reach a price, maybe based on the hashing power, difficulty level etc? Or is it more complex? Can someone please explain the inner workings? My curiosity is only to understand the correlation between cryptocurrencies and the Economics in the absence of a centralized governing/ intervening body.

Furthermore, how do different exchanges reach on the consensus for a price? Is it their own algos determining the price on the fly or is it more like a moderator picking on price with a predetermined fluctuation? Or is it more like how remitters reach to a daily price which is close enough to each other (to allure genuine customers, but not as much for an arbitrage)?
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: ██【ANN】██【 OFFICIAL】██【CHARNACOIN】██ CRYPTONOTE】██ on: July 09, 2017, 05:25:47 AM
How many coins premined?
Already mined 34k blocks?
@JC1DA: curious, how did you find that 34k blocks were mined? or anything about premine/ instamine? care to elaborate please, for the benefit of a newbie?
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