Hi Mnichman,

Thanks for your clear explanations. I feel exactly the same way, and I must say I was more than troubled when the news came out that future market on bitcoin is now allowed. How can one not realize that by allowing it, authorities just show what will now be their strategy : destroy it thanks to greed being so well distributed among human beings ! They won't just "forbid" it, as I read her and there, they're too smart for that ! We now see how bitcoininvestment is EVERYWHERE, on TV, newspapers, etc. It's scary ! The mass is coming in at crazy levels, and when they'll decide it, they will destroy the value. This will make the vast majority of investors run away, and bitcoin might be left with what it should be  : a fantastic monetary device away from the eyes of government. But unfortunately, it might have a value that will not reflect its worth, in complete opposition with what it is today.

So there are still 2 uncertain outcomes :

1. Even if the bitcoin value is destroyed, will it still be used "strongly" to allow it to survive ?
2. What will happen to other currencies (altcoins), which will not be traded with derivatives (bitcoin cash, ethereum, Dash, Monero and others) ? Will the active community move to another currency that can't be rigged ?

I bet we are now quite close to see bitcoin price being slowly more and more manipulated. The price might continue to rise for a few months, letting the mass come in through the new derivative markets. But the time it will crash might just be around the corner...

Thanks for your input again. I believe you're right when you say "This is obviously not the case with real commodities like gold which is a scarce resource". No doubt about that. But then you write "when you run out of gold, the game is over for you". The only doubt I have is : "when is the game over ?". Don't you think it's possible to rigg it by rolling over, month after month, year after year, finally destroying the last gold bugs who surrender and cannot compete anymore. My fear is that this could also happen with bitcoin. I wish I'm just paranoied... But you know, concerning gold, it's well documented that there were many times where gold deliveries could not be made as promised and were just replaced with a "cash deal", just meaning you get a little more money for the gold they can't deliver, and let's rock and roll ! It's just scary...

Gold is not Bitcoin

It can be financially fatal to manipulate gold via gold futures or whatever if your point is about bringing gold prices down. There are plenty of gold bugs waiting to buy physical metal as well as a few governments ready to shell out big way on gold and increase their gold reserves whenever gold price goes down. China and Russia seem to be the most prominent countries in this regard since they make biggest buyers of gold among nations. Obviously, this is not the case with Bitcoin, so the answer to your question should be a huge no, but not in the way you think. They can't manipulate Bitcoin like gold simply because they can't manipulate gold. In other words, the whole premise of your post is entirely wrong
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Thanks for your input. I've been reading a lot of these types of comments, but unfortunately it is certain that ALL prices of ALL markets are manipulated, as soon as central banks are involved. There is not even a discussion about the fact that central banks manipulate markets just by the fact they enter it : when they buy bonds, it is manipulation because a central bank is not a regular player : it has an unlimited access to cash and can in fact never go bankrupt (we witness it since 2008).

What you're saying is that central bank is a regular player, as is any type of investor. I can accept this point of view, and in this case I would agree that at the end, nothing is manipulated at all : you have small players, big ones, and central banks that have an unlimited access to cash. They all access the market, and the truth is THEY are the market. OK, why not ? But if you're right, call it manipulation or not, at the end of the game the last word goes to the player that has unlimited access to cash, to make the market move where it wants. It's a bit like trying to win against a Casino : the only way (and this was proven mathematically) is to have more money than the bank. But in our case, who has more money than the Fed

Basically however you look at it, you are convincing me that the only way bitcoin would definitely not be rigged would be that it should have NO LINK at all with any leverage trading, future market, etc. that allow the rigged cash game to come into play. And this scares me a lot...

Prove me I'm wrong

OK guys, maybe I'm not so clear with my question. Let me reformulate :

The question is this : gold is a sound currency, as is bitcoin. However gold markets were able to be rigged by using future markets or leverage to suppress its price. Now that future markets are available for bitcoin, as is leverage trading, how could it be that bitcoin prices couldn't be also rigged when big players enter the game, like they did with gold ?

If you take a moment to answer, you would make my day :-). Please prove it will not happen...

Thanks for your replies.

"same like CME issuing bitcoin futures" : well that's exactly my point. I know the question has been already addressed, but I still didn't get a clear answer on how bitcoin future markets or even simple leverage trading on bitcoin would be somehow different than what we see with gold future or leverage trading. If someone can explain why bitcoin couldn't be rigged by very big players, as it is with gold market, I would love to read it.

I've even heard the "great" Andreas Antonopoulos answer this question in a conference by simply saying that derivatives are not dangerous if the underlying product is sound. He was of course referring to the rigged money supply controlled by the Fed and explaining that derivatives are in this case very dangerous. But unfortunately no-one in the audience asked him to make a parallel with gold, which in my view is very equivalent. But I'd love to be wrong and if someone can demonstrate me I'm wrong I'd be very happy 😊

Hi all

I need to have maximum opinions about this very important question. I've been reading quite a few articles about this, and didn't find the answers to ease my paranoia about this.

So, let's make it simple : since some time now, it is possible to trade bitcoin derivatives (the same applies for other cryptos, it's not the point). We all (or most of us) know how gold price was able to be manipulated by central authorities thanks to its future market, allowing financial institutions who have access to unlimited supply of cash (thanks to the Fed) to use it to suppress the price of gold.

One of the aspect of bitcoin is that it is a decentralized mean of exchange that can't be printed, as gold is. In some aspect, bitcoin is the digital gold. But if it becomes more and more common to trade bitcoin futures, and if this becomes more and more popular and done through bigger and bigger financial institutions, aren't we facing the exact same problems that we did with gold ? Couldn't it be that the more popular bitcoin becomes (and other cryptos of course), the more financial institutions will be able to rigg the game and finally completely control the price of it, exactly as they did (and still do) with gold ?