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1  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How would a Bitcoin future be better? on: September 25, 2013, 11:22:00 PM
Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money,

Sure they are, they just don't know it because it's hidden from them.  Every time someone pays with a credit card or debit card a significant transaction fee is paid in addition to the cost associated with the risk of chargeback/fraud.  This fee is hidden by the merchant in the purchase price of whatever is being paid for.

most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries,

Perhaps not, bu many of the things that they buy were manufactured or assembled in other countries.  Reducing the cost to the business that is acquiring these items to sell to the consumer can reduce the costs to the consumer without reducing the profits of the merchant.

most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.

Any merchant that accepts electronic payments is concerned about this.  Reducing chargebacks and fraud can reduce costs for the merchant which can be passed on as reduced costs for the consumer.

As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money

This is not necessarily true.  For low value transactions, one confirmation is plenty.  For transactions between trusted parties the transaction can be accepted immediately.

there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with. These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

Possibly, possibly not.  I'd be interested in borrowing your crystal ball if it has a significant level of accuracy in predicting what will happen in the future.


Of course, you're correct that consumers are ultimately paying the cost for the credit card fees that businesses pay, and for credit card chargebacks which businesses might get hit by.  These result in businesses having to charge higher prices for their products to make up for the loss.

If none of these existed in our Bitcoin future, you might see the average person paying 3 or 4% less when they made purchases.  However, we know that at least some of these fees will exist, because there are already transaction costs for any bitcoin transaction.  They're currently very low, but in the future they would likely be higher.  Eventually there will be no more block rewards, and everyone running the network will be doing so in order to get the transaction fees.

I don't think one needs a crystal ball to see that there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards.  People today could store all of their cash in their mattress, or in a box buried in the back yard, but they don't.  One might need to keep one or two thousand dollars in the bank to have enough to cover bills, but any extra money could be stored in cash at home.  But most everyone keeps any excess cash in the bank, where it is safe.  In the same way, bitcoins stored "at home" can easily be lost in a variety of ways.  A Bitcoin bank would be guaranteed by the government, 100% safe, and would pay interest on deposits over a certain amount.

And, let's assume that stores are willing to wait for only one block to go through to confirm a transaction before they let people make a purchase using Bitcoin.  The average block takes 10 minutes (meaning an average wait of 5 minutes), but will regularly be 15 to 30 minutes before it goes through.  No one is going to want to sit in Walmart or in Mcdonalds waiting up to half an hour for the transaction to go through, when they could just use a Bitcoin credit card(or debit card) and have the transaction go through instantly.  Especially when the Bitcoin credit card fees are charged to the business, not to them.  No business is going to want to have everything gummed up by having unhappy customers hanging around the lobby for up to half an hour waiting for transactions to go through, so they'll all take the bitcoin credit cards.

If the Bitcoin protocol could be changed to allow instant transactions, then you could do without bitcoin credit cards, but I'm fairly sure this is not possible.  So, you're guaranteed to have bitcoin credit cards, bitcoin banks, and the various fees involved with them.
2  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How would a Bitcoin future be better? on: September 25, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
How would this be better than our current financial system?

Look at your nearest larger metro area.

What buildings are the tallest?   If that is like most every other larger metro area, then you answered "a large bank or financial institution".

The financial industry is currently nearly 20% of the U.S. economy .... and much larger even in some regions (e.g., NYC).

Where do their incomes comes from?   Of course, from you ..., from me, etc.

Did you or anyone you know pay an overdraft?   That's a fee that does not exist with bitcoin.  

How about a monthly account maintenance fee?   Again, ... unless a third party E-Wallet is assessing a fee, such charges don't exist in Bitcoinland.

So Bitcoin makes it possible that entire parts of the banking and financial industry are no longer needed or are dramatically simplified such that the banks can no longer suck rent from us as they currently do thanks to their regulated monopoly / cartel.



Monthly bank account fees and overdraft fees make up only a small amount of the financial industry's income.  They make their money from making $200,000 home loans and $10,000,000 loans to businesses.  People will obviously still need home loans and business loans in a Bitcoin future.  Included in the financial industry is the stock market and various types of investments and insurance, all of which will still exist.  If it is true that there are no more $10 monthly bank account fees for those with small balances, and no more overdrafts on checks, this will have little effect on the average person.
3  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / How would a Bitcoin future be better? on: September 25, 2013, 09:18:04 PM
There's a common belief in the Bitcoin community that Bitcoin will one day be one of the major global currencies, used as often as dollars and euros, and perhaps THE global currency, completely taking the place of the world's major currencies.  My question is, what would this be like, and in what ways would it be superior to our current situation?

Let's suppose that Bitcoin has taken the place of government currency in many of the world's major countries.  People are using it to conduct business, being paid in it, and so on.  Due to the relatively small number of bitcoins, everything is priced in satoshis.  Vast amounts of computer resources are being used to keep the network going, an enormous amount of electricity going to run the network and chase after the transaction fees and rewards still given each block.

How would this be better than our current financial system?

When I look at the ways in which Bitcoin is commonly said to be superior to government currency, I see the following:  No inflation, low transaction fees, ability to easily transmit money anywhere in the world, no government control of money, no banks controlling money, no chargebacks, possibly anonymous.

For the average person, many of these are going to be irrelevant.  Most people already aren't paying much if anything in the way of transaction fees to transfer money, most people have no need to transfer money to foreign countries, most people aren't too concerned with someone sending them money and then reversing the charges.  As for removing banks, VISA, and so on from the system, this won't actually happen.  In order for a transaction to truly go through, it takes multiple blocks before the receiver of bitcoins can be sure they got the money, and this won't work at all if you're buying a burger and fries or a pair of jeans.  So there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store their bitcoins and which they will use to buy things with.  These will be regulated by the government, and they will charge various fees, just as today's banks and credit cards charge fees to individuals and businesses.  Bitcoin VISA cards will allow chargebacks.

The possible anonymity of bitcoin is one area which could be very different, but I'm not sure it will be.  Again, there will be bitcoin banks and bitcoin credit cards, which is where people will actually store and spend their money, so there's no anonymity there.  In addition, with the blockchain storing every single transaction ever made forever, it's questionable whether there really is any anonymity.  Cash is far more anonymous, although of course cash doesn't work online.  A bitcoin future would more easily allow online black markets.

Probably the one major change I can see which would impact the average person would be the lack of inflation.  The question is, would this be a good thing?

The average person has very little money.  If you're poor, you have no money, and if you're middle class, you still have very little money, but instead your wealth (if any) is stored in your house and some stocks you've invested in for your retirement.  No longer losing 2% to 4% a year of the few thousand dollars (or few thousand dollars worth of bitcoins) you have in the bank is not going to make much difference for the average person.  Few people are actually losing much money due to inflation, since people invest their money and earn a rate of interest at least equal to inflation.

One could make the argument that the entire economic system would be better off without inflation, although this is exactly the opposite of what mainstream economists believe.  It's generally believed that a small amount of inflation is good for the economy, as this encourages everyone to invest money instead of hoarding it under their mattress, which allows those who need money to be able to easily borrow it.  But it may well be that economists are wrong, and an economic system without inflation might be far better.

So, are there other ways which I haven't listed in which a bitcoin future would be better than our current system?  Would we really be better off without inflation, and if so, why?  
4  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Boring old newbie post on: September 24, 2013, 07:55:26 PM
I tried making my first post a bit ago, and was told that there had already been a post from my IP within the last 360 seconds.  As I have no router, clearly there is another person secretly hiding in my house using my internet, with a hidden computer.  I am going to have to assume that he lives under the floorboards, and has tapped into my electricity and cable line.  The only reasonable solution at this point is to begin ripping the floor apart, looking for the intruder.

Or, it may just be that the forum software is mistaken.
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