Hey, i dont say you are wrong, only to teach us what is the (hidden) agenda of the movie in your opinion. If it tries to manipulate us into believing someting, please spell out what that is. I mean something of subtance, related to economic matters, not related to gossip about what a dead president said or not. I would really appreciate your macro view on this subject.

Hugop, as I wrote I am not claiming 100% accuracy of the things I watch or I recommend. But if they can help open our minds, question authority, think for ourselves, and gain a better undertanding of reality, then its worthwile the time.

My conclusions about the monetary system so far come from taking into account not only the financial sector but the whole society. There were so many odd things in the world that I couldnt explain before, and that now look so obvious. Seemingly unrelated things like the direction of ecology, agriculture, medicine, education, media, social values, globalization, wars, the strange supression of progress in so many aspects of technology and society in the last 50 years, and so on. I mean there are common transversal patterns that you can see everywhere that are easy to explain when you start to understand the level of concentration of power in the world, but difficult of impossible to explain using a bottom up approach. Many, I would say too many things in our society are configured top down, by people who dont share 99% of the population values. And there is a tremendous supression of knowledge to keep this world order. Later we give the status quo some false meanings, beacuse we ignore the process of creation. So trusing authorities, whether Austrian School or Keynesianism by itself is not enough. Our model of reality will be always incomplete, but the more diverse information we are exposed to, the closer we get to the truth. In that respect, I feel the movies I shared are far, far closer to reality than many "academic texts", because they explain a broader range of phonemena and they mesh well with other aspects of the way our society is configured.

I belive in an enormous human potential, that I see supressed by the system. Lets work to unleash all the power we have as human species. I think Bitcoin is a cool step in that direction.

We agree on that, Peter Shiff explained it lately. It seems strange though, but NIA seems to have a shady side.

By the way, I dont agree 100% with the movies, not by a long shot, in particular with the solutions they propose in the end, but I find them informative and a fresh perspective to consider.

Hugolp, thanks for caring, but I dont feel extremely deceived after reading your solid and profound arguments about the inner workings of our current monetary system, thanks.  

One point though, if you use so called "academic books" as a measuring stick for "the truth", especially in economics, you will have a rude awakening in the coming years. If you are interested in how independent the "prestigious" economic professors of the top universities are, those who write themost influencial papers, I recommend you watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE. You will learn that many of them are just paid puppets of the financial sector.

On the other hand, if you want to be a good sheep and obbey what authorities teach you without thinking for yourself, go ahead, you will feel more comfortable living that way, no question about it. I rather learn from different sources and think for myself, not giving anyone the authority to say whats true or whats false.

Thanks for the books, I will take a look.

Yeah! The increasing creation of new money by new debt can stop when it reaches an inflection point, but millions of people keep in slavery paying interest on debt already issued! The point is that societies cannot payback debth without contracting the money supply and harming or destroying the economy. This is perverse! With so much leverage caused by the fractional reserve banking even proportionally few people in a society paying back debth and living debth free can literally destroy the whole economy.

Add to this crime the fact that the level of debth is also controlled by the same sociopaths using their central banks by setting the interest rates in a central planing fashion the way communist economies work. Lower the interest rate and increase the money supply. Increase the interest rate and lower the money supply. So with this trick in place, bankers can crash economies at will.

When economies go south, banks get all those houses, cars, furniture, land, that was put as collateral by people getting those debths. What did the banks give in exchange for this tangible wealth? Money out of thin air!

They can buy all for pennies on the dollar when the purchasing power of the rest of the population is worthless due to the contracion of the money supply that they themselves caused.

Lets see this at is is: the current banking system is a parasite leeching money and life energy from the productive population at large, producing wars, controlling media, and concentrating enormous amounts of power that strongly influences the direction in which society develops in their own interest.

Thanks for sharing those details, but how can you prove those quotes were real or not. In which sources do you base your opinion.

But more importantly, discussing this or that quote of a dead president (which neither you nor me can prove), does not add to the central theme of the movie which is to explain how the financial system operates today. Again why dont you share your views on how central banks really work, what is their purpouse, and what misleading concepts about our current financial system you could see in the movie, to get the opinion that it is completely worthless of watching to educate oneselves about money.

Then again, could you teach us which are the historical mistakes and which are the wrong and right reasons to criticize central banks?

You give nothing to the comunity by trashing movies without any subtance. We are all here to learn, if you know something we dont know please explain it in detail, you say you studied central banking so why keep the knowledge to yourself.

By the way, for those interested in other opinions: Money Masters Amazon Reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/Masters-International-Bankers-Control-America/dp/B0018IPKCG
Seems that this issue is quite polarized: 24 x 5 stars, 4 x 1 stars and nothing in between!

It seems to me that you are talking without even having seen the movies! Because of the fractional reserve system, as I understand, if the bank lends me 10 for my house the banking system as a whole can invent 100 or 500 or whathever amount depending the country you live in from that sole lending. So if banks charge 5% for a credit card debth, in reality they are making 50% or more a month. Luckily you get 3% A YEAR if you deposit your money in thouse same banks. If that is not usury then what is. This system is a constant wealth transfer from the common man to the financial sector. If many people pay their debt the whole money supply contracts, until there would be no money left. The system depends on debth, and it will be never stable. It makes the economy dependant on debth so banks can steal. If we owe more, there is more currency available, if we pay debth our economy crashes. There is no way out of slavery. This is ridiculous! I guess you are brainwashed by the mainstream economics lies, as so many people are.  I also gues you will be paying your house mortgage for 30 years and think you did a good business. It seems you live in Spain, so you should learn a bit from the financial problems your country is having right now. You could also see the movies before comenting on them. Also you could learn a bit from Jesus Huerta de Soto, a spaniard too.

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXphcuCfzxw&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVrTCLoRrVw&feature=relmfu

Hmmm.. could you elaborate? Maybe explain to us how currencies are created instead?

Haha, do you mean unless you are mccheese?   On a seriuos side, I wrote a somewhat provocative subject to help draw attention, because I really think this movies are important to watch. I feel there is a strong bias to the computer/tech area in the Bitcoin community (I am also a geek myself), but I think it is important for everyone to learn also the more social/human monetary stuff, which in fact is so much easier to understand than the technical side. The mostly very intelligent people that come to this forum dosent need to be in disadvantage in the monetary/economic knowledge realm. We have the ability to excel there too if we educate ourselves in this matters.

Regards!  

Hi,

I have seen quite a few comments here from people giving opinions about money and currencies in general without any clue on what they are, and how the current system works. To avoid the mistakes of the future, we should learn from history.

Here I post a couple of movies I strongly encourage you to see, to understand how money was born in the past, and how it is created today. If you dont know about this matters, this will change the way you see the world.

Plus you will be able to understand the fundamentals about why Bitcoin is such a powerful concept.

MONEY AS DEBTH
Excelent animated movie explaining the origin of money and the current system where the banks create money out of nothing but debt.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC720Cl3N-0&feature=fvwrel

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUChuUo0ZhY&feature=related

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg5N_QSoojw&feature=related

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjbnqeQKEnM&feature=related

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czZiPkcpL5Q&feature=related


THE MONEY MASTERS- How International Bankers Gained Control of America
Outstanding content of this low budget movie. Its more than 3 hrs in lenght, but it is the best movie I have seen on the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936#


GOLD SILVER DVD
Mike Maloney tries to sell you silver, but his movie is extremly well produced and informative of the way the current monetary system will suffer in the near term, and how sound money can be the key to survive and thrive during the coming times. Of course Mike did not know about Bitcoin when the movie was produced,  but you can apply many of the same concepts of the movie by substituting gold or silver with bitcoins. This movie will also give you a solid historic perspective on sound money.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMwDynuruN4&feature=channel_video_title

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATtxcjM68_A

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYD-ocYju70

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKR5dN35vPM

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm2O_Psh_ag

Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2uxUijQNhg

Part 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OBLMHCbLE

Part 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szv2WSDn98w

Part 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAAIwef3dOg

Part 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5_8lVKHBJc

Part 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL8SbSpucDY

Part 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZEa5MJdrHU

Bittorrent is not a threat to the very source of the power of the economic elites of the world. Currency creation and manipulation is. So expect a 1 million times stronger reaction to something that puts their power in danger.

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits (money out of thin air), and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits (money out of thin air)." — SIR JOSIAH STAMP, (President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws"— Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


Plenty of drugs for the people is part of their agenda, in fact drugs keep the masses content and unconsious in their slavery. Google recent news on big global banks financing drug lords in mexico.




 

Guys, please! There are people who have studied monetary systems for all their life, and they have come to pretty solid conclusions. So dont speculate here, or worse, dont say that definitions dosent matter. Pure speculation and guessing here doesnt helps.

So, this is the correct definition!

Currency and money are very similar and many people think that they are one of the same. However, there is one major difference that separates the two. First, let's obtain a firm grasp of how they are similar. Both currency and money have to be:

-A unit of account
-A medium of exchange
-Portable
-Divisible
-Durable
-Fungible (one coin in my hand has the same value as one coin in your hand)

Money must be all of the above, but has to also be a "store of value" over long periods of time.

Paper is never a store of value  in the long term, because it can be printed at will and only has the value given to it as determined by the issuing government. Also, all paper currencies have failed in the past, that means they have gone to its intrinsic value of zero. Gold and silver have been used as "money" for over 5000 years because it satisfies every requirement stated previously. Once upon a time, the U.S. was on a gold standard. This meant that for every dollar printed, there had to be gold to back it up. Our dollar was considered "money" because of this gold backing. Thus, the phrase "good as gold" was coined (you could redeem your dollars for gold). Gold has to be mined and that process takes time and physical effort.


So by all means, BitCoin could become MONEY! Alas, dollars are not money, only currency! Of course, to become money, Bitcoin still needs prove two things:
-To withstand the test of time (and by so doing becoming a store of value in the long term).
-To become a medium of exchange (it has the potential to be one, but it is still not widely accepted as a medium of exchange in the world).

People, if the technical aspects of Bitcoin prove to be solid, and it becomes a widely accepted medium of exchange, it could not only become MONEY, but the best money the world has known so far, because of its capability to be managed digitally which allows the instant transfer allover the world without any centralized authority.

Of course precious metals will be preferred for more long term security, as bitcoins could be made inoperative worldwide in minutes with any massive attack to the internet, like a nuclear EMP (electromagnetic pulse), or Obamas internet kill switch, for example. Even if we return to the stone age after a nuclear catastrophe, gold and silver would still be money accepted by people, as it does not requiere technology to fulfill its function.

But Bitcoin runs far ahead of gold and other PMs in portability (try to carry a gold bar in your pockets), divisibility (try to cut a gold coin), and the most important one: as medium of exchange (try to send gold overseas in minutes with a click of a button using P2P).

Regards.

Kiba, just google "Gold Manipulation High Frequency Trading" or "high frequency trading scam" to get some ideas.

I dont think that high frequency trading is a scam per-se, but it can turn into one quite easily if used by poweful people with certain goals in mind.

To repeat, if Bitcoin is used massively as a medium of exchange for services and products, then what happens in the currency exchange donsent matter anyways, with or without high frequency trading.

On the other hand, if Bitcoin is used for hoarding/saving/speculation only, and its price is set mainly in a few concentrated places (i.e. currency exchanges like MtGox), this can lead to easy manipulation of price by powerful people who can exert hidden control in this few markets. The main idea behind Bitcoin is distributed economic power to the people, not a few crooks in the dark setting prices and controling the fate of the currency.

By the way, I dont condemn saving/hoarding bitcoins. This is a very valuable quality of sound money, to be able to serve as a store of value. I am only predicting the failure of Bitcoin if we cannot make it a popular medium of exchange for goods and services.

noagendamarket, I think you dont understand the problem I describe.

Of course dishonesty and corruption exists. But If leave the door of my house open there is a bigger chance of inviting a burglar than if I leave it closed.  

The main point I describe is about getting the value and power of money distributed among the population, vs letting it being concentrated in few hands. Why dont learn from the problems of the past, and dont make the same mistakes again, like letting a couple of people manipulate the makets of gold and silver so easily. With some simple measures, the concentration of power using bitcoin could be made much less easy.

Regards.

EDIT: Summary. Lets address the long term prospect for Bitcoin. If we let Bitcoin degenerate into a speculative/saving medium only, and do not promote its use as a popular medium of exchange for good and services, the price of Bitcoin will be mainly determined in a few concentrated market places called Currency Exchanges (like MtGox) which could easily be co-opted by powerful elite crooks to manipulate the price of Bitcoin and control its fate (i.e. kill its potential, and kill the whole project). Remember that decentralized currencies are a threat to the powerful economic elites of the world (i.e. central banks, banks, military industrial complex, etc), so they will have interest in controlling/destroying them. This has happened already with gold and silver, the only decentralized sound money so far. By setting the price of such a currency in only a few places we are inviting disaster. Instead, if we manage to get Bitcoin to be a massive medium of exchange globaly for goods and services, the economic power will return to people in a decentralized manner, and the manipulations in Currency Exchanges will have no impact to the price of Bitcoin. The real purchasing-power of Bitcoin will be determined democratically worldwide by millions of transactions of real goods and services daily, and not by a few crooks behind the scenes in a manipulated marketplace. The only reason gold and silver went out of circulation was because the elites confiscated them in some period of history, and later managed to manipulate its price behind the scenes in order to make them unattractive to investors. The only protection against this fate is buying and selling with bitcoins, and not letting Bitcoins rest in a savings account only. Confiscation of Bitcoins would be next to impossible. Making Bitcoins illegal will be for sure a very big temptation for the elites, but it would be very difficult to explain why, plus it would give Bitcoins lots of free publicity. The only option remaining for them is covert action, and we can prevent this by not letting the price of Bitcoin be set in a few places that can be easily controlled, but be distributed among the masses.

- - -

Hi,

Guys, I am a huge fan of bitcoin, I am investing some of my money in it. If all the technical aspects of the system pass the test of time, it could really be something phenomenal for the world.  

Said that, I like to play the devils advocate and discuss ways in which bitcoin could be damaged from the outside. If bitcoin works as planned from the technical point, it’s an obvious threat for all the people who benefit greatly from fiat currency creation and manipulation as a way to transfer wealth from a big part of the productive population to a small part of the parasite population.

Obvious beneficiaries of the fiat system are: Central banks owners, commercial banks, and polititians. But also the rest of the industries controlled by the same financial elite, that where co-opted to keep the social order compatible with all this stealing: military industrial complex, mass media, oil and energy generation and distribution, many government agencies, and so on.

As said, decentralized and democratic money like bitcoin is a threat for the power of this elites, but so is gold and silver. What this people have done to counteract this threat is to bring gold, silver, and other sound money out of the system of trade by using different techniques. Also, lets be fair, sound money like gold and silver is not very useful for day to day transaction in a digital economy.

I am sure if successful, bitcoin will be subjected to the same threats of silver and gold as sound money. For example if bitcoin don’t take off as a common medium of exchange for day to day products and services transactions, and is only used for preserving wealth (hoarding), like gold is, then the financial elite will try to co-opt exchanges like MTGox and the like, to take control of them and use the high frequency trading scam to bring the price of bitcoin to whatever price they like, as they have successfully done with gold and silver for decades. And by doing so, discouraging people to save their hard earned money in gold and silver, and instead put all that value in the fiat scam controlled by them. So bitcoin would be threatened sooner or later if used primarily as gold.

On the other hand, if bitcoin takes off as a day to day exchange mechanism, it would be the best possible scenario, because the manipulation would be so much more difficult. There would be no centralized place to do the price manipulation, as the real purchasing price of bitcoins would be in effect distributed democratically in the millions of daily transactions using bitcoin as a medium of exchange for real products and services.

The conclusion is that making bitcoin a popular transaction mechanism for the world economy must be a priority for all of us who want to see bitcoin succeed in the long run. I see it doomed if otherwise. Using bitcoin just for saving money has no long term future. Of course bitcoin is so much better for day to day transactions than gold or silver in our digital world, that it runs with enormous advantages in this area.

Please comment on these ideas.

Hola, me interesa comprar BTC pagando en pesos chilenos. Si tienes BTC para vender en Chile dejame un PM.

Saludos,
F