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From our tests and research so far your system will probably work until it doesn't. I.e, there will always be malicious actors looking to break it without the correct incentives not to. The biggest danger would be external griefing attacks from those that don't care about your platform. Assuming the token or stake is tradable, it's likely a large enough quantity could be bought that you have some sort of sybil or 51% attack on the voting system.
Ok so, the tokens (ZCH) you are able to pre-purchase instead of paying the posting fee while saving a new message to the ledger are freely tradeable. However, those tokens don't add to your overall voting rights. I'm sure with enough evil intend there will be people coming up with the most entertaining ways to try and break the voting system. So your research was as good as ours; it works until it doesn't. But as you can see in the whitepaper we reserve the ability to change the entire moderation contract so we can update it or completely change it with new routines as time goes on. We're currently figuring out a good way for the users to be notified in advance if a change is upcoming and how to integrate them into the process of voting the change in or out. There are other projects out there other than us of course, so the final answer may be elsewhere for you guys. Assuming we attain a large enough juror pool and dispersion of tokens, it makes it harder to break. I guess if you manage to disperse the tokens in a nice manner this will mitigate but the griefing of an actor with reasonable funds is hard to stop. Our mechanism against this is forking but I'm not sure if you've considered that.
The point of 0xchan is not to amass riches. The dividends functionality exists to basically repay people their posting fees over time. I'll crunch some numbers during the weekend but from what I have in mind your spending/earning ratio is so out of whack that it makes no sense to collect massive amounts of ZCH just to gain dividends. The cryptoeconomic game: It's a tough one.
It is. But it's also a fun and interesting one. In 2018 alone more economic models have been tested in record time thanks to various blockchains, than we could ever try in "real world" economics. Gotta appreciate that. Appreciate all the answers here and yep, what a year for cryptoeconomics. My points about the forking wasn't intended to work as a way to amass riches but your token needs some sort of value as an intrinsic defence of the platform. Without that, it'll just descend into farce and spam. So, x100 on ZCH is not something anyone is touting or looking for (well me anyway) but some sort of value would be beneficial. I'd need to give it some though but DAI may have a usecase for you here also. Keep up the good work. |
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Yeah, users would be moderating themselves but using our own platform which you can integrate for free and take advantage of a pool of users already fully decentralized. You could have a 0xchan subcourt for example, with fees / rewards etc governed by your users. We as a project don't have any say in the resolution of case.
How did you plan to go about it at your end?
Every user who has a stake in the system is capable of voting. We call this "Proof of Sortition", where only people are being pulled into a draft that are actually using the system and are voting in their own interest rather than external voters who do it for monetary compensation alone. At least that's how we envision it'll work out but I guess we'll see long term if that even works at all or if users are starting to try and fuck each other over. From our tests and research so far your system will probably work until it doesn't. I.e, there will always be malicious actors looking to break it without the correct incentives not to. The biggest danger would be external griefing attacks from those that don't care about your platform. Assuming the token or stake is tradable, it's likely a large enough quantity could be bought that you have some sort of sybil or 51% attack on the voting system. There are other projects out there other than us of course, so the final answer may be elsewhere for you guys. Assuming we attain a large enough juror pool and dispersion of tokens, it makes it harder to break. I guess if you manage to disperse the tokens in a nice manner this will mitigate but the griefing of an actor with reasonable funds is hard to stop. Our mechanism against this is forking but I'm not sure if you've considered that. The cryptoeconomic game: It's a tough one. |
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The original idea was to let users moderate themselves and have them carry out their own disputes. Depending on how our test-net fares we may need to adjust certain factors, but overall we'd like to keep this as stand-alone as possible. Cheers for reaching out though. Appreciate what you're creating for the blockchain.
And no, it's not a marketing offer!
Huh, weird. Sure, will PM you. I won't send nudes tho, sorry. [/quote] Hey, thanks for the reply. No need for nudes, unless they're really dank. Yeah, users would be moderating themselves but using our own platform which you can integrate for free and take advantage of a pool of users already fully decentralized. You could have a 0xchan subcourt for example, with fees / rewards etc governed by your users. We as a project don't have any say in the resolution of case. How did you plan to go about it at your end? |
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Interesting and good timing; I would suggest to expand the whitepaper a bit.
Thank you. The whitepaper is constantly being worked on, refined and expanded so check back every now and then to see if there is an update for it. A TL;DR of the updates can be found on the last page where we prepared a changelog. If you have any specifics you'd want to see in it, feel free to share your ideas. We're open for input. Glad to hear this. Also, can you PM me? I tried to message you but your settings don't allow it. And no, it's not a marketing offer! |
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Nice. Really looking forward to this guys.
If you're looking for some full decentralized janitors (to clean up the curated list on potential disputes) get in touch with us at Kleros. We already have a working Dapp doing this.
I guess even with the large deposit stakes for posting, you're still going to get griefing attacks. Pizza, Gore on SFW boards etc.
We'd love to help and good luck with the project.
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Thanks very much! For a full run down on what we've been doing all these weeks and months, follow us on our Blog or join our TelegramThanks for the support and get involved with our Doges on Trial pilot also! |
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Doges on Trial: Kleros’ Launch on MainnetTesting the Cryptoeconomics of Decentralized Justice.
We are happy to announce that Kleros will launch on the Ethereum mainnet on Tuesday July 31st! Kleros proposes a completely innovative way of doing dispute resolution, a method based on game theory to generate economic incentives for jurors to rule cases honestly and on blockchain to guarantee security in the process (to learn more, read our white paper). Doges on Trial, our first cryptoeconomic experiment on the Ethereum mainnet, is based on Kleros’ curated list application, a key area of research within the decentralized ecosystem. Read more and find out how you can participate below: https://medium.com/kleros/doges-on-trial-kleros-launch-on-mainnet-f93ff88ae9a
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I like the project and the idea. I wish you good luck and I join the Telegram!
Thanks to you both and look forward to speaking to you there too! |
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Kleros’ Token Sale is Over: the Next Chapter Begins“A journey of one thousand miles begins with a single step”. Lao Tze. On Sunday 15th of July at 3:30pm UTC, Kleros’ token sale came to an end. It was the first one ever to be conducted with the Interactive Coin Offering protocol (IICO), a new mechanism advocated by Vitalik Buterin and Jason Teutsch to make token sales more fair and egalitarian. Here are some key facts:
The sale ran for two months, from May 15th to July 15th.
160,000,000 PNK (16% of the total tokens) were sold to 218 contributors.
The total amount contributed was 5794 ETH.
267 ETH were voluntarily withdrawn from the sale.
11 ETH were automatically refunded after the valuation of the project exceeded the personal cap selected by the contributor.(We will soon publish a more detailed post with an analysis of user behavior in the first IICO ever). Now that the sale is over, our immediate next step is Kleros’ launch into the mainnet and conducting our first cryptoeconomic experiment (details will be announced soon). Now that you’ve bought your PNK, you will be able to participate as a juror (if you want to keep updated with the launch, sign up here). As we have explained, revenue from the sale will be used to move forward with our development roadmap, our research roadmap and the building of an ecosystem of companies and arbitrators that will leverage Kleros’ technology. In this crazy world of ICOs, we are proud to have conducted our token sale with integrity and transparency. We didn’t do any private pre-sale with deep discounts, we used a fair token sale strategy (to learn more, see this), and we presented a working MVP before the end of the sale (see this walkthrough by our dev Sam). We hope our experience with the first IICO will also contribute to setting higher standards for all the ecosystem. The IICO contract was written by Clément Lesaege, Kleros’ CTO, and the team made the interface design and implementation (to learn more, go here). Other projects can use our code for their own token sales, should they choose the IICO route (Interested? Contact us). As Chinese philosopher Lao Tze said: “A journey of one thousand miles begins with a single step”. A huge thanks to all of you who walked with us this first step and hopefully you’ll keep walking with us in the miles to come.
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How many ICO rounds you will have? And when last round ends? Why people must invest on ICO if there are no any profit, because you will have other rounds in future?
There is not a set amount but 66% of all tokens are allocated to the public sale however, we may allocate more to juror incentives as stated in our communication. In regards to 'profit' that's not for us to speculate on. People 'must' not do anything, it's completely up to the participant how they view our project. |
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Kleros and Market Protocol announce PartnershipDerivatives are almost as old as mankind itself. The first-ever options trade in recorded history can be traced back to the 6th century B.C. In his book Politics, Aristotle relates how Greek philosopher and mathematician Thales made an option type-agreement with olive producers when he deposited a small sum to have the right (but not the obligation) of buying olives at a low price... Read more:
https://medium.com/kleros/kleros-market-protocol-partnership-announcement-8610a9b94271
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Crowdsourcing taps into a global pool of jurors. Blockchain technology guarantees evidence integrity, transparency in jury selection and incentives for honest rulings.
Very much this yes. The legal field is some what stagnant in terms of innovation and very much looks like it did two centuries ago where as other fields have progressed significantly. Best regards! |
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#NEWPOST The Future of JusticeHow the Blockchain and Artificial Intelligence will Transform the Legal Industry. “If a nineteenth-century lawyer used a time machine to come to the 21st century and wanted to work today, he would hardly notice a difference. However, that same lawyer would not understand anything that happens outside the court”. Read more here:https://medium.com/kleros/the-future-of-justice-a00ed92e04d5
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Hey, guys,
I read that the mainnet should be launched in July but I don't understand because I also read that Pinakion will be an ERC20 token.
Maybe it will start as a token erc 20 and then switch to another system ?
It refers to the MVP running on mainnet not our own 'mainnet' coin or anything. Anything else just ask of course. |
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Why Kleros Needs a Native Token?The Pinakion (PNK), a crypto-token for creating the right incentives and preventing Sybil attacks.At Kleros we are building a blockchain-based, crowdsourced dispute resolution platform. An essential part of the mechanism design is the native pinakion token (PNK).
For each dispute that is arbitrated by Kleros, some number of jurors are required. A jury as small as three people may provide an initial ruling of a dispute. Then if one of the parties decides to appeal the ruling, the number of jurors in subsequent rounds increases.
PNK holders can stake their token in a Kleros court to indicate their availability to serve as jurors. Read the full article here. https://medium.com/kleros/why-kleros-needs-a-native-token-5c6c6e39cdfe
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The Kleros gamedrop is a way to both test the Schelling Point, educate users and have some fun.Users are also able to win PNK by voting coherently! Basically, the Schelling Point allows a consensus to be reached between people who do not know each other and have no means of communication with each other. This concept was described by Thomas Schelling in “The Strategy Of Conflict”. He received the Nobel Prize for Economics for this work. A famous American television program “Family Feud” is based on this idea. It’s about finding the most popular answers for a given question.
Learn more and try ' The Schelling Game' below.
https://game.kleros.io/
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NEWPOSTKleros and Mob Justice: Can the Wisdom of the Crowd Go Wrong?
Comparing Schelling Point Justice to Traditional Justice"In Kleros, we resolve disputes through crowdsourcing. Specifically, we randomly select a group of jurors that rule on the case. To incentivize the jurors to be honest, they are rewarded or penalized based on whether or not they are coherent with the vote of others.
The basic idea is that, if you don’t have any information on how the other jurors are going to vote, you think that they are more likely to be honest than not. " William George Blockchain and cryptoeconomics researcher for Kleros leads the discussion. https://medium.com/kleros/kleros-and-mob-justice-can-the-wisdom-of-the-crowd-go-wrong-ef311209ea36
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