Concerning the price we got hashboards, you're right, I understand your concerns, I know how the market is. I'm not crazy or believe in unicorn, just I was not saying everything. We have already partnered before bull market with an industrial miner, the hardware is secured at lower price ..., he's commiting long term with us as we plan to send him our clients boards during summer if they want to (additional nursering service, don't know yet how much we charge, probably not a lot more than posting the hashboards and integration, it can boost the uptime, it's still in early stage discussion) We're lagging as fuck in our communication, we produce content everyday and people are asking more basic questions that you can have here, we have to prioritize.

Concerning price of living, I understand based on this data that all of this makes no sense for you. I assure you its way higher than that for houses. Electricity heating with independant radiators is very common (french government went full nuclear during De Gaulle era, and electricity heating was heavily pushed by public utility company)

For a 90 square meter (1000 sq ft) you pay for a 2000 era house 150€ per month of electricity. When you go higher than 170 square meter you approach 300€ per month. A lot of houses are 1970 era, it's insanely higher. Gas network is best, but concern 25% of cities in France. LPG and fuel is heavily taxed.
Same living space in square meters can have drastically different consumptions. We do these studies all day long with our first product which is B2B and concern hot water, we know that stuff.

I don't know from where your datas come from, surely it's accurate for flat in Paris with gas heating.

No, real estate investors will not force the miner to run if not needed, he don't have access to the boiler settings (temp control, on/off), and the tenants don't have access to mining settings (pools, ...). I said you have to take into account uptime, it's not 100% for 5 S19, in a yearly basis it's around 70% (0 at summer, 100 at winter) for a big house (200 square meters is considered big in France   ) Otherwise, you better have to put 3 or 4 S19. Electricity price is 0,175 €/kWh in France, for Germany I think it's very costly. If there is a swimming pool to heat at summer or a nursering option for your hashboards during summer, we're closing the gap with regular miners.

Thank you for your feedback, yes it needs to be lower in price for attracting more people, in a way people that can buy today give us money to go further, and rise more capital. But Bitcoin is still nascent, so the opportunity is awesome. If you mined with 5 hashboards of S9 (it's only 2000W of power) from 2017 to 2021, you will get a whole bitcoin today heating your home. It's factual, it happened.

I assume in 20 years if this kind of product is mainstream, the price will be affordable but the opportunity will be lower as well. It's like buying Bitcoin at 100k, you have probably still some room for capital gain, but you missed the bigger part of the opportunity.

No it's not 20k to 25k. What you are talking about is the price of 5* S19 pro ASICs. Each one have 3 hashboards. We uses 5 hashboards not 5 complete antminers. Its around 7500$ to 9000$.


Well, if you guys are so convinced that "without having to do any math" it doesn't work, I am short of arguments with you and won't answer further.

For those that prefer maths like I do, here my arguments. You have to understand that mining while heating is an opex to capex transfer comparing to "traditional" mining. On one side you reduce the opex as you can consider energy that you will spend anyway (heating at home) does not have to be counted twice in your personal P&L accounting if mining is the source of your heating. (or you can sell the heat in an industrial context). Yes, you have to see if there is differences in "useful" $/kWh (please acknowledge efficiency of systems) between electricity and your previous source (fuel, gas, ...) It's not usual, but I think some places like Quebec have electricity cheaper than fossile fuel. (hydropower)

But on the other side, you will pay an extra for the hardware that concentrate and transfer heat properly. In our case, a boiler stands and operate for 20 years, NOT 4-5 YEARS like mining hardware, the annual depreciation of the mining boiler is 450$ a year (9000$/20years). The annual depreciation of the hashboards is 1500 $ a year (7500$/5years).

(Note that ASIC prices were lower 6 month ago ..., some people gave me S9 for free after halving)

Its why we sell hashboards seperataly. they don't have the same depreciation as the boiler. it's not for scaming people, its clearly said on our website that asics needs to be paid later. we also don't sell asics when we know that we will not run them for 6 months (it's a presale), we clearly have incentives to wait until the "last" moment for prices to go lower as they always do.

Your goal is to know if, on a yearly basis : earnings of mining*Uptime +/- (differences of prices of energy source in $/kWh * kWh spent in the year) - annual depreciation of the special boiler - annual depreciation of hashboards > 0

uptime = percentage lower than 100% in case of not mining allyear at full capacity, we advise against putting to much power so that uptime stay in the 60 to 80% zone. It's why it's better to keep your old heat generator for peak consumption.

(careful I'm speaking in the case you only mine what you need for normal heating, if you open windows during winter by purpose, all collapse)


For a classic miner the equation is more like : earnings of mining - electricity costs  - annual depreciation of hashboards > 0 (let's say the fixes costs are negligeable to simplify, they are not).


Now, unsurprisingly, our first clients own swimming pools in temperate climate (all year uptime: 80 to 90 due to constant needs) or are real estate investors/companies.... But it's not always necessary conditions !

Yes, real estate investors want to install Sato so the tenants pay the electricity bill and they get the bitcoins. Is it "fair" ? I'm not to judge, tenants don't choose the boiler and energy sources, and they have the choice to opt out if the cost of heating is too high before entering the property. I'm passing the details on how we manage tenants/owner duality on the system or how to change or secure hashboards.

Now the equation for them is : earnings of mining*Uptime - annual depreciation of the special boiler (450$) - annual depreciation of hashboards > 0

Do I need to go further ? They don't pay electricity, AT ALL ...........

So no it's not for "rich people who wants to have fun and don't need profitability"
Yes I understand it's not for everyone, and I'm not complaining about our margin and cost of productions, it'm just stating facts. It's common in hardware to start with Model S for a niche, and expand with model 3 (and soon cheaper). It's on our roadmap to address more people, with a cheaper product in few years.

About my attitude, well, I'm not your waiter, I don't make money from your tips by being polite.
Nassim Nicholas Taleb has a terrible character, still he sold millions of copies oh his books.
I had raised capital many times, so despite my character, I'm probably at selling. I surely prefer to sell to investors.
I'm  usually not that harsh with people unless they trash what I do. This attitude of calling everything a scam, and keeping doing it just because you wanted to be right when most of doubts are cleared up is a plague, especially on this forum. (you will notice my first message's tone was nicer) I'm smurfing an account but was here from 2013, so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not looking for customers here, it's the temple of DIY (I have nothing against it), with a lot of smart tinkerers, I'm not that surprised that you will say that you can do the same for 500$.

I did it to.




We tried more :
Monophasic immersion, Bi-phasic immersion, cold plates ....

But Sato is not that kind of stuff. It's another league entirely.

It's mining while riding the Pressure-Temperature (P-T) diagram of the 3M biphase liquid. At start you mine under a partial vaccum which lower the boiling point, so you have a starter effect, you're ready to heat quickly (you start heating the hot water tank after reaching the boiling point.) But if needed we let the pressure rises so the boiing point goes higher than the atmospheric one. (sometimes needed for boosting heat transfer) 3M engineers lost their shit when we explained what we do, no one do this in the space at our knowledge, they helped us a lot.

We started to work on our own hashboards (not the chips, just the board) so we can optimize the capital installed in different tank capacity for different needs. (you pay per chips) Nowadays one hashboards is 1000W, we need 500W boards, 300W boards. In our product you can swap hashboards, most models, you can mix them with our "hot-swap" technology (it's just standard interfacing and casing really). No dust, no fucking noise, complete silence. In terms of security components (you don't want your hashboards to burn, or the tank to explode) we are working with thermowatt, they are one of the best in that space, absolute leaders in this industry. We R&Ded a custom design.

The hot water and heat exchangers are industrial grades, not consumer, obviously it's stainless steal, it's 20 years warranted (something I have to add on our website, but trust me here, we're just passing through our standard supplier warranty). Everything which is not electronic is warranted 20 years. There is no pump, no fans, the 12V power supply is immersed ofc. We use an industrial programmatic logic controller for the heat and power management, it costs 3X to 5X a raspberry Pi, but you don't want to mess with that with a Pi or an Arduino.
Every Sato is autonomous, no central server, we can't reach them at distance, we can't control them, we can't even say if you used it, how much you mined, in case some suit comes to us and ask us about you. At first it will need to connect to a centralized pool. As soon as we got critical mass, we go fully decentralized, every mining boiler/radiator/furnace/heat pump being a full node, doing candidate blocks.

Maybe it explains better why for now it's a 8000$ to 10000$ "boiler" (a complete PV solar installation will cost the same if you have a big area to cover + batteries + ..., at least we should compare our product with something that make money to be intellectually honest..., not a dumb hot water tank). Trust me, I dream to make this stuff for less than 2000$ and it's possible, as boilers/radiators/..../even air conditioning (with thermochemical cooling, you make cold with heat) are mass market products with millions of units sold every year.

Honestly I'm not concerned with our sales or capital needs at the moment. But I'm concerned with finding talented people, and I know there are a lot here, so if you are excited by this product and with engineering/coding or even operations/supply chain/marketing, pls DM me. Otherwise I can answer questions if you're capable of going through the "muh you can't make money with this !!!" test. I already spent to much time on this matter, and I have nothing to add to convince you.

You know I'm not saying it's for everyone at this price and we're totally fine with it.

It's for homeowners having more than 170 square meters houses, in temperate climate, with water based space heating, with no access to city gas network, so they have to rely on LPG or fuel boilers (prices is similar to electricity per kWh), having a swimming pool or a photovoltaic solar panels is a big plus.

In that case you have best chances to be really profitable, otherwise it depends. If you have any doubt about profitability, we published on our discord every ROI tools in Excel, openOffice, GoogleSheet formats. Feel free to challenge it, we're transparent about what, it will just make our tools more accurate and help more people.

About the price and the Viessmann comparison => lol

Man with their sales volume I can make Sato for less than 2000 €, easily. Its how hardware works.

But the prototype you saw in the video I just posted cost us around 5000 €  We aim to produce 100 units for this presale. At that volume it will cost us slightly the same.  It gives us 3000 € per Sato of gross margin. But we have to pay our talented people and we want to grow our team up to 10 persons. (because we won't stop here, we have a vision). So stop your "fair" value bullshit. Based on thermodynamics, scenario analysis and backtesting, either you make money and bitcoins and cover the cost, or you don't. Nobody forces you to buy, we tried our best to give you the tools.

But if you prefer to stay poor with the Viessmann product (they are good, but they don't mine bitcoins as far as I know), be my guest, and have fun with it 

We already spent hours with clients, and already sold few units in a private sale. We are absolutely confident that what we're doing is awesome for some people. Our endgame of course is to make it profitable for everyone, with more volume it's possible, but we have to start somewhere, so I'm really sorry for flat owners or if you have air-based space heating systems. We will address this market later.

Hi. Not a scam, https://youtu.be/fTP9L04BZJw It's an early prototype. We will disclose more soon, most of the product will be release as open hardware.

It's not a water heater it's a boiler also for space heating. More common in Europe than air-based heating system you got in North America. If you want to use it for hot water or washing dishes only, it's not for you, it's that simple. It goes well with swimming pools.

I'm curious to listen to the "big design deficiencies"

Ask any questions, I'm running this project.