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If losing money is of great concern, then don't mine, this is a speculative activity. Personally, I do it because it's fun. I'm a big economics/monetary theory nerd. I also write software for a living, and bitcoin is probably the most profound use of technology/software in decades.
So my answer to you: if you think bitcoin is cool and you have fun mining and can afford the hardware, then go for it. If you're in this purely for profit, well, i really have no advice for you. Just know this isn't a guaranteed path to riches.
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I have two asus 5770's running on stock Ubuntu 11.04. aticonfig can read the gpu temps just fine, but these stats don't appear in cgminer. I've tried numerous versions of cgminer, AMD sdk's, all with the same results.    Anyone have any ideas what's causing this? |
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It will be interesting if bitcoin ever gets picked up on the FOREX exchanges, those guys are used to making highly leveraged trades, which isn't directly possible with bitcoin. Until then I wouldn't expect it to trade like a normal currency.
Why aren't leveraged trades possible? I can leverage-trade myself right now by getting a loan in USD and buying BTC with that money. What kind of leverage are you talking about? I'm just musing about how they'd probably create some kind bitcoin options, similar to the way options trading works for precious metals on the COMEX where the paper markets seemingly exceed the actual physical amounts in existence by several orders of magnitude. |
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With all the fucking pyramid scammers and other bullshit things happening in the world of bitcoin, this is nothing more than a hiccup, and props to Atlas for realizing he made an error and admitting so.
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It will be interesting if bitcoin ever gets picked up on the FOREX exchanges, those guys are used to making highly leveraged trades, which isn't directly possible with bitcoin. Until then I wouldn't expect it to trade like a normal currency.
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Offload it for what? Cash? If you have to take your money to a special store to exchange it for cash, it's hardly money.
This argument is nothing but semantic masturbation. 1) I don't see any popularity/circulation criteria in the definition of money. It seems like people are holding up some weakly defined concept and calling it "money" and applying it like a badge of honor upon certain mediums while using it as a club to smash other mediums, within the context of their own narrow idealogical definitions. 2) If you want to play that game, there are 348 merchants in the DFW area alone ( http://www.opencurrency.com/directory/marketplace/regmerch3.php?rid=135 ) that accept AOCS rounds (gold/silver/copper) in exchange for goods and services. 3) From a historical perspective, if you find "money" in a box that's been buried for 200 years, and have to take it to a special store to exchange for cash (ie, a collector of historic memorabilia), it's hardly money. |
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Take action to corrects this problem by requiring people to verifiy their age or remove the offending images or I will be forced to report this site for violations of the law. You have 72 hours to take action. If you want to expose yourself to $50,000 fine and/or 6 months in jail its your choice. It should be noted that the posters might be just as liable as the forum operators.
You need to be freaking banned, it's one thing to point out possible illegal activity that can get the site into trouble, but threatening the site operators to "turn them in" and issuing a deadline/ultimatum, just shows you don't appreciate the community. IMO, u need to GTFO.. |
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I like it! Surprised to see so many blocks being found by solo miners... (I'm assuming that's what the blank fields are). |
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This thread turned my average morning into a good one.  |
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At this difficulty level with this exchange rate a 5830 will never pay for itself. Hence why I'm not buying any, and probably also why not a lot of other people are either, and thus why they're still in stock.
So, you're saying that people are going to stop buying mining hardware all together? Or is there another video card set up that can get you 1-1.2ghs for ~$450-500 ? Just be quiet and agree with him, less competition for you =). |
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Do people seriously think that gold trades at nearly $1600/oz because you can fashion jewelry out of it?
You would be amazed how many things around you contain gold. The amount of gold in a typical cell phone is around 0.001 ounces ( http://www.eoearth.org/article/Cell_phone_recycling?topic=49558). At today's prices this is about $1.50 worth of gold. If it made sense to use copper or silver instead of gold they would. I imagine there is a lot of gold contained in Bitcoin mining rigs. Anyway, gold has an incredible number of uses, and if it were cheaper it would be used in lots more things. However, gold is so expensive that it is only used in the rare occasions when it can bring more value than its current $1500 per ounce price tag. Making gold plated jewelry is one very popular way for a very small amount of gold to go a long way covering the surface of a cheap base metal to give it a shiny gold luster with the amazing tarnish and corrosion resistant properties and of gold. There are around 83 million of ounces of gold mined each year and the population of the world is around 6.8 billion so doing the math you realize that each year only around 0.012 ounces of gold are being mined per person per year. I don't mean to be a commercial for gold, but I do want to convey that gold is extremely rare and has many commodity uses even at these high prices. There are reasons people have valued gold for thousands of years and it isn't because they are stupid and under some kind of magical shiny object spell cast on the world by bankers. Gold can't be used as an example of money that does not need a commodity use to have value because gold has a tremendous number of commodity uses even at the current high prices. I prefer to look at it in a more relative fashion, because compared to other industrial metals such as silver, nickel, or copper, gold has far less industrial/commodity demand. But this is somewhat orthogonal to my point that the current price of gold is not a function of it's use value as a commodity, it wasn't an increase in commodity demands that drove the price from $300 to $1500 oz in the last decade. It was monetary demand, primarily fueled by reckless government spending. Having your money tethered to industrial uses is not a good property for a currency, the price of silver dropped like a stone when the US economic downturn hit, mainly because the demand for it as an industrial metal fell as the auto manufacturing industry suffered. A good store of value shouldn't have this kind of tight coupling with industrial production, it should function independently, and that's why gold is a better store of value than silver, altho that's not to say silver is not also a store of value, or a great investment vehicle for someone who sees market opportunities. |
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"Bitcoins have no non-monetary use-value.", therefor bitcoins are not money. I keep seeing this meme everywhere, including from smart people, including Austrian-style thinkers and some libertarians. Now personally, I'm nothing more than an armchair economist at best, but this idea that money has to have some form of significant use-value outside of money seems downright ridiculous. Do people seriously think that gold trades at nearly $1600/oz because you can fashion jewelry out of it? I can fashion jewelry out of a lot of things besides gold.
Apparently a lot of otherwise smart people believe this, and I find it somewhat disheartening that this is so widely believed.
If anything, having non-monetary use-value is not a good property for money, because the value/supply of money then becomes tethered to industrial demand.
I'm not very well read, I'm loosely familiar with Keynes, Hayek, Von Mises, but I've never read any of their works or any other major economic works for that matter. I started Hazlitt's economics in one lesson, but didn't get very far. Can somebody please point to some well known scholarly work that frames this argument a bit more elegantly than I can?
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It's fundamental economics, specifically Greshams Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_lawCITE: "This law applies specifically when there are two forms of commodity money in circulation which are required by legal-tender laws to be accepted as having similar face values for economic transactions. The artificially overvalued money tends to drive an artificially undervalued money out of circulation and is a consequence of price control." If people have to choose among different types of money they spend the "artificially" overvalued money and hoard "the real money". And looking at bitcoins, they actually have several advantages over paper money. Dead on, I was going to reply with this but you beat me too it. There's another project called AOCS ( http://www.opencurrency.com/) that uses precious metals to transact with. Their suggested solution for Gresham's law is to ask the merchants give a slight discount to people who use AOCS approved coinage vrs dollars. I think the same strategy could work well for merchants with bitcoins. |
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Can someone explain to my why 6990's... from what I've read you can get about 700 mHash out of them which is no doubt a good rate but that's still $1.06 mHash, seems like there are cheaper options?
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I've been seeing this theme a lot, where people think that bitcoins are somehow not a fair system, since the early adopters have a lot more bitcoins accrued than newcomers.
To me this is nothing but stupid greed.. it's like being pissed off that you didn't get apple stock when they first IPO'd, so now it's 1998, the iMac is about to come out, and you don't want to invest because by doing so you'll just further enrich the lucky (or enlightened) few that got in at a better price, when there is plenty of upside potential on the horizon.
I'm a newcomer, I've got less bitcoins currently than I have fingers, and it doesn't bother me in the *slightest* that the early-adopters have been rewarded for their forethought and risk-tolerance. They deserve to profit, because without them bitcoin wouldn't be what it is today. Free markets reward good ideas. I may be slightly late to the party, but the night is still young, and I'm happy I'm to be here now. Bitcoin has a long exciting future ahead of it, and I'm looking forward to being a part of it.
Happy trading/mining..
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
BTC has no use value, outside of the context of a medium of exchange. BTC is both the currency and an effective, worldwide, transfer mechanism. Just like gold's intrinsic value is rooted in it's properties that make it an ideal money, BTC's intrinsic value rests in the properties imbued into it by powerful cryptology and rigid code practices. If you love gold and understand it, then you will love bitcoin for nearly the exact same reasons, as they share most of the same properties of a good medium of exchange. There are an amazing number of people (particularly on youtube) who love gold/silver and *hate* bitcoin, which shows a deep rift in their understanding. For selfish reasons, I'm in no great hurry to educate the masses, they will figure it out eventually, and in the meantime I'd like to accumulate a nice little horde for myself with as little competition as possible. |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. Well I'm sure he's trying to make sense of it too. He needs an education just like everyone else. Does he have the wisdom to feed his intellect? He was talking about an Austrian economist stating that gold had intrinsic value by reason of it's use value. Austrians don't normally talk in those terms, because use value doesn't equate to an intrinsic value. Value is always subjective, and an 'intrinsic' value would necessarily have to exist, if it did exist, by reason of a commodities natural characteristics. Gold's use value is not very closely related to it's elemental properties, but it's monetary value is related to it's elemental properties. If gold has an intrisic value, it's directly related to it's quality as an ideal money, not it's industrial or commercial uses. You're quite right! The fact that gold has almost no industrial uses, is one of the properties that it make it a great medium of exchange, you want your unit of account to be in stable and in predictable supply. Silver on the other hand has many industrial uses, it's a key component in PV cells for solar panels for example, so it's a lot less stable than gold in terms of supply/demand. |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. |
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