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On The Official BCP Recommended List all casinos send immediately.
I guess most of them are indeed instantly processing 0.1 BTC. Would be interesting to know up to which amount. I guess this depends on the liquidity but lets say you cash out 10BTC. I really wonder how many bitcoin casinos give you an instant cashout for that. Is BCP recommended list everybody with A+ rating or everybody on the review list even the ones with D rating? Everyone on the recommended list holds an A+ rating and that includes a few companies that offer no affiliate programs and/or not sponsors. Awesome, so I assume you tested them all. Nice job, getting paid for playing ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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On The Official BCP Recommended List all casinos send immediately.
I guess most of them are indeed instantly processing 0.1 BTC. Would be interesting to know up to which amount. I guess this depends on the liquidity but lets say you cash out 10BTC. I really wonder how many bitcoin casinos give you an instant cashout for that. Is BCP recommended list everybody with A+ rating or everybody on the review list even the ones with D rating?
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I see your favourite casino is BitZino then according to this post? ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I guess you must be running the bitcoincasinopro review page. Seems like a good entry for a newbie like me to discover the space:) How about promotions? I do not really see many casinos offering any deposit bonuses. Is this because there is an issue of abusing them? In the end the margins running your own games should be quite high so giving something on top should not be an issue. Do you think provability is really so important and why the iGaming industry did not implement it yet? To be honest I was trying to understand how it works on BitZino and there is no way I am able to prove the result with my knowledge - I get stucked with Marseene Twist ... . To me it seems like a good advertisement point but I fear for an ordinary Joe like me that would be too sophisticated to crack down and actually prove it manually. Is provability important just for casinos that are running software from 3d party providers that are not very well known or casinos that are not really licensed to protect against scammers maybe? I am not so sure that a normal casino player fear when playing a game from NET ENT or Playtech that they are actually tweaking their RNG? In the end most of the big casinos out there in the iGaming industry are either using Microgaming, Playtech or Netent and some others smaller providers. Games run on their servers for multiple operators so they have a huge reputation to loose if they would set up the games manually. I can only speak for BitcoinVideoCasino, but we don't offer deposit bonuses and other promotions because our house edge is too low for it to be a profitable marketing strategy. It's better for the players to pick casinos with published low house edges than play with casinos who have an edge high enough to offer bonuses. Those casinos are also much less likely to publish their rates. We also developed every game from the ground up ourselves, we're provably fair, we publish house edge, our Android app is open source, and we have a publicly available API. Users on BitcoinVideoCasino also have the option to manually change the client seed. Provable fairness is important in the Bitcoin Casino industry because we have no regulatory bodies, there has to be some way to monitor a casino's behavior and players need assurances that they are not being scammed. Is any casino actually doing instant cash outs and up to what amount? Are instant cash outs just a promotional phrase? ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) Let's say I deposit 1 BTC i play and after 1 day I decide to withdraw 1.5 BTC. Are casinos actually processing this instantly? I am really curious how that works considering the risk you might have as casino.
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RNG can be a bitch sometimes I agree but thats what slots are all about. Seeing the operation of the casinos from the inside in the classic online casino space I can tell you that 2-4% margin is correct on the long run for most of slots at bigger casinos that use popular RNG slot producers. The big differences between slots are in volatility though. I know it is hard to believe sometimes but its true.
It's believable I suppose - I simply don't know enough about that piece (other than observation and what others say) to have an informed opinion. But I would like to caveat that with this... in the long run - all it takes is that one lucky person to hit a jackpot for the casino to realize that 2-4% margin. In the meantime, 98% never cashes out. You should note that the slots that are having jackpots are having normally lower payout ratio as they are taking 1-2% for the jackpot pool to be fed with that. At least a nice example of that is a game from NetENT Megafortune.
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What you should be wagering here is bonus and not bonus + deposited amount.
Nope, that's actually correct for most casinos. Maybe you would be surprised but most of the fiat online casinos have 0% wagering set on table games. And its quite normal.
No comment, I only play slots for the most part. Mostly the wagering of the bonus is only possible with slots and its 100%. House edges on the slots are 2-4%. Also you would be surprised that people do manage to clear (complete wagering requirements) for their bonuses even with that in your opinion high house edge - its true many dont but still the % is higher than 10. I guess this has to do with the fact that the odds are truly in casino favour but on the other hands big wins happen as well. So then we are talking about the volatility of slot and payout distribution.
I've managed to clear the wagering requirements at casinos before, but it's a challenge and I'm only successful (now) maybe about 10% of the time. Last year when I'd drop 10BTC in a casino, it was easy... almost impossible if you deposit below a certain threshold. If you really think most casinos' slots only have an house edge of 2-4%, please direct me to them; I'm tired of what's available now. Here's what my game play is like now for the most part: I entertain myself with the slots, so can't speak on other games. But not that I'm complaining about losing .15 bitcoins, I'll make a statement that I'll elaborate on later because it applies not just to you, but to many casinos using similar software. Your slots 'appear' to pay more than the usual. Except out of about 15 wins, only 1 results in a payout higher than the initial bet. Not in particular sustainable from a player's point of view. Without a 'big' or a 'mega' win, the chances of walking away with something in your pocket is slim. Here's just a quick run down of my game play (but I don't have to tell you as you can check the logs): betting the min of 30 chips... first .1 bitcoin wagered - only five wins resulted in payout higher than 30 chips (.63, 1.53 [big win], .7, .43 with a bonus round that netted me .05) second .1 bitcoin wagered got better - 10 wins resulted in payout higher than 30 chips, with 3 big wins of .93, 2.06, and 1.05. It wasn't until the reserves started to get low did the slots decide it's warmed up enough; I got 3 mega wins (one 12.11 at the very last minute to keep me in the game). Even so, it was still just an average of 1 win every 10-15 wins that resulted in payout larger than initial bet. Is this fair? On the surface these types of slots payout more frequently than others, sure. But the reality is they don't because those frequent wins are so small they count for nothing (average credits won I'd say was less than 10). But I do like the games and the fact you can choose not to accept the bonus. I also like how the rollover requirements are there from the beginning so you know what to expect. I've only played here once, so really can't give a detailed review... just thought I'd make mention of my observation, which I'll expand later accusing others ![Tongue](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) So this just doesn't imply to you, but to most of the fancier joints I've played. RNG can be a bitch sometimes I agree but thats what slots are all about. Seeing the operation of the casinos from the inside in the classic online casino space I can tell you that 2-4% margin is correct on the long run for most of slots at bigger casinos that use popular RNG slot producers. The big differences between slots are in volatility though. I know it is hard to believe sometimes but its true.
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A question for Aksplace and b!z since you guys are more into reviewing casino webpages,
I saw somewhere in your reviews from one casino that you try to check the hot wallet of casino to see if they are able to payout the players. What kind of criteria are you using to say, ok this casino has enough BTC in their wallet. Is there a ratio for that compared to the max bet on the roulette for example?
What is the min. amount of BTC in your opinion for a healthy casino to have in the hot wallet? And what numbers raises red flag?
I can also assume that this kind of information could be private in some times and that casinos are not comfortable to disclose this info.
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In a 8 deck shoe of Baccarat the house edge on a banker bet is 1.06%. Therefore, if you bet $1.00 for 10,000 games, the game balance should be around -1.06%*$10000 = -$100.60 Depending on what deposit and bonus offer you receive, the final balance will be different from casino to casino.
So lets suppose a casino offered you a 200% bonus with a 12x rollover. You will have to look in the fine print but for example BITOOMBA Casino says Baccarat hands equal only .25% of the rollover so we will have to multiply the 12x rollover by 4 to satisfy such bonus. If you deposit $100, just by playing Baccarat alone and only wagering $1.00 per spin you would have to play banker 14400 times to meet such rollover. Lets plug the numbers into the calculation and this is what you should end up around -1.06%*$14400 = -$152.64.
Initial Deposit + $200 Bonus - $152.64 = +47.36
If this is the case the player has a real edge and is unsuitable for a casino to offer long term especially with bitcoins which anyone could actually create 100 accounts and take such bonus offers. One thing is certain, Most RNG casino software is designed to take advantage of players and without the really dumb providers exposing themselves (casino web scripts for example and also the same software Bit777 shilled for) it sadly goes undetected.
What you should be wagering here is bonus and not bonus + deposited amount. Maybe you would be surprised but most of the fiat online casinos have 0% wagering set on table games. And its quite normal. Mostly the wagering of the bonus is only possible with slots and its 100%. House edges on the slots are 2-4%. Also you would be surprised that people do manage to clear (complete wagering requirements) for their bonuses even with that in your opinion high house edge - its true many dont but still the % is higher than 10. I guess this has to do with the fact that the odds are truly in casino favour but on the other hands big wins happen as well. So then we are talking about the volatility of slot and payout distribution.
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Provably fair casinos would go bankrupt if they would offer a bonus without some sort of exorbitant rollover requirement. Reason so, they are FAIR which is the keyword here. Companies that offer 200% cash bonuses for casino games clearly run a rigged house and should be avoided. Just take a look at the threads here this week, it's pretty clear who offers honest games and who does not.
I am sorry but I am not sure I understand your logic here quite well. Bonuses and free spins have been one of the biggest standard promotions in classic gambling industry. Why exactly you believe that in provable casinos it is different? Because all the big slot producers (NETENT, IGT, PT, WMS) are rigged?Is that a fact? I don't doubt it, but guess I'll go consult Google. But I do agree with aksplace to an extent; casino's would go broke without a rollover requirement, they admit this - everyone would take the bonus and run. And think about it... if a casino offers an enormous bonus to every player and their games are really truly fair (whatever the hell this means, I don't even know anymore), what would that tell you about their bottom line? If their casino really has a 90+% payout as they claim, they're paying users for providing the entertainment! But even so, very few players actually meet the rollover requirement anyway. Bonuses attract players no doubt, it's all the baggage that comes along with it that's questionable. Regarding the rigged casinos it was a question actually. Regarding bonuses I don't see anything wrong for a casino having 40-50 times wagering requirement. In the end its up to the player if he wants to go that route or not. As mentioned you should be always able to cancel the bonus and keep your money shall you change your mind after depositing. Also I agree that many casinos are trying to be evil by tricking players into wrong decision by giving players too little info and then claiming afterwards that it was written in the small print. But luckily people are not stupid and this kind of techniques are short lived on the long run to keep up the reputable brand. I think a good question is also how many Bitcoin casinos actually know how to provide good service to their customers. - Live support, how about responsible gaming where people actually can look for organisations that are providing help to addition with gambling or maybe having a nice user friendly FAQ.
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Hi guys,
I'm coming from iGaming industry and as you can see I'm quite new at this forum. I would love to hear your opinion about your experience good or bad with the Bitcoin casinos that you had so far. Are you looking at it as a player or an actor? 1. Where do you like to play the most and why? I think I will play the most at verajohn.com, since they have the highest quality of games, nice level system and so on. They claim to be "the first old" online casino that takes bitcoin. 2. Which is your favourite casino game? Mega Fortune. Not really a bitcoin game but since I can now play it for bitcoin, I can win the huge jackpot. 3. Do you think current casinos are missing something that you would love to see in the next casino? Well again, there's only the verajohn casino that has the high quality games that you should be used to from your iGaming background. Thanks for the answers. verajohn.com does look like a very nice solution. It's a blend of high quality content and bitcoin. Apart from accepting bitcoins still they miss almost all bitcoin casino primary advantages as I understand (provability, instant cashouts, privacy respected, no territory restrictions). Nevertheless I am sure they will attract a certain demographics of gamblers in bitcoin space. I am sure that other classic online casinos will follow the lead.
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I do not really see many casinos offering any deposit bonuses Provably fair casinos would go bankrupt if they would offer a bonus without some sort of exorbitant rollover requirement. Reason so, they are FAIR which is the keyword here. Companies that offer 200% cash bonuses for casino games clearly run a rigged house and should be avoided. Just take a look at the threads here this week, it's pretty clear who offers honest games and who does not. I am sorry but I am not sure I understand your logic here quite well. Bonuses and free spins have been one of the biggest standard promotions in classic gambling industry. Why exactly you believe that in provable casinos it is different? Because all the big slot producers (NETENT, IGT, PT, WMS) are rigged?
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777coin has unfortunately been down for almost a day now. I would recommend checking in on them in a day or so, as their games are pretty unique. Bit777's lack of slots is due to an unresolved problem with their video slot software. I'd refer you to them for more details about the issue.
bitcoincasino24.com is certainly a good site at least in that I can confirm they pay out. I've personally won non-trivial amounts that were paid. They are running a popular turnkey solution, see: casino.betcoin.tm. A few others have popped up using that same software, but I don't recall their names. Their software is not provably fair, but probably fair.
In regards to BC-Casino, they either have developer support or at least an in house developer. I discovered a very specific exploit in some of their games that was fixed rather quickly. In any case, they're not utilizing that developer to create new games, which is unfortunate.
Bitoomba certainly has some unique games. In the past I've received payouts from them, and I've also not received a large payout of ~6 BTC from them. They're flaky at best, and their software is pretty buggy. They do seem to be putting out new content periodically.
About provable fairness, I think it's important to a certain group of people. A lot of people in the bitcoin community are IT professionals or otherwise possess a keen mathematical sense. We understand how easy it would be for a site not bound by the regulations of a brick and mortar casino to rig their games, so the logic behind a provable fairness system eases allows us to ease that fear. Additionally, a certain joy can be had seeing such a system in place and working. I would, however, argue the majority of your target audience, gamblers in general, do not possess the ability or interest to understand such a system, and fun game play is more important. I think that it should be sufficient to have your software audited by an ISO 9001 compliant lab in lieu of provable fairness, and to be transparent about how your software arrives at any given outcome given your RNG's input. Basically, the bitcoin gambling community invented a solution to a problem that the corporate world was unwilling to provide. If it was not so prohibitively expensive to have software audited, there likely would not have been a need to invent the provably fair system.
As far as bonuses and such go, I think they're only good if your target audience will be interested in them. Bitzino has been around for a relatively long time, and was geared towards bitcoin enthusiasts. I'd argue that this group's reaction to the typical online casino bonus would range from a simple lack of interest to outright offense. The rollover requirements generally make them a bad deal for the player, and bitcoin enthusiasts probably have the math and logic skills to understand that. These days, your interest should be focused on gamblers in general, and they're a much more impulsive bunch.
I would personally rather see offerings from IGT or WMS than Microgaming. That being said, a Microgaming bitcoin casino would still be welcome. I suppose it comes down to whether or not you want to be moderately successful, or best in class. Either is fine, but if you give me the ability to play DaVinci Diamonds with bitcoin, I'll be your first customer.
I like how you make two categories "Provably fair" and "probably fair". Funny this stuff didn't even exist before bitcoin. You are right when you say that provability is not important for ordinary gamblers. Though it might be that players will educate themselves slowly and maybe request this feature. It's hard to say as what is going to happen. The bonuses has been in the gaming industry for long time and yes the wagering requirements are good for casino since the more you wager the higher is a chance that the game will payout the percent that it was designed for. On the other hand players are normally able to cancel / forfeit bonuses which in the end leads to loosing all the previous winnings. What I think it is a bit difficult with bitcoin casinos is how to make sure that one person gets only one bonus as you do not need to provide any documents and IPs can be easily changed this days with all the VPN providers. Do you think the bitcoin casinos as we know them today will disappear once Microgaming, Net Ent, IGT and WMS enter the market?
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I will break it down like this - I bet sports (NCAA FB much pretty thats it) and play Blackjack and everyonce in a while Dice (modified Roulette) here.
For Provably Fair BJ
1. Casinobitco.in 2. BitcoinVideoCasino
For NonProvably Fair BJ - Real feel 1. Bit777 - as they are only ones I trust with an RNG
Dice
1. Just-Dice 2. Coinroll.it
Sportsbooks
1 Casinobitco.in 2. Bitbook 3. Nitrogen - I use the three and honestly all offer great service and an assest to the BTC community, imo
As far as the other stuff out right now I will pass.
Why because I live in a state where Video Poker Parlors are allowed (and are within 500 yards of my house) and the IGT system is used and has state audited payouts. My wife and I both play, she moreso than me as its a way to decompress, but if/when IGT games are on a Bitcoin site imo its game over. Because games like Texas Tea, Lion Fish, and such are the standard, and such more fun to play.
Also live within 45 minutes of table games also so if I want to play BJ I can go there, but to sit down on the computer and throw $20 on some BJ on a Friday night without driving 45 minutes is nice, and why I play in BTC
Thanks for breaking it down. I do see your point that as soon as bigger slot providers start to support bitcoins there will be alot more great content available. As it is today there is nobody from the big slot producers allowing you to play directly with Bitcoins as far as I know. I guess its also a question if you provability wins over nice looking content (3d slot) for example? How much do you spend for gambling per month would you say on average?
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What Cwil Said.... Also from that perspective provably fair gaming truly is the only way to go although we do have several RNG casinos thank rank near the top. Provably fair gaming is the new gold standard for online gaming. I do want to mention a more reliable provably fair 2 verification system is coming to stores shortly. While doing weekly runs I personally hit this just an hour ago at Bitzino Casino ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitcoincasinopro.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2Fbitzino-4-deuces-poker1.jpg&t=665&c=uiMk6QG9hdyHmA) I see your favourite casino is BitZino then according to this post? ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I guess you must be running the bitcoincasinopro review page. Seems like a good entry for a newbie like me to discover the space:) How about promotions? I do not really see many casinos offering any deposit bonuses. Is this because there is an issue of abusing them? In the end the margins running your own games should be quite high so giving something on top should not be an issue. Do you think provability is really so important and why the iGaming industry did not implement it yet? To be honest I was trying to understand how it works on BitZino and there is no way I am able to prove the result with my knowledge - I get stucked with Marseene Twist ... . To me it seems like a good advertisement point but I fear for an ordinary Joe like me that would be too sophisticated to crack down and actually prove it manually. Is provability important just for casinos that are running software from 3d party providers that are not very well known or casinos that are not really licensed to protect against scammers maybe? I am not so sure that a normal casino player fear when playing a game from NET ENT or Playtech that they are actually tweaking their RNG? In the end most of the big casinos out there in the iGaming industry are either using Microgaming, Playtech or Netent and some others smaller providers. Games run on their servers for multiple operators so they have a huge reputation to loose if they would set up the games manually.
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Hi Nick,
I enjoy 777coin for their unique games and provably fair system. Unfortunately their games, other than their most recently released slot due to it's bonus system, do not have much replayability. Bit777 lacks a provably fair system, but they do have the best multihand blackjack game in my opinion.
I prefer slots for entertainment, and blackjack for gambling.
The current casinos all suffer from one of two problems: they're either lacking games, or too similar to each other. The casinos with unique games like 777coin, bitcoinvideocasino, and bitzino do not seem to have very active development, so their games get stale. Other casinos offering a large variety of games are using turnkey gaming solutions, and with only two reputable providers, their games also get stale, though it takes a little longer. Bit777 has managed to be successful with a turnkey solution, though as far as I can tell, they're the only one using that particular provider's solution and they've managed to add new games through acquisitions and integrating other gaming packages from various providers. There is one outlier, BC-Casino, with unique and fun games, but they've unfortunately seemed to have stopped adding new games and have lost relevance. In the end, most people end up at dice sites like just-dice for their simplicity and house edge.
As you're coming from the iGaming industry, I'd suggest looking in to licensing games from a well known provider like IGT. If you can create a site where people can play classic, familiar games like Frog Princess and Cleopatra, along with a good selection of table and card games, I think you'd easily attract the current bitcoin gambling community, as well as mainstream US gamblers looking to play the same games they can play in Vegas. Going down this route has the potential to not only be very profitable, but also attract an entirely new segment of gamblers to bitcoin.
Hi Cwil! Thanks for your reply. I tried to try the 777coin.com but they seem to have some technical issues as the page didn't load. Bit777 does seem to be interesting option but they truly lack a bit at the good slot content. Also I did't see the provably fair system as for example on bitzino. I have checked BC-Casino. To be fair I am 99% sure that they are running illegal copy of Playtech slots. As far as I remember there used to be a big affair about that. There is also an illegal copy of Novomatic slots in the wild as fair as I was informed. I believe on the last gaming exhibition one company even came to present their "slot machines" with such illegal copies and they were removed from the exhibition the first day and the whole booth was shut down. But yeah, getting some good content providers on the Bitcoin wagon seems to be crucial as the current solutions are just ok. How about bitcoincasino24.com. They seem to have legit games, though I have not seen the provability checkmark. I have seen that bitooomba casino is also very aggressive with offering a deposit bonus and up to 30% affiliate rates. I wonder how this works and how many people actually abuse this as there is no ID checks.
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Hi guys,
I'm coming from iGaming industry and as you can see I'm quite new at this forum. I would love to hear your opinion about your experience good or bad with the Bitcoin casinos that you had so far.
1. Where do you like to play the most and why? 2. Which is your favourite casino game? 3. Do you think current casinos are missing something that you would love to see in the next casino?
Thanks for your answers.
Cheers!
Nick
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