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1  Economy / Economics / Re: How we could "back" bitcoins with something of value on: June 20, 2011, 10:32:25 PM
@Richard Andreassen

The problem with modifying supply based on an exchange rate is:
Which exchange rate to use? For example, when Bitcoin was created, there were no exchanges around.
It would introduce a lot of uncertainty in the design.

People could just use whatever exchange rate they wanted by putting a url to a service that provided an exchange rate into their client. Then the network would have to agree by majority rule or something.

I think there are bigger challenges to my suggestion than this.
2  Economy / Economics / Re: The general flaw of fiat money and how its associated with Bitcoins on: June 20, 2011, 10:22:54 PM
Many wars in in medieval times started for the reason of acquiring more Gold for the Market.

Yeah, before Adam Smith wrote the Wealth of Nations and showed everyone what a dumb idea mercantilism was.
3  Economy / Economics / Re: How we could "back" bitcoins with something of value on: June 19, 2011, 11:28:51 PM
Backing and pegging are similar in that they both influence the price.

Backing protects the value from falling but it does not prevent the price from rising.  Pegging stabilizes the value in both directions.  Backing also does not require active intervention in the market, as demonstrated with silver dollars.  The backing is connected to the currency when it is created.  Pegging requires active management over the lifetime of the currency.  Whether this is manipulation or "free market" is somewhat beside the point.  What matters is if it's practical and trustworthy.

Under a system of backing the price is usually prevented from rising by people bringing gold or some other asset to the issuer in exchange for new money.

The difference between backing and pegging is only whether the supply of currency is managed actively or passively.


The problem is precisely falling value when there is not an expectation that demand will pick up.

I agree that this is a potential problem. The assumption would have to be that the demand for currency tends to grow over time. This is generally true, but not guaranteed.

A potential solution I have been thinking about is that exchanges would provide special accounts for arbitraging the dips in the currency. The buying and selling on these accounts would be automated and not subject to discretion, so that they would always buy below parity and sell at or above parity. Also the money would have to be unaccessible for a while (say 30 days at a time) to prevent people from panicking and closing their account on a drop in demand.

There would of course have to be some special benefits to having such accounts if anyone should be expected to take the risk. This could be priority in the bidding process, so that these accounts would be first in line to buy whenever the price drops below parity, and lower or no transaction fees. Transaction fees on the buying and selling of others could perhaps even be awarded these accounts as a payment for their risk taking if a larger incentive is needed.

Generally speaking such an account would generate profits, but you would risk losing the money if the currency still fails.

I must stress that this is still just an idea that I am playing with, and I am not yet certain whether this would be viable or not. 
4  Economy / Economics / Re: How we could "back" bitcoins with something of value on: June 19, 2011, 09:53:31 PM
There is a difference between backing and pegging.

Not Really. The market value of a currency is merely a function of the supply and demand of that currency. The "backing" only really comes into play when the demand for the currency falls, so that the price can be supported. The classical gold standard was basically a currency peg to gold.

Bitcoins do not back themselves because they have no use other than currency.  You cannot use them except to spend them, and you cannot spend them without someone else accepting them.  Silver dollars and copper pennies have non-monetary value because you can melt them down and you have metal which has industrial uses.  Bitcoins do NOT have this type of value.

Agreed.

Pegging a currency means manipulating the market to maintain a certain exchange ratio. 

I don't think pegging a currency is a matter of manipulating the market. It's just a matter of managing the supply. The price is at all times set by the market.

If you are issuing a currency, there must be some supply of it. To say that a fixed supply, or a supply growing at a constant rate is somehow more "free market" than a supply that varies with demand is just silly.

Because it's a money-losing proposition, market participants are not in a position to peg a currency.  Hoping that speculators will effectively peg a currency at a certain ratio is the same as hoping that the market in general will peg a currency.  Not going to happen.

How exactly, is it a money-losing proposition? You buy when the price is low, and sell when the price is high. Sounds to me like a way to make money.

Through mining, you can flood the market with new currency if its value rises above a certain level, but there is no mechanism to contract the quantity of money if its value falls.

Protection against rising value is not really protection (except for borrowers I suppose).  Falling values are really what you need to protect against, to give people confidence that their currency holdings won't be wiped out.

I agree that this is a challenge, but if no new currency can enter the market while the price is suppressed, and you expect demand to pick up in the future, there is an incentive to buy more of the currency when it is low. I have a few ideas that I am working on about how to make this mechanism more reliable.

Also, when there is an effective ceiling on the price of the currency, no one would hoard the currency in order to profit from appreciation above this level. Only people who actually wanted the currency as a medium of exchange would want to buy the currency at its parity price. So there could never be a speculative bubble in the currency. This would make sudden falls in demand less likely.
5  Economy / Economics / Re: How we could "back" bitcoins with something of value on: June 19, 2011, 12:47:06 PM
1. Backing Bitcoin would require a central authority and being decentralized is one of the key characterisitcs of Bitcoin. Without decentralization Bitcoin would loose value, not gain it.

2. If you still think its a good idea, you can go and start goldcoins, silvercoins, ricecoins or dollarcoins. Let the market decide which one it prefers. But I would take a good look at what happened to Liberty Dollars.

I think it would be a great idea to start something like goldcoins, that keeps their value stable against gold. It wouldn't be necessary to have any physical backing or central authority to do this.

Let me suggest a very crude way to do this:

Instead of having a predefined rate of growth in the number of coins, the difficulty of mining coins could depend on the exchange rate between goldcoins and gold. So let's say we set the target exchange rate at 1 gold coin for 1 gold gram. When the price of goldcoins rises above 1 gram mining becomes easier, increasing the supply of goldcoins until the price comes back down to the parity level. When the price of goldcoins are at 1 gram of gold or lower, mining new coins should be virtually impossible so that no new coins are mined until demand picks up.

Whenever the price falls below parity speculators could make a profit by hoarding goldcoins at the reduced price and then selling them again when the price comes back up. This would increase the demand for goldcoins and drive the price back up to the parity level.

This should basically be enough to keep the value of goldcoins stable against gold. I do also have some ideas that I am working on about how to make the mechanisms for keeping the value stable more efficient and less likely to fail. 
6  Economy / Economics / Re: How we could "back" bitcoins with something of value on: June 19, 2011, 04:00:35 AM
I agree that bitcoins need to be backed by something.

To me this means that bitcoins need to be readily convertible into the thing backing them.

Not necessarily. The idea of "backing" a currency is actually a bit of a misconception. All that is needed is to regulate the supply of the currency so that the price is at par with the value of the commodity you are using as the standard of value.

The problem I see is making it decentralized.  With a single choke point a government can shut the whole thing down, which defeats the purpose.  Physical metal is excellent in terms of decentralization because it's impossible to track and impractical to confiscate, but it doesn't travel over the internet very well.

I think this is possible, since we don't need any actual physical metal. All we need is the exchange rate between the metal and bitcoins. I have some ideas about how this exchange rate can be used to adjust the supply of bitcoins in a completely decentralized manner.
7  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: POLL: What's the *real* reason you ever got into Bitcoins? on: June 19, 2011, 03:36:50 AM
Because I'm a Libertarian and figured if the Federal Reserve is allowed to make money illegally why can't I!

Bitcoins aren't illegal  Grin
8  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: If bitcoin succeeds....so what? on: June 19, 2011, 03:18:09 AM
I don't get it... you're doubting bitcoin has value? Isn't that crystal-clear already? Even thieves are after them! Cheesy

Scarcity alone is not enough, but being scarce + being desired by some people is enough to attribute value to any resource.

Yes they have value because they are desired.  Tulip bulbs were valuable because they were desired, and desired because they were valuable.  My problem is that if a thing is ONLY desired because other people want them, then no rational price exists.  Tulip bulbs could be $100 or $1000 or $10,000 and none of these prices is any more rational than any other price.

Actually, there is a rational price, which is the commodity value.  If it has no commodity value then it is zero.

The solution to this is to peg the value of the coins to something with stable value like gold. I think this should be possible without introducing any form of centralized authority.
Any mechanism to do that is susceptable to manipulation.  US $ were pegged to gold, until someone decided to get greedy (Morgan, Loeb, etc.) when they made the Fed.

First of all; I do not believe in the conspiracy theory about the Fed that it was somehow created to enrich bankers or some nonsense like that. The original purpose was merely to be an insurance policy against bank runs. A lender of last resort.

I do however think that "power corrupts" and that creating such an entity inevitably leads to the abuse of the power it has been given. This is what happened to the Fed (and I do think it should be abolished).

The beauty of BitCoin is that no central authority can manipulate it. 

That is true, but I believe it is possible to make it stable in value without any form of central authority. If this is the case then it would not be possible to manipulate the mechanism.

When enough people use it for transactions, it will stabilize.  Right now it is in pure speculation mode.

It might become stable eventually within some broad range, like +/- 10-20%, but I don't think that is good enough to have a viable currency. Long term planning based on the value of bitcoins would be impossible.
9  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: If bitcoin succeeds....so what? on: June 19, 2011, 02:45:46 AM
I don't get it... you're doubting bitcoin has value? Isn't that crystal-clear already? Even thieves are after them! Cheesy

Scarcity alone is not enough, but being scarce + being desired by some people is enough to attribute value to any resource.

Yes they have value because they are desired.  Tulip bulbs were valuable because they were desired, and desired because they were valuable.  My problem is that if a thing is ONLY desired because other people want them, then no rational price exists.  Tulip bulbs could be $100 or $1000 or $10,000 and none of these prices is any more rational than any other price.

Actually, there is a rational price, which is the commodity value.  If it has no commodity value then it is zero.

The solution to this is to peg the value of the coins to something with stable value like gold. I think this should be possible without introducing any form of centralized authority.
10  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: If bitcoin succeeds....so what? on: June 18, 2011, 06:18:25 PM
I am tempering my enthusiasm for bitcoin because I don't know how it will deal with recessions.  There is a role for the government in those economic times and bitcoin doesn't provide for that.  We shall see, though.

That is a good thing. Governments only makes recessions worse!

11  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: The 1 thing we NEED to do in order to make Bitcoin more popular on: June 18, 2011, 04:38:43 PM
The thing that really needs to be done in order to make Bitcoin viable as a currency is to make it stable in value. Currently Bitcoin is almost exclusively used for speculation because of the violent price swings.
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