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If satoshi decides to sell his coins OTC to someone giving him his private keys will those coins have a premium ?
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Lets assume that by mistake satoshi moves his coins. What would happen to bitcoin?
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Which statistical tests are you going to use? What degree of bias are you trying to exclude? What p value are you happy with? How many rolls does that require?
I will runt it 500 times and see if theres a bias.I accept a bias of 30% for one side since it still has good entropy if i go for 24 word seed. Even though i know it cant have that bias since they are casino dice this method is from iancoleman website. Do you think its not good enough since he is the creator of the bip39? why do you think the coin flip method is better? |
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Is this really necessary ? I'll refer you to an answer I gave in another thread on this topic: Maybe. Maybe not. The numbers given so far in this thread discuss the Shannon entropy, but have you calculated the min-entropy you would achieve from doing this? What randomness extractor algorithm are you planning to use to turn those dice rolls in to usable entropy? How are you converting those dice rolls to binary without introducing modulo bias? It's not as simple as just "roll the dice more" - it's a very complex topic which most people do not fully understand (and I do not profess to either), which is why whenever the topic of manually generating entropy comes up, I always suggest von Neumann's coin flips to simply, quickly, and most importantly verifiably generate 128 or 256 bits of provably unbiased entropy.
If the answer to generating true random numbers was as simple as "Take any old non-random and biased process and just repeat it a bunch of times", there would not be an entire field of research dedicated to it. We have methods were are provable and verifiable. Why risk everything by coming up with your own ad hoc scheme? I would use casino grade dices and test it for its bias before using it. To convert it to binary without bias i would use this model : number1 : 1 number2: 0 number3: 00 number4: 01 number5: 10 number6: 11. I would then use https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ on an old offline pc to get to 24 words and then burn the pc on my furnace. Do you think this is a a valid method? |
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Another simple way is to count bits according to this array: 1: 00
2: 01
3: 10
4: 11
5: 0
6: 1 I like this. Do you like the ideia of adding a coin flip when i am at 10 numbers in order to get the number 11 or this is bad for entropy? |
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The BIP 39 list of words are seemingly random words, in alphabetical order, numbered 0 to 2047. Each word represents an 11 bit number (eleven 0’s and 1’s).
how do you convert the 1 to 6 in a dice to 0 and 1 to get a seed word?
i assume you have to do 1 to 3 is a 0 and 3 to 6 is a 1. This makes like a coinflip.
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As I have showed in here, a dice that produces near 1 bit of entropy is understandably insecure from the human eye. You can check out how frequent '1's I have got with 75% frequency, it makes a splash. And that's 1.29, with 1 bit it's even more clear that you shouldn't use that dice. a perfect dice doesnt show 1 bit. what i mean is : a word in the bitcoin seed is something like this : 00011111101 By using a dice i assume people have to say: if dice comes 1 to 3 i will choose number 0 if dice come to 4 to 6 choose number 1 So this is always a 50% 50% making that dice like a coinflip. Am i thinking right? |
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is the entropy for a die really over 1 bit? if the seed its all zeros and one even if the die has 6 faces its always 50% 50% because we will have to do something like from 1 to 3 choose ZERO from 4 to 6 choose ONE.
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Depends how certain you want to be that your coin is fair. You can never be 100% sure your coin is fair, but you can asymptotically approach 100% with increasing confidence of ruling out ever smaller biases. For example, to exclude a 55/45 bias with 99% confidence, you would need to flip the coin 664 times. However, to exclude a 51/49 bias with 99% confidence, you would need to flip the coin 16,589 times.
A more practical approach would be to simply use the von Neumann approach I alluded to above. Take any coin and flip it in twice. If the first flip is heads and the second flip is tails, write down 0. If the first flip is tails and the second flip is heads, write down 1. If the two flips are both heads or both tails, don't write down anything. Repeat until you have 128 zeros or ones written down. This method completely eliminates any bias in the coin and produces a uniformly distributed output. It will require a lot less flips than any method to test whether or not your coin is actually fair.
Is this really necessary ? A coin that flips 0.75 heads and 0.25 tails still has 0.81 entropy. just flip it 156 times to be sure you have a good seed phrase. And if you are paranoid go for 200 flips and you are good to go. You only get cracked if the coin is really a bad coin where it goes tails only less than 15% of the time. Do you agree? |
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after reading more about the subject i come to the conclusion that dice rolling is better even if i dont use fair dice. i used this calculator https://planetcalc.com/2476/ and i found that a die that comes 50% number 1 and the rest of numbers just 10% if i roll it 100 times i still get 216 bits of entrupy. Am i thinking correct? |
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i couldnt read all the answers and from what i read i cant still say if rolling dices is safe. Seedsigner has that feature do you think someone who uses that for a 24 word seed with 5 dices and 1 coin like this protocol says : https://bitbox.swiss/blog/roll-the-dice-generate-your-own-seed/ gets a seed impossible to crack? |
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"Didn't you use a passphrase when you were creating the wallet on Wasabi?" This was the problem. Now it worked. thanks man  |
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I tried to do the other way around and it didnt worked. i created a wallet on wasabi and copy pasted the 12 words private key on electrum and selected bip 39 and the wallet was recovered by electrum but the master public key from eletrum is not the same as the extended acount zpub from wasabi.
I want to add that both wallets are empty are just a test
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What info do i need to backup in order for the seed phrase from electrum can be used by any other wallet? i thought i could recover any bitcoin with a seed phrase but its not true from what i understand i also need to know what wallet was used right? and maybe some other info.
I also tried to do the other way around and it didnt worked. i created a wallet on wasabi and copy pasted the 12 words private key on electrum and selected bip 39 and the wallet was recovered by electrum althout the master public key is diferent from eletrum and from wasabi
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Hi
I just created a wallet on electrum then i copy paste the seed on wasabi wallet in order to recover it but it gives me acess to another wallet not the electrum wallet. I have 0 bitcions on this test but i assume is a diferent wallet because the master public key is diferent.
I want to add that electrum calls it " Master public Key" and wasabi wallet "Extended account zpub" i am assuming both are the same because it starts like this : zpub...
Can someone help me ?
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Since electrum doesnt give me the option to change the derivation path should i assume its a native segwit too but with a derivation path of m/1'?
Thanks for your patience and help
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What i am trying to achieve and test is a multisig wallet with 1 hardware wallet and 2 wallet generated by electrum.
Then what i want to try to figure it out is what do i need to copy and have with me in case i lose my 2 hardware wallets. Can i only have the seed phrase of two wallets and the extended public key of the other wallet or even have the 3 extended public key or do i also need the derivation path of the 3 wallets ?
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key 2 was generated with electrum when i was creating the multisig, the key 3 i used trezor.
is keystore 2: m/1' a complete derivation path or is it missing some info ? i am asking because the cosigner 1 has a lot more numbers
"Your two keystores came from individual extended public keys. If you are backing up the associated extended private keys which pair with these extended public keys, then you don't need to know the derivation path to obtain those keys. If you are backing up the seed phrase which derives those keys, then you definitely need to know the derivation path."
What are extended private keys? is it the 24 words?
What are extended public keys? Is it what electrum call master key when i am trying to restore the multisig wallet?
what is seed phrase which derives those keys?
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I edited post above. i dont know what happened.
Now i can see the derivation path of 2 keys but not the other. its a 3-2 multi sig and i used 1 hardware wallet , 1 private key and 1 master public key ( i say MPK because when i click on info it says MPK but i think this is the xpub also) to recover this wallet
cosigner 1 : m/48'/0'/0'/2'
keystore 2: m/1'
keystore 3 : unknown
since i know the derivation path of one of the cosigner am i safe to save it only this one ? will i be able to know the other two cosigner derivation path by only save it 1 right derivation path for long term ?
i used electrum wallet and never changed any derivation path i just clicked next when i was creating the multisig
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