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1  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin: Eine erste Einordnung (German article on Bitcoin as a financial instrum on: July 10, 2012, 09:19:37 AM
Agreed, the "Bitcoins" could be changed to "Bitcoin". We will keep that in mind for the next revision.

Thank you!
2  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Bitcoin im Deutschen Steuerrecht - Währung oder Rohstoff? on: June 28, 2012, 04:21:17 PM
Firmen wie bitcoin.de, bitcoin-24.com und noch ein paar andere bewegen sich ganz klar innerhalb genehmigungspflichtiger Grenzen.
Meinen face2face-Handel lasse ich per Anwalt abklären.


Was hat eigentlich der Anwalt dazu gesagt?
3  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Bitcoin: Eine erste (rechtliche) Einordnung (Bitcoin als Finanzinstrument) on: June 28, 2012, 04:18:30 PM
So eine Aufsicht erhöht aber auch die Kosten für die Börsen, und indirekt für die Kunden. Noch schlimmer, eine Aufsichtsplicht schafft hohe Einstiegsbarrieren und erstickt Innovation im Keim.

Dazu möchte ich anmerken, dass es auch hier in DE etliche registrierte Bitcoin-Unternehmen gibt. Da etliche davon auch weiterhin operieren, scheint sich da die BaFin wohl noch nicht eingeschaltet zu haben (weil sie es noch nicht bemerkt haben / es noch nicht für nötig gehalten haben einzuschreiten / weil sich noch niemand beschwert hat). Was natürlich keinen Freifahrtschein und ggf. auch keinen Dauerzustand darstellt.

Positiv an der Einordnung sollten aber auf jeden Fall die (mehrwert)steuerlichen Folgen sein Wink
4  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Bitcoin: Eine erste (rechtliche) Einordnung (Bitcoin als Finanzinstrument) on: June 28, 2012, 04:13:14 PM
Die Bafin hat Bitcoin schon lange als Finanzinstrument klassifiziert.

Jein. Die Entscheidung ist in Q4/2011 gefallen. Jedoch braucht es seine Zeit, einen Artikel zu schreiben und den veröffentlicht zu bekommen Wink

Und hier im Forum bekannt geworden scheint diese Einordnung erst im Mai diesen Jahres.

Es gab aber zugegeben vorher schon Bestrebungen sowohl seitens der BaFin als auch des FinMin Bitcoin aufsichtspflichtig zu machen - z.B. über die Einschätzung von Herrn Kampeter wurde ja schon hier im Forum berichtet.
5  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Bitcoin: Eine erste (rechtliche) Einordnung (Bitcoin als Finanzinstrument) on: June 28, 2012, 04:09:57 PM
eine noch detailliertere Einordnung zwischen E-geld, Geld und Rechnungseinheit findet man unter

http://www.ismll.uni-hildesheim.de/pub/pdfs/sorge-krohn-grimberghe-bitcoin.pdf

Das ist genau das Paper um das es geht Smiley
6  Local / Deutsch (German) / Bitcoin: Eine erste (rechtliche) Einordnung (Bitcoin als Finanzinstrument) on: June 27, 2012, 01:23:08 PM
Hallo deutschsprachiger Teil des Forums,

es gibt einen weiteren Artikel zum Thema Bitcoin, der mittlerweile zwischenzeitlich erschienen ist:
Bitcoin: Eine erste Einordnung von Christoph Sorge und Artus Krohn-Grimberghe, erschienen in Datenschutz und Datensicherheit 7/2012.

Es geht neben einer kurzen Beleuchtung des Protokolls (für Laien/Juristen) und des Bitcoin-Ökosystems um die rechtliche Einordnung in Deutschland.

Der Diskussionsthread samt Link zum PDF ist hier zu finden:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90233.0

Hier bitte keine weiteren Posting dazu, damit es nicht zu unübersichtlich wird Wink

Danke
txcoin

PS: Die Autoren freuen sich über Feedback
7  Local / Deutsch (German) / Re: Bitcoin im Deutschen Steuerrecht - Währung oder Rohstoff? on: June 27, 2012, 01:15:44 PM
Moin 2weiX,

bezüglich der Einordnung als Finanzinstrument und der daraus resultierenden Konsequenzen stimme ich Dir voll und ganz zu. Es gibt übrigens auch einen wissenschaftlichen Artikel von Anfang des Jahres zu dieser Einordnung, der mittlerweile erschienen ist:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90233.0


Cheers
txcoin
8  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Bitcoin: Eine erste Einordnung (German article on Bitcoin as a financial instrum on: June 27, 2012, 12:12:49 PM
Hi Forum,

a German language article on bitcoin appeared at this month's Datenschutz und Datensicherheit. The electronic full text is available here:

http://www.ismll.uni-hildesheim.de/personen/krohn-grimberghe.html

Among others, the article contains a discussion of the classification of Bitcoin as a unit of account (Rechnungseinheit) and consequently as a financial instrument (Finanzinstrument) in Germany.

Comments and feedback highly appreciated.


With best regards
txcoin
9  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 19, 2012, 05:37:17 PM
Every transaction is traced back to bits that represent newly generated coins.  They reside in the blockchain as well.

Again, no.  Even the block reward is just another special transaction.  There are no bits that represent a bitcoin, or fifty.

And the "value" entries in a transaction? E.g., the "50.04750000" in tx "fd207092f921894229388b6b7a0bd5b1f3e30a50629ad2001f09a0e5657faaa4" inside block 171903 as found here:

http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000002901eeaa9c60f32ba02de5089cb44db71bacccbb850ec0c4bfd

Don't those numbers somehow represent the amount of Bitcoins being transferred? Although they do not address any individual/unique Bitcoin, I do not see that this would cause a problem as with other fungible things I shouldn't / wouldn't care either?!


Cheers
txcoin
10  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin Conference 2012- London | ANNOUNCEMENT sponsorship on: March 11, 2012, 07:38:59 PM
if a tier 1 sponsor place is left, I'd take that Smiley
11  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: March 09, 2012, 09:17:06 PM
But I am still missing:

* Original August 11, 2011 Municipal Court Decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Ordonnance_de_refere_du_11_aout_2011.pdf

* And the more lengthy August 26 Appeals Court decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Arret_appel_26_aout_2011.pdf

* the October 18 decision which led to the halt of the SEPA activity

Does anyone have some of the above docs?

May I direct the attention back to those PDFs?  Grin 
12  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: March 08, 2012, 04:52:50 PM
Rough summary of the August 11 decision (found a crippled version in a pastebin but better than nothing - PDF still appreciated):

MACARAJA SAS (MSAS) operates the bank account for MtGox. Bank Credit Industriel et Commercial (CIC) intended to close MSAS' account and finally did so on July 15. MSAS was unable to find any new bank account with another bank after that.

MSAS asked Bank of France for another bank to go to and they referred them back to CIC.

CIC refused, stating that the account was closed because of doubts about a misuse of the account for operations that it believes are regulated. MSAS states it is regular trade business.

Court says CIC has to open an account for MSAS. Legality of MSAS doings should/could be investigated at a later point in time.


The August 26 decision as found in the pastebin is very hard to read due to low OCR quality. I'd summarize it as follows:

The bank wants to get rid of the account again. They roughly describe MSAS/MtGox business model and what Bitcoin is. They proceed with complaining that MSAS is acting like a payment service or a bank. (It seems that all that arguing was not fruitful and MSAS should be given back their bank account.)


The August 31 decision does not add anything to that:

CIC canceled MSAS account on Aug 23 and shut it down on Aug 27.

Court subsumes that the cancellation / shutting down of the account does not stem from any new reasons not already known and discussed.

Consequently, the court rules that the account is to reopen and has to be continued, albeit only for "basic services".

Bitcoin as is not touched as a subject.


EDIT: The "original" PDFs (see posting directly above), and especially that of the October 18 decision are still highly appreciated. Smiley

EDIT2: Added the August 31 decision.
13  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: March 08, 2012, 04:30:04 PM
But I am still missing:

* Original August 11, 2011 Municipal Court Decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Ordonnance_de_refere_du_11_aout_2011.pdf

* And the more lengthy August 26 Appeals Court decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Arret_appel_26_aout_2011.pdf

* the October 18 decision which led to the halt of the SEPA activity

Does anyone have some of the above docs?

Well, school French is a bit rusty, but I accept to post a summary for each of those decisions I get emailed - sounds like a very fair trade.

txcoin
14  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: March 08, 2012, 04:15:05 PM
Impressive, that was fast - now I already have:

*  August 31 "Ordonnance de Référé"


But I am still missing:

* Original August 11, 2011 Municipal Court Decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Ordonnance_de_refere_du_11_aout_2011.pdf

* And the more lengthy August 26 Appeals Court decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Arret_appel_26_aout_2011.pdf

* the October 18 decision which led to the halt of the SEPA activity

Does anyone have some of the above docs?


Cheers
txcoin

EDIT: It is August 31 not 30 Wink
15  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: March 08, 2012, 02:52:38 PM
Would someone send me the PDFs of the court decisions and appeals? The original links seem to be broken. I'd like to see how the French weaseled around defining / touching Bitcoin itself Smiley

@gmail.com please

Thank you very much
txcoin
16  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: TradeHill is incompetent: Yet unpublished Data Leakage on 14 August 2011 on: March 08, 2012, 10:34:37 AM

I fear that my EUR and USD funds at Tradehill are gone forever, and I hope that I will be proven wrong.


I am quite confident that TH will sort this out correctly. After all those issues with Linode and shutting down operations it may take a while, but for the EUR business I know that their records are up to date and that they always had the funds in the right place. And I am sure that the same is true for the USD and other markets.
17  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin? on: November 14, 2011, 10:41:43 AM
@tetra4c

Well, I know a Central Bank that made a decision on classifying Bitcoin two months ago. And I share the impression that other countries will slowly follow that. After being unhappy about that decision in the beginning I am now seeing it as "positive" for the Bitcoin community in the medium to long run.

From the grounds in the statement I conclude that the intention is protecting the persons investing money in Bitcoin from too naive exchange or wallet operators (which I agree is good for the evolution of Bitcoin in the long run). But along with that classification come a lot of requirements on possible exchange / wallet operators. (I am only talking about requirements that come on top of the PSD requirements you would already have from the money transfer business.) With a reasonable lawyer or reasonable skills it is at least possible to circumvent the banking requirement (and thus it is no "game over" decision) but it is nonetheless a hefty pile of additional requirements...

That decision should become public any day now.


Cheers
txcoin
18  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Transaction not making it into blockchain on: August 24, 2011, 02:41:21 PM
It usually takes more than 24 hours for such transactions to be relayed and taken by someone who accept those, on condition your client is constantly connected and not behind a firewall.

Where to start if one wanted to learn more about how long transactions will take on average before they make it into the blockchain?

Regards
txcoin
19  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: TradeHill - Now accepting EUR deposits - EUR market is live! on: August 12, 2011, 06:38:12 PM
@Ente
You would have to trade your EURs to BTC and from there you can go to the USD (or any other) market.
20  Local / Trading und Spekulation / Re: mt.gox immer noch keine euro einzahlung -> ab zu tradehill, jetzt mit SEPA on: August 12, 2011, 06:36:41 PM
BTW - es handelt sich um Devisen nicht um Sorten (Sorten sind nur ausländisches Bargeld)

Ahh,  da ist der Unterschied zwischen den Begriffen.

Thx
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