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1  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Your options to having privacy in Bitcoin - and their tradeoffs on: August 25, 2023, 10:00:12 AM
Due to recent events with mixer being confiscated by authorities, or mixer doing an exit scam, or with a seemingly legitimate pro-privacy company going in the opposite direction, I think a clarification of where we are at the moment in protecting the users' privacy is necessary.

There are three ways to secure privacy of your bitcoins, each of which comes with its own advantages and disadvantages. Pick according to what fits you best.
It absolutely does. Any sane user of a privacy service does not want the fee they pay being handed to blockchain analysis to spy on their inputs and potentially censor those inputs based on their findings. This is antithetical to the entire concept of privacy.

Hi, I just post this thread 'Can Submarine Swaps in Lightning Wallet increase Bitcoin Privacy?'

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5464525.0

What do you think, could this be the 4th option to improve Bitcoin anonymity ?
2  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Can Submarine Swaps in Lightning Wallet increase Bitcoin Privacy ? on: August 25, 2023, 09:24:55 AM
Submarine swaps don't provide any additional privacy than what's already available in the Lightning Network and Bitcoin blockchain. So you can increase the privacy of your Lightning network by routing through multiple channels such as onion routing.
Right, but the Swap process enables on-chain BTC to become off-chain BTC, wouldn't this action get rid of traces ? Furthermore, I swap the off-chain coins back to on-chain coins again before spending it. Sounds that the BTC got mixed enough

Regarding the 'routing' you mentioned, I use Muun wallet, how do I route through multiple channels like onion routing ?



I do not know much about submarine swap, but lightning network will help in having privacy as you open and close a channel. I do not know about Muun wallet, but you can use Electrum to open and close a channel.
Right, so in order to have better privacy in Lightning Network, I would need to close the channel each time I finish a transaction ?  



Edit:
@xett036
Use Electrum which is not a centralized means of using lightning payment.
Yeah, I have Electrum for normal BTC transaction, but in terms of Lightning, Electrum seems more complicated to set up. I'm not too sure but do you need to send in BTC already in Lightning network, which doesn't increase the privacy Lightning already has. It's the Submarine Swaps that potentially make coins harder to track

Mod edit: Consecutive posts mergesd
3  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Can Submarine Swaps in Lightning Wallet increase Bitcoin Privacy ? on: August 25, 2023, 09:14:51 AM
Know that if you use a lightning network to open a channel and later close the channel, the coin has been mixed already.
A few points I haven't understood:

Do you mean that the process of Submarine Swaps does increase bitcoin privacy, similar to those 3 methods mentioned in the other thread ?

When I send BTC from exchange to Muun wallet, Muun wallet will open a channel. But then does this channel close itself automatedly after the transaction is done ? 

Additionally, there're also 2 ways to send BTC from exchange to Muun wallet, are there any differences ?

1. Send BTC directly to Muun wallet

2. Send BTC via exchange's Lightning network (Many exchanges now support it) to Muun wallet
4  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Can Submarine Swaps in Lightning Wallet increase Bitcoin Privacy ? on: August 25, 2023, 08:21:41 AM
Hi,

In this thread below, OP explains the details of 3 methods to increase bitcoin privacy

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5464062.0

I've been using Lightning Wallet for a while, can their Submarine Swaps function increase bitcoin privacy as well ?

If they do, I can think of 2 ways, which would be the better one ?

1. BTC in exchange → Muun wallet (Swap from BTC to Lightning; Then Swap the Lightning coins back to BTC ) → BTC in Normal wallet

2. BTC in exchange → Muun wallet (Swap from BTC to Lightning) → Muun wallet 2 (Swap Lightning to BTC) → BTC in Normal wallet

5  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 07:44:07 PM
OK, thanks!
6  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 06:52:23 PM
After selecting, click Send tab.
Use ctrl to select more than 1.

Do you mean after I click 'Spend' on one output point, I just go to the send tab, and make a transaction as usual. Then the coin will only come out of that particular 'control coin balance'
7  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 06:35:25 PM

To be more precise:
You can specify which UTXO (coin) you want to be used for your transaction.
Note that any address can contain numerous UTXOs (coins)

Sure, how to use coin control to make a payment?

I right-clicked on one of the output points, and select Spend, saw that line turns green

8  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 06:22:25 PM
When you use "pay to many", you pay bitcoin to all recipients in a single transaction and there is no other transaction at all.

Right, so I just need to pay the fee once. And if it's confirmed, all the recipient would receive their bitcoins. This way can reduce cost as well

Click on "View" at top of the window and select "Show Coins".

Yeah, I see a couple of output points, and each has their address and amount. Do they mean that the total fund in my wallet are stored into these addresses ? And I can choose a particular address to make a specific payment
9  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 06:09:45 PM
Additionally, how do you calculate what fees to set, do you refer to a website ?
I always use Johoe's Bitcoin Mempool Statistics.
To know the current required fee, hover your mouse cursor over right side of the chart.

Look at the screenshot I just took.




The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 1 sat/vbyte is 100 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 2 sat/vbyte is 52 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 3 sat/vbyte is 49 vMB.
...........
...........
...........
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 17 sat/vbyte is 0.91 vMB.

Note that miners prioritize transactions based on the their fee rate and every block has a capacity of 1 vMB.
So, if I set the transaction fee to more than 17 sat/vbyte, my transaction will likely be confirmed in the next block.
Note that it's possible that new transactions with higher fee rates are added to the mempool and my transaction isn't confirmed in the next block. So, I can pay a bit more (18-20 sat/vbyte) to increase the chance of getting confirmation in the next block.

There are other websites like mempool.space that can be used to estimate the required transaction fee rate.

I am making another transaction now. I use your method, refer to Johoe's Bitcoin Mempool, and see 14+ is 1.122 vMB, so I set my fee 14.2 sat/vB.

This should mean that my transaction will be in the 2nd block, right ? But I right click the transaction, and view on block explorer, it says in 144 blocks. I check back 10 minutes later, it has improved says still in 16 blocks though.

Additionally, I go to mempool.space, it gives 3 fees, Low priority, Medium priority and High priority. How do I read them ?
10  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 05:41:12 PM
It's fine, I might just redo transaction 1 and 2 later
For the next time: if possible, using "Pay to many" in Electrum gives you lower total fees. You'll have one transaction with multiple outputs and only one change address.

I think the problem here is the 3 transactions are somehow linked with each other, which creates a chain reaction.
That's how a blockchain works: each transaction uses the output from the previous transaction.

Quote
Do you know why this would happen? so I can avoid this situation in future payments
If you have multiple inputs in your own wallet you can use Coin control to avoid this, but you don't need to. It's normal.

Right

The 'Pay to many' option can keep multiple transactions at the same position, right ? So even one transaction doesn't get confirmed, it wouldn't affect other transactions' progress

Didn't find the 'Coin control' you mentioned, where is it in Electrum ?
11  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 01:48:10 PM
So right now, I will need to get transaction 3 confirmed first,
If you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.
If you are not in hurry, just wait.

As calculated, the total virtual size of your transactions is 427 vbyte.
Given that for a fast confirmation, transaction fee of around 14 sat/vbyte is required, you need to pay 5978 satoshi in total.
You have paid 3024 satoshi for transactions 1 and 3 and need to pay 2954 satoshi for transaction 2.
If you are in hurry, bump the fee rate of transaction 2 to 21 sat/vbyte.

You can pay a bit more (around 25 sat/vbyte) to make sure your transaction will be confirmed soon. The fee rate required for a fast confirmation changes over time.


I'm now trying to increase the fees for transaction 3. The current fee for transaction 3 is 7 sat/b, but even I put in 27 sat/b, it still says:
With doing so, you invalidate transactions 1 and 2.
If you want all three transactions to included in the blockchain and you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.

Note that in my previous post, I had assumed that the order is transaction 1 ---> transaction  2 ---> transaction 3 and that was why I said you should bump fee of transaction 3.
Since the order is transaction 3 ---> transaction 1 ---> transaction 2, you should bump fee of transaction 2.

Again, no need to do anything, if you are not in hurry.

It's fine, I might just redo transaction 1 and 2 later

I think the problem here is the 3 transactions are somehow linked with each other, which creates a chain reaction. This was never my intention though when I sent them yesterday. I just wanted to send 3 transaction to 3 different address, they should be independent and not interfere with each other

Do you know why this would happen? so I can avoid this situation in future payments

Additionally, how do you calculate what fees to set, do you refer to a website ?

12  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 01:31:34 PM


I set the fees to 30 sat/b, and now it changed

At the same time, it shows that transaction 1 and 2 are invalidated
13  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 01:22:20 PM
I made transaction 3 first, then 1 and 2 (not remember the order between 1 and 2)
As mentioned by ranochigo, you have made the transaction 1 before transaction 2.
If you want these transaction to be confirmed fast, you should bump the fee of transaction 2

Note that with bumping the fee of transaction 3, you invalidate transactions 1 and 2 and with bumping the fee of transaction 1, you invalidate transaction 2.

I'm now trying to increase the fees for transaction 3. The current fee for transaction 3 is 7 sat/b, but even I put in 27 sat/b, it still says:

the server returned an error when broadcasting the transaction. Consider trying to connect to a different server, or updating Electrum

insufficient fee, your transaction is trying to replace another one in the mempool but it does not meet the rules to do so. Try to increase the fee.



14  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 01:12:48 PM
I open the details for all 3 transactions, each has inputs and outputs

There's one output in transaction 3 (Unconfirmed) is the same as one input in transaction 1(Unconfirmed Parent)

There's one output in transaction 1 (Unconfirmed Parent) is the same as one input in transaction 2(Unconfirmed Parent)

What are the relationship of these 3 transactions ?
Transaction 3 -> Transaction 1 -> Transaction 2.

For transaction 1 to have a confirmation, transaction 3 has to confirm first. Afterwhich, for transaction 2 to confirm, transaction 1 has to have a confirmation first.

What kind of transaction are these for; for a payment, a transfer to someone, a transfer to yourself? You can choose to create yet another transaction(which is mentioned above) or to have a replace-by-fee on transaction 3 which will invalidate transaction 1 and 2. Afterwhich, you can choose to create a new transaction that is similar to transaction 3 and continue with transaction 1 and 2.

Replace-by-fee is cheaper than CPFP.

Yeah, this order sounds about correct

Transaction 3 is a transfer to someone
Transaction 1 and 2 are for payments to 2 different vendors

So right now, I will need to get transaction 3 confirmed first, then repost transaction 1 and 2, right ? If transaction 3 doesn't get a confirmation, transaction 1 and 2 would never go through


15  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 01:05:11 PM
The first 2 transactions are marked as 'Unconfirmed Parent' and the third transaction is marked as 'Unconfirmed'. What's the difference, do they link with each other ?
When electrum says that a transaction has unconfirmed parent, it means that the fund which is being tried to send in that transaction has been received in a transaction which is still unconfirmed.

Assume that you have sent bitcoin from address A to address B and then the same coin from address B to address C.
As long as the transaction made from address A to address B is unconfirmed, the transaction made from address B to address C can't be confirmed.

The two transactions that have been marked as "unconfirmed parent" can't be confirmed before confirmation of their parent.

Can you share your transactions IDs?
With sharing your transactions, you may hurt your privacy. But it won't have anything with your security.

Right

I made transaction 3 first, then 1 and 2 (not remember the order between 1 and 2)

Is transaction 3 (Unconfirmed) the parent for transaction 1 and 2 (Unconfirmed Parent)
16  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 12:56:00 PM
My wallet has enough funds to make the 3 transactions above, there's no ongoing pending transactions before I made any of the 3 payments. I don't understand why the 'Unconfirmed Parent' occurred
An input that you used is unconfirmed. Check the transaction details and you'll realize that if you check the inputs of the transactions with unconfirmed parent, at least one of the input is unconfirmed.

I open the details for all 3 transactions, each has inputs and outputs

There's one output in transaction 3 (Unconfirmed) is the same as one input in transaction 1(Unconfirmed Parent)

There's one output in transaction 1 (Unconfirmed Parent) is the same as one input in transaction 2(Unconfirmed Parent)

What are the relationship of these 3 transactions ?

17  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
I haven't understood what you said 'Note that increasing the fee for your first transaction invalidates the later (child) transactions'
Assume that you have sent bitcoin from address A to address B and then sent the same coin from address B to address C.
If you bump the fee of the transaction made from address A to address B, the transaction made from address B to address C becomes invalid.


-----------
The total virtual size of your transactions is 427 vbyte and the total fee paid for three transactions is 3953 satoshi.
This means that the effective fee rate is around 9 sat/vbyte.
Your transactions are now around 45 vMB from the the tip and you shouldn't expect them to be confirmed soon.

If you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 3.
Currently, for a fast confirmation, the fee of around 20 sat/vbyte is required.
Given the total size of your transactions are  427 vbytes, you should pay 8540 satoshi in total.
You have paid 2945 satoshi for the first two transactions and you need to pay 5595 satoshi for the third transaction. So, you need to bump its fee to 38 sat/vbtye.

Again, if you are not in hurry, just wait.

Edit:
I assumed that transaction 3 is spending the fund received in transaction 2 and transaction 2 is spending the fund received in transaction 1.

The first 2 transactions are marked as 'Unconfirmed Parent' and the third transaction is marked as 'Unconfirmed'. What's the difference, do they link with each other ?

Initially, my wallet have enough fund to make these 3 payments, they should be coming out independently, don't understand why 2 of them are 'Unconfirmed Parent'

I remember I made the third transaction first (the Unconfirmed one), I made the other 2 transactions (Unconfirmed Parent) after that, but not sure which one of the 2 I sent first.

18  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 12:31:36 PM
It can be both.

If there is an unconfirmed parent then you can use CPFP (Child Pays For Parent) meaning (more or less) that your transaction has a high enough fee that a miner will also mine one of the incoming (parent) transactions.

If you sent the transaction with a fee high enough that a miner will not want to include the parent then you have to wait.

If you do not have RBF (replace by fee) set to on then once you broadcast that transaction it's out there, you cannot add a larger fee to get it confirmed more quickly.

I'm on mobile so I can't see the images.

If you give the TXID others can probably help more.

-Dave


Yes, 'replace by fees' is on for all 3 transactions

A few points I haven't understood:

How do I do a CPFP?

You said the fees need to be high enough so miner will mine one of the incoming (parent) transactions, but you mentioned miner will also not want to include the parent if my fee is high enough. I am a little confused
19  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
As far as I understand, you already have one unconfirmed transaction and you are trying to send another or the you have an incoming unconfirmed transaction and you are trying to send it while it's still unconfirmed?

Either way, you just need to wait for that unconfirmed transaction to get atleast 1 confirmation before you can send your balance. That yellow exclamation is a sign that the source of your funds is still not confirmed on blockchain.

My wallet has enough funds to make the 3 transactions above, there's no ongoing pending transactions before I made any of the 3 payments. I don't understand why the 'Unconfirmed Parent' occurred
20  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem on: May 13, 2022, 12:11:16 PM
Here's the amount of bitcoin I tried to sent

First transaction (Unconfirmed parent): 0.00051675 BTC
Second transaction(Unconfirmed parent): 0.00047 BTC
Third transaction(Unconfirmed): 0.00021227 BTC
The amount doesn't matter. Take the total fees of all of the transactions and divide by their size. For example:

If TX 1 is paying 1000 satoshis in fees, 300 bytes, TX 2 2000 satoshis in fees, 400 bytes, TX 3 4000 satoshis in fees, 400 bytes. Then the effective TX fees across all of the transactions would be 7000/1100: 6.3 satoshis/byte. If the result of your calculation isn't at least 12 satoshis/byte then you probably won't get a confirmation so soon.

Transaction 1 (Unconfirmed parent)

Fees   : 0.00002016 BTC (14.3 sat/vB)
Size:   223 B
Virtual Size: 142 vB

Transaction 2 (Unconfirmed parent)

Fees: 0.00000929 BTC (6.6 sat/vB)
Size:   222 B
Virtual Size: 141 vB

Transaction 3 (Unconfirmed)

Fees: 0.00001008 BTC (7.0 sat/vB)
Size:   225 B
Virtual Size: 144 vB
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