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How can I login, now that you require a Google account?
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I've been testing a somewhat old version from github (77c462709129376c2f259561d4e9af25c4e38303). The only thing I grab from more recent versions is pools.cfg. I got 47% of the block owner guesses correct... This seems kind of disappointing, but in fact it's much better than pident score accuracy (34%) which seems to be the method to be beaten.
I don't know if people are saving stats, but are newer versions any better? If yes, with or without p2p turned on?
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You would better all join triplemining .. The pool that welcomes y'all  Help me crack this block and i promise i'll be the first pool to reward hoppers with BTC www.triplemining.comEvery block finder gets 5 additional BTC I got everything I have pointed to you also. What a shame I haven't got your Flash Mob notice before (been away for the weekend). Let's crack this hell block! |
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@joulesbeef, @teukon, A quick look at pident suggests that it is quite easy to tell when a certain pool has finished a block so I assume that the remaining problem is finding a pool which doesn't detect and ban pool-hopping behaviour. Again, I know little about the existing practical situation and am speaking purely in terms of theory and mathematics. I'm sure if I mined with a proportional pool I'd know more but I'm with simplecoin.us (which uses PPLNS) specifically so I don't have to worry about implementing pool hopping.
The "guess thing" you describe is a good idea when you have partial information.
All I meant to point out is that if one would like to pool hop with a big proportional pool and is having difficulty with the LP aspect then they can at least make some gains by using the information on the bitcoin network (if the pool is sufficiently large).
Check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33732.msg423533#msg423533If that guy's math is right (there might be other variables to consider), teukon might not be too wrong by assuming deepbit most of the time. I think bitHopper is already doing better than that, though, and it is still improving... but I lack the numbers to back that up. WRT using pident method... unless it improves, I would not use it alone. They report 36% accuracy in the score system! So, much better to flip a coin. |
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Hm... I might be dead in another week... Difficulty could sky-rocket and render my poor GPU unprofitable. Come on... this is basic economics... money now is more valuable than money in a week... All this argument is just because we don't agree on how much time should be considered. One more reason to let pool hoppers be. After all, as another poster says:
Your arguments are getting too ridiculous to be worth responding to. Have a nice day. Might be... Thanks for your time. It was enlightening. |
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That is not a fact. I am sorry, but that seems to be an assumption you made based in some biased view of the game. Those "non-hoppers" that are in the pool might not even had what to share among them if not by the hashing power added (briefly) by the hoppers. Let me put it this way: if a non-hopper would be given this choice: (a) mine in a pool which accepts only non-hoppers and take a week to solve a block or (b) mine in a pool which accepts hoppers and non-hoppers and solve a block in half a week, what do you think the non-hopper would choose? The first choice, since it gives him a higher return per share. Unlikely. Unless one doesn't understand the randomic nature of the distribution of block rewards. In that spare half-week that same pool could have found 3 more blocks (or not  ) It all comes down to the fact that profit cannot be taken in account alone and depends on time. I want to have 1 million dollars in account, but I want it now... not when I am too old to spend it. So, non-hoppers would choose (b). So should everybody. And that is the (oversimplified) economics of it.
Would you rather have a thousand dollars in a week or two thousand dollars in two weeks? Unless you either desperately need money now or are a moron, you would take the two thousand dollars in two weeks. Hm... I might be dead in another week... Difficulty could sky-rocket and render my poor GPU unprofitable. Come on... this is basic economics... money now is more valuable than money in a week... All this argument is just because we don't agree on how much time should be considered. One more reason to let pool hoppers be. After all, as another poster says: tell me this... did you come to bitcoin mining before our after it became profitable.. will you leave if the price drops to a penny? if yes congrats you are a hopper.
IMHO, calling pool hoopers dicks is the same as calling Satoshi Nakamoto or Gavin Andresen (or any of bitcoin starters) dicks. |
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As I said, that is not likely. If a bunch of pool hoopers have invested shares in a small pool in the begining of a block (they seem to do that until some point early in the block) and this pool is currently starving (left with a huge block to solve and little hashing power to do it), pool hoppers will go back to it helping finish it (as long as there's no more profitable alternatives). The problem in your reasoning is where I added emphasis. A pool hopper can always contributed to a PPS pool. So there will always be more profitable alternatives. Hm... And what about Proportional pools? Should we all leave them? I don't think that is very civic... As long as there are pool owners holding Proportional pools, pool hoppers should be welcome into them. Actually, many small pools would not get any blocks if they were not Proportional, since people would rather mine in a well-stablished pool... this leave just the pool hoppers to get into that new pool. IMHO, if your argument is "leave all the Proportional pools out to die of starvation", my point is made. No need for further discussion. And it's not accurate that "pool hoppers profit at the expense of the non-hoppers". After all, they have actually invested hashing power... they just point their hashing power to some (currently) more profitable pool... IMHO, it's the same as investing money in a more profitable stock. Pool hoppers do profit at the expense of the non-hoppers. The more pool hoppers in a pool, the less return per-share those who feed the pool shares at a constant rate get. That is a fact. That is not a fact. I am sorry, but that seems to be an assumption you made based in some biased view of the game. Those "non-hoppers" that are in the pool might not even had what to share among them if not by the hashing power added (briefly) by the hoppers. Let me put it this way: if a non-hopper would be given this choice: (a) mine in a pool which accepts only non-hoppers and take a week to solve a block or (b) mine in a pool which accepts hoppers and non-hoppers and solve a block in half a week, what do you think the non-hopper would choose? It all comes down to the fact that profit cannot be taken in account alone and depends on time. I want to have 1 million dollars in account, but I want it now... not when I am too old to spend it. So, non-hoppers would choose (b). So should everybody. And that is the (oversimplified) economics of it. |
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Right, but the higher the percentage of pool hoppers, the higher the percentage of the time the pool's expected payout per share is below average. This means that the more pool hoppers, the lower the pool's payout to someone who contributes shares at a constant rate. That is, pool hoppers profit at the expense of the non-hoppers.
As I said, that is not likely. If a bunch of pool hoopers have invested shares in a small pool in the begining of a block (they seem to do that until some point early in the block) and this pool is currently starving (left with a huge block to solve and little hashing power to do it), pool hoppers will go back to it helping finish it (as long as there's no more profitable alternatives). And it's not accurate that "pool hoppers profit at the expense of the non-hoppers". After all, they have actually invested hashing power... they just point their hashing power to some (currently) more profitable pool... IMHO, it's the same as investing money in a more profitable stock. |
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Because if everyone in the pool is a pool hopper, the pool will die the first time it has bad luck. If every miner will only mine when the payout is more than he could get from a PPS pool, as soon as the payout is expected to be less, nobody will mine and the pool will die. That is really unlikely. First because not everyone in the pool is a pool hopper - at least the pool owner is not . Second, pool hoppers have a great incentive to keep a pool alive if they have invested time in it. IMHO, the whole "pool hopping is cheating" argument seems to don't take in account the power of economic incentive... Besides, small pools might benefit from pool hoppers in the first place, since, at least for the time they hop into it, they might have more mining power than they would ever get otherwise. |
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I think it is more just considered being a dick. Hm... I think I get your point... But isn't the possibility of pool hopping open to anyone? I've been watching people worried in puting counter-measures in place to make pool hopping more difficult. Most of these measures end up harming the occasional miner (PPLNS, scores), or preventing new pools to get in the scene (PPS only works if the pool have some BTC in reserve)... I think that, if the possibility is open to anyone to exploit, why not leave it be. I can't see a pool hopper as a "dick", as you put it (or as a cheater, for that matters). |
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So, is pool hopping generally considered creating?
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Acho que o nome do tópico é bem explicativo, mas contarei a história completa:
Em 3 meses comprarei um novo PC, com duas 6970's (para jogar/minar) e eu gostaria de saber a opinião de vocês, pessoal mais cm mais experiência no mundo das bitcoins, se vale a pena vender o meu computador por 800R$ (preço baixo pra vender rápido) e comprar tudo em BTC ou se valeria mais aproveitar os seus 95MH/s extras.
Mantida a atual taxa de elevação da dificuldade, em 3 meses ela pode estar tão alta que não vai mais valer a pena minerar... Veja essa thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27618.0 |
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Casas de câmbio de Bitcoins PRECISAM pipocar por todo o país! Com hospedagens na Locaweb, Terra, UOL, etc e etc...
Ter uma casa de câmbio de bitcoins na Internet TEM que ser tão simples quanto instalar o Joomla ou o Drupal!!!
Quem está comigo?! Eu estou terminando de instalar o Bitcoin Central, vou documentar todo o procedimento aqui no fórum, já instalei o sistema umas 10 vezes, sempre começando do zero, e documentanto tudo para todos...
Eu também penso assim. O bitcoin pode acabar dando em nada, mas pode se tornar um bom instrumento para nós, os pobres mortais, nesses tempos em que os bancos mandam no mundo. Queria ver o que vc jah conseguiu com o Bitcoin Central... eventualmente ateh ajudar... |
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