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1  Economy / Economics / Re: If the dollar/fiat was worthless! on: April 08, 2023, 10:38:44 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?
You missed a very important point,Bitcoin is also convertible into other currencies,so even the theoretical fall of the dollar to 0 will not greatly affect the price. Yes, of course, at first there will be a panic in the market and Bitcoin will lose a lot in price, but it will definitely not cost 0 .This is its main advantage, it is freely convertible both in currency and in goods as well and can be exchanged for a service.

Dollar/fiat
2  Economy / Economics / Re: If the dollar/fiat was worthless! on: April 08, 2023, 10:25:46 PM
Great answer! What kind of system could we create for a smooth transition were everything would be valued by something other then fiat which would not be affected by inflation?
You are again forgetting the difference between value and price. Things are not valued in fiat, they are priced in fiat. Value of all currencies (dollar, euro, yuan, bitcoin, yen, ...) is in their purchasing power.

Lets say bitcoin price is $28000 and you want to buy an iPhone that is $800 so you pay 0.02854BTC. If dollar tanks and loses half of its value today, you can still buy the same iPhone with 0.02854BTC tomorrow even though at that time bitcoin should technically be worth $56,000.
This is the difference between value and price in simple terms. Bitcoin value and the iPhone value remained the same so you paid the same amount of bitcoin for its purchase despite the price of both bitcoin and iPhone going up against dollar.

To answer your question, we don't need any system for transition. Bitcoin is a stand alone currency that does not rely on fiat currency of one country. The market may be affected because it is still a small market and market participants are known for their emotional reactions but that's about it.

So what you are basically saying is that if the dollar loses half of its value today, you can buy the Iphone for 0.02854BTC, then you could sell it again for 1600$. And buy 0.05708BTC for that money you earned from the Iphone sale. And keep on doing this until the price of bitcoin catches up. But if I understand you correctly you are saying that as long as goods and services are priced in bitcoin, there wont be a problem with buying and selling in bitcoin, which is really a given - but how do we get to this point? And more interesting if that iphone is priced in bitcoin and it is also priced in dollar, euro, yuan etc. how will this affect eachother?

Like now the norwegian krone is worth much less compared to euro and dollar, which means that it is cheaper for europe and america to buy salmon from norway today then it was a few months ago.
3  Economy / Economics / Re: Is taking a loan/debt addicted ? on: April 07, 2023, 10:36:02 PM
Well, I have to clarify that personally I have never had any loan or debt in my life so this thread has nothing to do with my experience but intends to find out how people in loan/debt deal with the problem. Let's say you take loans from a bank and sometimes for whatever reason, you can not pay the debt on time, then you borrow money from other channels. Sure this works for a certain period but later bad things may happen, you have to postpone the payment and struggle with finances again. Isn't this a vicious circle ? How would you deal with the problem ? I am all ears.

Well, the bank have some responsibilities too. If they gave you a loan that you were never supposed to get based on your income, then there are ways were you don't have to pay. For farmers in Norway you have to take loans if you want to upgrade your farm, the loan will be so expensive so they are not able to pay it back with their income because the prices of their goods are decided by some big players in the industry. And the farm is worth less then what they have in loan so that is also not a good option, but usually many farmers have secondary jobs. That is also a solution, work more, work harder, freeze in the winter (don't use money on heat), go in the forest and pick berries and mushrooms, fish in the ocean etc.  Angry

But the it is really like you said, it is a vicious circle the banks put us through with all the loans and to pay with credit. Vicious people and the worst pyramide scheme ever, Bernard Madoff is nothing compared to these guys.
4  Economy / Economics / Re: If the dollar was worthless! on: April 07, 2023, 10:14:25 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

If the dollar goes to 0 then Bitcoin will still be 1B = 1B.  Bitcoin valuation in terms of fiat currency will be interpreted in another currency if the valuation of Bitcoin in dollar is somehow impossible (dollar getting 0 valuation).  Bitcoin fiat valuation or equivalent can be presented in pounds, yuan, euro or any other fiat currency.  After all dollar is just another currency of thousand that is existing in the global market.

Great answer, but what if all other fiat currency went to shit aswell?

We can look into that in theory, if all fiat currency goes 0 valuations, and only Bitcoin has worth, then as I stated, 1B=1B.  Depending on the Bitcoin market valuation, fiat currency now has no purchasing power since all of them goes 0 in value, then Bitcoin will be the global currency and can be used to purchase goods and services.   The worth of Bitcoin depends on the market valuation and how much to pay for 1 loaf of bread is dependent on that.  

Bitcoin can't be interpreted in any fiat currency since the situation, in theory, is stated that all went to shit, meaning fiat currencies are equivalent to 0 valuations.  We cannot give any conversion if one factor is equivalent to 0.

Perfect! So everyone that could not provide any services or sell any goods would not have the posibilites to buy bitcoin at that time. This would make the transition to the time where fiat is no more very complicated... while there are probably 1000 other things to be worried about at that time.

But lets say we would want the world's economy to be completely decentralized with no fiat, and no inflation politics. How could we create a smooth transition where there won't a complete havock?
5  Economy / Economics / Re: Dollar is worthless! on: April 07, 2023, 10:08:16 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

Bitcoin is not Dollar and the problem with dollar lossing value is because it's being excessively printed, where Bitcoin has a limited supply which can never be increased.
 The value of bitcoin will increase over time as long as more people continue to adopt it. Apart from the dollar, the devaluation of fiat currency in most countries is so bad that even a thousand dollars cannot  be used to purchase many things on the market.
That's exactly the problem with fiat currency, the currency always looses value overtime and this always result to massive inflation in the economy where as bitcoin always reflect the opposite of inflation as more adopt it and that's what makes it very unique. Let me use the fiat currency in my country for example, before now like a decade ago the Nigerian 1000 note can actually get you a bag of cement and some buildings materials but due to the excessive printing of the currency it has lost it value totally as you cannot even get a good meal at the restaurant with your 1000 naira note.

Yeah, and that is a big problem. Lets say you had some sort of mechanism that would give that bag of cement a given value, and it will allways be that value. a bag of cement will allways cost a bag of cement. So if the Nigerian 1000 Note was like bitcoin, it would be more worth in the future because of its deflationary effect. That would mean that in time you could buy two bags of cement 1 for that 1000 Note.
6  Economy / Economics / Re: If the dollar/fiat was worthless! on: April 07, 2023, 10:00:36 PM
What people did back in the day when there were no currency? They traded goods for goods. It's all about demand and necessity. If you need 2 potatoes, but the only option you have is to trade 3/4 onions. And that's the only option you have in this situation. So you will be willing to trade that for the 2 potatoes. Because you need it.
So if you compare that potatoes and onions with Bitcoin and goods, then you can easily value it without the help of USD. It's just easy to do it if you compare the value of BTC with USD. That's why people do it. We just need a new system and calculation for every item with BTC's value, and then you can get the actual value of BTC.

I may have explained in a complicated way. But it is what it is. Demand is the key for value.

Great answer! What kind of system could we create for a smooth transition were everything would be valued by something other then fiat which would not be affected by inflation?
7  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation and Deflation of Price and Money Supply on: April 07, 2023, 09:23:12 AM
Finally, back to the original discussion, market cap may be an indicator which we can study to understand supply and demand. However, it is not a primary cause of supply and demand or BTC value. If market cap measured in USD was a primary cause of BTC value, then we should all view BTC as a bank to temporarily deposit USD and maybe collect some interest (making BTC a ponzi scheme).

The appeal of having some BTC is not at all the market cap measured in USD. Without speaking for everyone, I believe BTC's appeal and inherent value is secure storage of value coupled with convenient exchange of value. Looking at the market cap is still informative though.

The value of a USD $1 will decrease because USD suffers continuous inflation. The value of 1 BTC will increase for the time being because demand for BTC is increasing faster than supply. And after most of the BTC have been mined, the value of 1 BTC will increase because of the deflationary nature of BTC. But we should definitely have this discussion again at that point, to see what it means for the miners.

As mentioned in the original post, a large part of Bitcoin's positive value (which increases the exchange rate of BTC) is the DEMAND for Bitcoin, via the physical manifestation of that ideological value through trade (in this case, BUYING BTC). However, this is not the end of the story, and you bring up this great philosophical question which I am delighted to dive into! So now we must travel deeper into this rabbit hole, as we ask, what creates this demand!? Why do people find Bitcoin valuable enough to trade anything for it?!

Here is my response to this question in a related discussion at What is bitcoin backed by? My favorite answers

"What is Bitcoin backed by?"

It is backed by value.
Value is created by people, it is not intrinsic to anything except ideas (opinions).
Certain resources (gold, dollars, real estate, stocks, etc) have great monetary value in our society because we look for, or create, certain properties in them when following a particular - the most popular - economic theory at the time.
As an example, if we all started to adopt the theory of resource-based economics, widely promoted by Peter Joseph who created the Zeitgeist movie-series, we would value resources very differently.
So what makes Bitcoin valuable to people (adopters) in a capitalistic economy?
It can be a multitude of reasons:

  • Deflation is better than inflation
  • It is better to have a decentralized power
  • Transactions in Bitcoin are cheaper, easier in a digital world
  • The Blockchain: a PUBLIC record of every transaction
  • I hate Ben Bernanke or the Federal Reserve System
  • The security of Bitcoin's cryptography
  • Irreversible transactions
  • A new economy to start a bushiness in
  • Anonymity (if done properly)
  • Dude, I can buy drugs like I buy shit on Amazon... awesome
  • I don't know, my friend uses it and I just follow whatever they does cause I think they're cool (majority of people)
  • I like code
  • I like turtle
  • Miner: "Free money man!"
  • we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years
  • Etc...

Therefore, we can certainly add to our list that "Mining increases the value of each BTC because it reinforces 'the way BTC works'" and its "secure storage of value coupled with convenient exchange of value."  Personally, I agree with you on both accounts and believe those to be some of the more important and valuable aspects of Bitcoin.

As for the comment regarding Market Capitalization: after this post, I think you have a better understanding of where I was coming from when I posted it, so certainly not arguing with you there!  Wink

I am actually working on creating an inflation-adjusted BTC/USD chart at the moment, just to have a solid visual of that here. Though, honestly, you could just look at a Bitcoin chart priced in gold and you would have another somewhat-similar visual. Like the Market Cap chart, this is just another representation of Bitcoin's value, yes, but I do think they are important when attempting to predict market trends, as you know.

A chart of that can be found at a fellow Bitcoin users blog: http://pricedingold.com/



It's a cool blog. He charts pretty much everything in terms of gold. Lots of great data!!


I may be looking at it wrong, but I am very curious about what inflation does to the value of bitcoin - and I am deep in this rabbit hole. Lets say everyone in the world would accept bitcoin, and You wanted to buy 1 tonn of aluminium from me. We would both look at the value of bitcoin in for example dollars... yes? At this point in the future the price of 1 bitcoin would be 1M$, and that is what 1 tonn of aluminium would be worth at that time. So we trade 1 tonn aluminium for 1 bitcoin. Next year the government would have printed so much money so the market price of 1 tonn aluminium now would cost 1,5M$... For this example lets just say that 1 bitcoin would still be worth 1M$. Then I would want 1.5 bitcoin for the same amount of aluminium, therefore bitcoin has lost its value even when the price is the same.

Am I overthinking this? Is it so easy that if I would accept aluminum in bitcoin, then the price of aluminium would be in bitcoin instead of dollars? Or would it be better to have something else that would give a value of a product or service like for example energy?

Will we see an example of what will happen in real life soon if the BRICS start trading oil with other currency then the dollar?
8  Economy / Economics / Re: If the dollar was worthless! on: April 06, 2023, 11:08:39 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

If the dollar goes to 0 then Bitcoin will still be 1B = 1B.  Bitcoin valuation in terms of fiat currency will be interpreted in another currency if the valuation of Bitcoin in dollar is somehow impossible (dollar getting 0 valuation).  Bitcoin fiat valuation or equivalent can be presented in pounds, yuan, euro or any other fiat currency.  After all dollar is just another currency of thousand that is existing in the global market.

Great answer, but what if all other fiat currency went to shit aswell?
9  Economy / Economics / Re: Dollar is worthless! on: April 06, 2023, 11:00:57 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?
Let's not rush to judgment about news of dedollarization. There are many things that don't look good now, but I wouldn't rule out anything from the USA, everything seems to be political and the USA looks very calm. Although it may look like they are playing it safe, the dollar is still doing well despite all of the news.

Yes of course. This is just a hypotethical exercise. I guess I have to edit the subject  Cheesy
10  Economy / Economics / Re: Dollar is worthless! on: April 06, 2023, 10:54:41 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?

Bitcoin is not Dollar and the problem with dollar Lossing value is because it's being excessively printed, where are Bitcoin has a limited supply which can never be increased.


Yes, but the printed dollar does not go straight into bitcoin. Which means that the value of bitcoin also decreases as the value of dollar increases.
11  Economy / Economics / If the dollar/fiat was worthless! on: April 06, 2023, 10:42:00 PM
What happens to the value of bitcoin if the dollar goes to 0? Will bitcoin also loose value because the dollar is worthless? yes, there would probably be other things to mind like world war, full panic, no internett and so on. But set these things aside. How much would a sack of potatoes cost, and with what could I buy these potatous witth(gold/bitcoin/chickens/etc.)?

Any ideas? and any ideas on how bitcoin could be independant of the dollar, or other fiat?


I see a lot of good ideas here.

The reason for this thread is to explore if there are some other ways to value bitcoin. Like many of you said, it would probably just hop over to the next largest currency. But do we want the bitcoin to allways be dependant on another currency and its inflatory politics? Many of you also said that the dollar will never go to 0 and there is no reason to worry about this. But every currency in the world is loosing value everyday. Therefore bitcoin is also loosing its value. it may be a stupid question, but would it not be better to have another way to value bitcoin so you could allways buy 1 sack of potatoes for 1 satoshi for exampel?  
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