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Bill Gates know nothing about Bitcoin.  He doesn't know the real problems with BTC,but take the Benefits as problems,that's stupid. He also doesn't know the real cost of Bitcoin system.  |
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Why not?
Is stellar1 your real name?
This is internet,keeping anonymous is most people's choice.
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yes. so buy 10 beers at one time.
i am serious . How will it be entegrated everyday life? It's not for everyday life. No meaning and no need. |
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I checked it again,I just can't find their method.Did I miss something? Yes. You have missed that these digits are bitcoin promotion. We can compare expenses of bitcoin network and bank system. But. We should compare the cost per transaction, not total expenses. We were just talking about where those numbers come from. |
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In fact,the cost of any digital currency's prodction is zero,whatever the digital currency come from(banks,bitcoin system、 a game etc.)
The only thing can be compare with the cost of bitcoin system is the clearing network.
Because Bitcoin network is just a clearing network.
The cost of bitcoin system is the cost of bitcoin clearing network and its security of the bicoin clearing network.
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First,I don't know where these coindesk's number come from，and,which part is counted. Second,I think some number should not put together. For example, glod mining and Bitcoin mining,It is different. It's not fair to both glod and Bitcoin. I included the link to the article that goes into detail on where they got the numbers. And those numbers are conservative. I checked it again,I just can't find their method.Did I miss something? It seems these details is the conclusion based on these number,but not the evidence of these number. |
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First,I don't know where these coindesk's number come from，and,which part is counted. Second,I think some number should not put together. For example, glod mining and Bitcoin mining,It is different. It's not fair to both glod and Bitcoin. |
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Developers can set transaction fees to any number,and the system will be no change,because the cost of Bitcoin system is not paid by transaction fees,but by block reward now.
If the block reward is zero,to keep the same security level,the transaction fees will be about 30 dollars.
Yes, but by then there should be more transactions in every block... at the moment they are pretty empty. The system was designed this way to reward miners so they would build up the necessary network security. It is the plan that the block reward will be offset by transaction fees as the network grows and more people use it. It is organic and has worked pretty well so far. Organic?So why is system's cost so high when transactions is just 200 times? A plan?Bitcoiner say Bitcoin is a cheap payment for transaction fee is just 0.0001,why? 25 bitcoins,0.0001*200 bitcoins,there is a big difference. And,a truth is, Bitcoin(PoW) need hash race,and,many computer work,but just one computer's working is effective at one time. So,I don't think there is a way to fill it. And I also have another question.If the transactions number is millions per ten minutes,will Bitcoin system work well?It seems no evidence. |
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Compare to mainframe used in banks,the cost of Bitcoin is much more higher.Now transaction fee is low because the cost of system is undertake by people who buy bitcoins,not people who use bitcoins.
The cost of using Visa and MC is huge. Shops must buy a dedicated terminal which costs at least $300, and there's a higher fee to pay for each transaction. Then there's Visa which I'm sure has back office with servers in every country the service is offered. We're talking of a network with several thousands dedicated servers in it. This wasn't made in a day, and it took billions to build... 1. In Bitcoin system,the number of transactions per ten minutes is about 200 times.In Visa clearing system,the number is millions. When you calculate the cost per transaction, it is generally accepted that the cost to process a bitcoin transaction is lower when you calculate the estimated electric cost. If you use the value of found blocks (including block subsidies) then visa is cheaper 2.
Bitcoin system is clearing system,but visa is not just clearing system(BASE II).
For example,if you lost your visa card,you can contact to visa,let them handle the problem.
you can also save money when you go shopping.
It need money,but it is not the cost of visa clearing system. You would actually contact the issuing bank to replace your lost/stolen credit card. The same goes with any payment disputes. The payment network would generally be unaffected 3.
Servers in visa clearing system just process transactions,but in Bitcoin system,Servers also do hash race,and just one servers' working is effective at one time.
If there is no block reward,the transactions fee would be about 30 dollars in Bitcoin system.
If there was no block subsidy (not reward) then yes the cost per transaction would be higher, although it would not quite be $30 per transaction. The theory is that over time the number of transactions will increase enough so that TX fees will rise enough to cover the reduced block subsidies. 1 and 2,I don't get your point. 3 Just as I said,Bitcoin(PoW) need hash race,and,many computer work,but just one computer's working is effective at one time. So,what you said will not happen. |
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it is actually not expensive because you could maintain the network with less miners.
the point it that more and more miners are insanely increasing the network power
Less miners,less security. If all bitcoin worth 1 million and attacker is going to using 10 thousands to attack the Bitcoin system, then,when all bitcoin worth 10 millions,the attacker is going to using 100 thousands to attack the Bitcoin system. |
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You mean transactions' processing is not contained in mining?
It's seem to be different from my understanding.
Just 218 transactions per 10 minutes,cost is 6950 dollars,is it because of PoW,will it happened again after 20 years later?
For example,there are some transactions,it need one computer to process,but in Bitcoin system,it need 200 computers to hash race,20 computer to process transactions itself,and just one computer's working is effective.So how can bitcoin's cost be lower?
I don't get your point. 1. See https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions we have ~ 100000 transactions/day, this results in 694 transactions/10minutes 2. I won't agree to set costs to 6950 dollar, in case I mine all bitcoins and safe them in my wallet, the costs to mine do not change but the price would highly probably went up and so your calculated costs would went up too. 3. I would not set dollar as the basis for a calculation of the costs, because the dollar should not be seen as a "god", and if we really want to discuss the costs, we should have a look at the energy consumption, needed materials for example to build miner/computer, working hours and so on. 1. I just talk about an example,which shows the real average cost of Bitcoin system. 2. In fact,it has gone up too if you use it now. The system cost is relative to the price now,because it is paid by block reward(25 coins). And the security level is relative to the system cost. 3. If the block reward is zero,to keep the same security level,the transaction fees will be about 30 dollars. |
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338492 16 minutes 306 3,975.02 BTC KnCMiner 134.8
338491 18 minutes 174 4,104.85 BTC GHash.IO 99.3
338490 23 minutes 73 755.77 BTC AntPool 62.36
338489 22 minutes 66 707.01 BTC KnCMiner 36.18
338488 25 minutes 418 10,970.23 BTC AntPool 521.66
338487 31 minutes 269 4,067.65 BTC 85.195.114.243 685.81
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average number of transactions per block:218
The value of 25 bitcoins:278*25=6950
The cost of per transaction:6950/218=31.8(dollars)
218 transactons per ten minutes,It can be processed by a Gameboy or APLLE II.But in Bitcoin system,it need 6950 dollars per ten minutes,30024000 dollars per month.
So, when the block reward is cut in half will the cost to run the network half as well? How many coins are rewarded each block for the PoS, Litecoin system? It will be two possibility：transactions fee higher or security lower. The biggest part of Bitcoin system'cost is for defending from 51% attack. You've confused the block reward and the transaction fees. The 25 bitcoin reward is paid to the miners by the bitcoin network and that will halve in 2016. The transaction fees are what is paid over and above the 25btc block reward. At the moment it is usually less than 1btc per block and that it all that is paid by the users as transaction fees. Developers can set transaction fees to any number,and the system will be no change,because the cost of Bitcoin system is not paid by transaction fees,but by block reward now. If the block reward is zero,to keep the same security level,the transaction fees will be about 30 dollars. |
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Compare to mainframe used in banks,the cost of Bitcoin is much more higher.Now transaction fee is low because the cost of system is undertake by people who buy bitcoins,not people who use bitcoins.
The cost of using Visa and MC is huge. Shops must buy a dedicated terminal which costs at least $300, and there's a higher fee to pay for each transaction. Then there's Visa which I'm sure has back office with servers in every country the service is offered. We're talking of a network with several thousands dedicated servers in it. This wasn't made in a day, and it took billions to build... 1. In Bitcoin system,the number of transactions per ten minutes is about 200 times.In Visa clearing system,the number is millions. 2. Bitcoin system is clearing system,but visa is not just clearing system(BASE II). For example,if you lost your visa card,you can contact to visa,let them handle the problem. you can also save money when you go shopping. It need money,but it is not the cost of visa clearing system. 3. Servers in visa clearing system just process transactions,but in Bitcoin system,Servers also do hash race,and just one servers' working is effective at one time. If there is no block reward,the transactions fee would be about 30 dollars in Bitcoin system. |
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338492 16 minutes 306 3,975.02 BTC KnCMiner 134.8
338491 18 minutes 174 4,104.85 BTC GHash.IO 99.3
338490 23 minutes 73 755.77 BTC AntPool 62.36
338489 22 minutes 66 707.01 BTC KnCMiner 36.18
338488 25 minutes 418 10,970.23 BTC AntPool 521.66
338487 31 minutes 269 4,067.65 BTC 85.195.114.243 685.81
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average number of transactions per block:218
The value of 25 bitcoins:278*25=6950
The cost of per transaction:6950/218=31.8(dollars)
218 transactons per ten minutes,It can be processed by a Gameboy or APLLE II.But in Bitcoin system,it need 6950 dollars per ten minutes,30024000 dollars per month.
So, when the block reward is cut in half will the cost to run the network half as well? How many coins are rewarded each block for the PoS, Litecoin system? It will be two possibility：transactions fee higher or security lower. The biggest part of Bitcoin system'cost is for defending from 51% attack. |
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338492 16 minutes 306 3,975.02 BTC KnCMiner 134.8
338491 18 minutes 174 4,104.85 BTC GHash.IO 99.3
338490 23 minutes 73 755.77 BTC AntPool 62.36
338489 22 minutes 66 707.01 BTC KnCMiner 36.18
338488 25 minutes 418 10,970.23 BTC AntPool 521.66
338487 31 minutes 269 4,067.65 BTC 85.195.114.243 685.81
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average number of transactions per block:218
The value of 25 bitcoins:278*25=6950
The cost of per transaction:6950/218=31.8(dollars)
218 transactons per ten minutes,It can be processed by a Gameboy or APLLE II.But in Bitcoin system,it need 6950 dollars per ten minutes,30024000 dollars per month.
You mix mining (coin generation := central bank) and handling transactions. In fact you also generate coins while processing transactions. The cost for Bitcoin is the cost to have a financial system. The costs will always be > 0. But the costs for Bitcoin are < the costs for the classical financial system. You mean transactions' processing is not contained in mining? It's seem to be different from my understanding. Just 218 transactions per 10 minutes,cost is 6950 dollars,is it because of PoW,will it happened again after 20 years later? For example,there are some transactions,it need one computer to process,but in Bitcoin system,it need 200 computers to hash race,20 computer to process transactions itself,and just one computer's working is effective.So how can bitcoin's cost be lower? |
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...
It is needed in Bitcoin system,but not needed in bank or visa system.
So how does Bitcoin compete wiht banks and visa etc.
Just the ATM machines worldwide use way more electricity than the Bitcoin network... This series of articles is worth a look on comparisons of energy usage: http://www.coindesk.com/tag/Under-the-Microscope/I don't know it is real or not,but if Bitcoin developed,Bitcoin also need ATM. Bitcoin is a clearing network,should not be confused with ATM. |
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338492 16 minutes 306 3,975.02 BTC KnCMiner 134.8
338491 18 minutes 174 4,104.85 BTC GHash.IO 99.3
338490 23 minutes 73 755.77 BTC AntPool 62.36
338489 22 minutes 66 707.01 BTC KnCMiner 36.18
338488 25 minutes 418 10,970.23 BTC AntPool 521.66
338487 31 minutes 269 4,067.65 BTC 85.195.114.243 685.81
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average number of transactions per block:218
The value of 25 bitcoins:278*25=6950
The cost of per transaction:6950/218=31.8(dollars)
218 transactons per ten minutes,It can be processed by a Gameboy or APLLE II.But in Bitcoin system,it need 6950 dollars per ten minutes,30024000 dollars per month.
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Bitcoin(PoW) need hash race,and,many computer work,but just one computer's working is effective at one time.
Compare to mainframe used in banks,the cost of Bitcoin is much more higher.Now transaction fee is low because the cost of system is undertake by people who buy bitcoins,not people who use bitcoins.
One block gives miner 25 new coins now,but new coin's production rate is reducing,more and more people will find the cost of bitcoin is too high.
What about PoS？PoS is better,but not good enough.POS do not need hash race,but also one computer's working is effective at one time.And,it is not fair to miner,The output does not relative to hardware input.
If people use virtual currency million times per second,the money spend on computing device、I/O device、electricity bills must not be ignored.Hardware cost/total cost higher,profit rate lower.the money spend on hardware is same,so rich investors will get higher profit rate.Only miner who has many coins is going to mine,it will lead to concentrate.
Following the same logic, maintaining armies for nation states requires large amounts of resources, but people still do it. The answer is simple - that's the cost of sovereignty to control the land. It's the same with PoW only we are talking about controlling the global money system. It is needed in Bitcoin system,but not needed in bank or visa system. So how does Bitcoin compete wiht banks and visa etc. Banks and visas of this world can impose sanctions and freeze your accounts, Bitcoin allows you to stay independent if you are willing to put some effort into it, while still maintaining integrity of the whole system and keeping its global reach. Of course,it is Bitcoin's advantage.But I I doubt how many people will be going to use Bitcoin if transactioin fee is 30 dollars in 2030. And,it's not just advantage.Bitcoin is free currency,if Bitcoin is lost or hacked,no one can get it back. |
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Bitcoin(PoW) need hash race,and,many computer work,but just one computer's working is effective at one time.
Compare to mainframe used in banks,the cost of Bitcoin is much more higher.Now transaction fee is low because the cost of system is undertake by people who buy bitcoins,not people who use bitcoins.
One block gives miner 25 new coins now,but new coin's production rate is reducing,more and more people will find the cost of bitcoin is too high.
What about PoS？PoS is better,but not good enough.POS do not need hash race,but also one computer's working is effective at one time.And,it is not fair to miner,The output does not relative to hardware input.
If people use virtual currency million times per second,the money spend on computing device、I/O device、electricity bills must not be ignored.Hardware cost/total cost higher,profit rate lower.the money spend on hardware is same,so rich investors will get higher profit rate.Only miner who has many coins is going to mine,it will lead to concentrate.
Following the same logic, maintaining armies for nation states requires large amounts of resources, but people still do it. The answer is simple - that's the cost of sovereignty to control the land. It's the same with PoW only we are talking about controlling the global money system. It is needed in Bitcoin system,but not needed in bank or visa system. So how does Bitcoin compete wiht banks and visa etc. |
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Litecoin is just a copy,but internet just need one.
So Litecoin is no use at all.
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