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They cannot just change the random_seed, because the SHA-256 server_seed_hash that you got before the game would be different. The probability of them changing the random_seed to a new one with the same hash (hash collision) is practically impossible. Also, that random_seed is not even used for the result calculation, so there is no point in changing that lol? If they change the random_seed, the result will be still the same (and the hash will be different = error on verifying.)
Only changing the server_seed would give a different result, but again, they cannot change that either without changing the hash (and therefor cheating in such way would be detectable if the user takes the time to verify the hash - that's exactly what provably fair is about.)
If it would be possible to change the server_seed to something else (while keeping the same hash), then all provably fair methods on all sites would be broken. Actually I am pretty sure at that point some parts of bitcoin and the internet will be broken too, so yeh..
Still, I don't really see any point of using that extra random_seed since the server_seed itself is already too difficult to brute force anyway. Like I said, I expect it's from being "overprotective" when building their implementation and looking at implementations that used server_roll instead of server_seed at that time. But it is not shady and there site is equally provably fair with or without that random seed.
Fair enough sir, i understand, glad to read you, i feel more in-lighted now. Thanks for the explanation. Regards |
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NLNico (who knows much more about this than I do) and ndnhc have explained already how hashes work. The server hash includes the random seed, and you can not adjust the random seed at will while keeping the same server has. That being said, this scam accusation is what it is: an accusation, and nothing more than that. Nice twist BTW, I did not tell you to open a spam-accusation-topic, I told you the hashes were discussed in the existing topic here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=687571.msg12137676#msg12137676Now the factsMod Loyce here. Before I became moderator at rollin.io, one Mod (asd) lost his Mod-status due to his rage issues. This was about half a year ago. Since then he's been spamming rollin's Chatter Box. He uses his own internet provider with dynamic IP addresses, anonymous proxies, and VPNs to do so. Rollin Admin has been more than kind to him, much more than he deserves in my opinion, and countless users and Mods have tried to talk to him. He has money problems, drinking problems, gambling problems, drugs problems, and so on. He blames everybody except himself, especially Admin, and keeps saying he wants his money back. Once he has money, he gambles until he loses it again. Then the rage starts. This spam in chat goes on for days in a row, as it's very easy to make a new account on rollin. Sometimes it stopped, for instance when he had a temporary job, but he always comes back. I'm saying this in public now, as it explains why this person wants to accuse rollin falsely. I'm not so worried about his privacy, as "asd" does not tie him to any real life connection. Everybody who has ever used rollin's Chatter Box knows who I'm talking about though. asd: get help! Hello sir, I appreciate that this thread helped you to tell me the story of your life, i hope the Chatter Box live long and healthy, i hope the "asd" stay away from drugs and alcohol ( don't do that kids, keep yourselves in school ). However the random seed is shady and manipulatable. And thank you for banning me from the Chatter Box so i was motivated to open the thread here where more brilliant minds can expose those ideas openly, and with more knowledge about the verification systems around the place. I'm more in-lighted, but not convinced. Regards |
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Because those sites that you just mentioned use a clear fair system of client seed that only client know and server hash that client know it too before the roll, it don't pop up from no where a third seed that can be for security but can be for monkey business as well.
Every site I know uses a slightly different method of provably fair system. For Rollin, the server seed and a random seed is used to get the server hash. Both the server seed and random seed is not shown to the player. (you can see it as one) The hash is shown to the player. Once the roll is made, both server seed and random seed is shown to the player, who can hash it see that they are the same. You can see that both the server seed and random seed can be taken as a single unknown string for which the hash is disclosed before the roll, which is exactly the same provably fair mechanism most off-chain dice sites use. Yes sir, i get that from the beginning, my point is that you don't know the random seed even knowing the server hash, the server seed and the suppose random seed, since there is a possibility of hash colliding, and change seeds changing output as well, and as i could find out this morning they use powerful amazon servers... I find the verify system shady, obscure, not ethical. Thas why the topic of the post is rollin is a scam !/? and not rollin is a scam!!! anyway i will not dare to put my money in their funny new creative fair system. regards |
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I'm sorry for disagree but NLNico just proved no doubt that it 100% do his homework and know what writes about what writes when he writes, rollin still shady until one seed that can be more than one be in their hands until the end of the roll, and even, why they bordered to create that extra seed, can be for good, can be for evil.
Why just Rollin? By your logic, Primedice, BitDice, BetKing just about every dice site with a provably fair system can find another seed with the same hash lol. And there can be no provably fair system. Hello sir Because those sites that you just mentioned use a clear fair system of client seed that only client know and server hash that client know it too before the roll, it don't pop up from no where a third seed that can be for security but can be for monkey business as well. Regards |
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-snip-
Thanks to NLNico to make clear this situation about rollin and i am also satisfied with this explanation so after this no doubt it 100% provably fair. Hello sir I'm sorry for disagree but NLNico just proved no doubt that it 100% do his homework and know what writes about what writes when he writes, rollin still shady until one seed that can be more than one be in their hands until the end of the roll, and even, why they bordered to create that extra seed, can be for good, can be for evil. Regards |
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In advance you get " server_hash" which is a combination of " server_seed + random_seed". The result is generated by the server_seed and the client_seed (latter is generated in the browser.) You can check that the server_seed was not changed after making the bet, by verifying the hash in combination with the random_seed. They don't know your client_seed in advance so they cannot calculate the end result before you bet. This makes Rollin provably fair. There is no way for Rollin to cheat without you noticing (if you verify the hash.) Why not just use server_seed without random_seed? I am guessing it is like an extra protection against brute-forcing the server_seed. Originally that comes from systems that don't give a server_seed but a server_roll_number (which would be easily brute-forced without extra random_seed.) But since their server_seed is long enough, I am pretty sure they could remove the random_seed indeed. However, currently the site is just as well provably fair. Ideally they would use the "nonce-method" too, because in theory for perfect provably-fair-usage, currently you should copy hash, change client_seed, verify, etc after each bet. But technically their implementation is fine for a "per roll" implementation (correctly generates random client_seed in browser, etc.) I BTW made a verifier for Rollin here: https://dicesites.com/rollin/verifier and an article about provably fair for those who want to learn the basics here: https://dicesites.com/provably-fairHello sir, Very well, after read, you are right and i agree with you, however, let me point it out that since long before the cryptographic hash collisions always exist, sha256 its not exception, making a fast search you can find articles like this about that matter: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/24732/probability-of-sha256-collisions-for-certain-amount-of-hashed-valuesI don't see why the need of the random seed be in their hands until the end of the roll, because with an hash collision the hash can be that one that they show or some other as we can read in the article above . I don't see the need of it and i find it shady stuff (and since when you send the bet request they get your client seed, and then server reply with what ever the output it is, they can do what ever they want to the random seed), however thanks for at last some technical explanation. I'm convinced that if they try to add one extra lets call it " protection " like the random seed is cause they are accustomed to do monkey business and that could be used for protection of the casino but as well for user prejudice. Regards |
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rollin is the best dice site and fair ...\o\o\o\O/o/o/o/
Hello sir, As you must know a casino is not a monopoly game for fun or any other kind of game for fun, if you don't have any kind of knowledge to support why is fair, please abstain from support it, since money don't grow from trees and who gamble need to make sure that the casino where they are in is fair, which as you can see in rollin case, a third seed that is only showed after you roll represent the possibility of the casino manipulate the output according to some algorithm, you should not encourage gamblers. Regards |
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Sorry sir , i re-read my post to make sure and i didn't ask for proofs and explanations, i point it out the fact of a third seed is being used after the roll to manipulate the output.
Regards
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 its weird did you try to contact the support? Hello sir, I didn't cause i don't need support, this is not a scam accusation, this is a scam fact, if you are accustomed with other gambling sites you must know that can't exist hidden seeds, if there is, means that site manipulate the output. Regards |
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As per My point Of View i don't think they are scam , i always win there  Hello sir, Using your technical speech, i have loved womans that lied to me, too. I'm talking about the verification system, if you have anything to say about that i would be glad to hear. Regards |
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Maybe they just misworded that statement - do you have any proof that it's not a randomly generated seed... created by the client? As it should be?
One simple way to prove - is there a place where you can input your own client seed?
Hello sir, If you place a bet in the site in question , you can check your client seed and server hash before you roll , what is ok , but after you roll if you check your bets, you will see a extra seed, that they use to manipulate the output according to their algorithm, what is in question here, is not what they state in their fair page, but what happen in reality. Regards |
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haha!! sorry but im pretty dumb..i have no clue about those things...sorry cant help you with that "random seed" thingy....i think only the admins of the site has the full knowledge about the full process... and only they can clearly explain where that thingy came from...so my best advice is to contact support on the site..one of the admins does the reply for such support request..you can ask them there..replies usually takes a day or two...but not longer, or better yet.. you can invite them to discuss it here on this thread..for only they can accurately answer your queries, so i hope you do so. and i really dont give a rats ass about such things...i only gamble for fun...winning is just a side prize Fair enough sir, but you should in figurative way of speaking , know where the bus goes before you enter in it. I don't say you can't have profit in rollin.io i just say that " the system " can manipulate the output. Any way for sure other users that are more familiarized with the verification system, will have their opinion about this unverifiable seed. Have a good night/ evening / day. regards |
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interesting.... hmmm...oh well, i have 3 accounts on positive profit there..so i really cant complain..  hmmm..but then again..all gambling sites are designed as to generate profit for the owners at the gamblers expense,..so.. guys, if you dont want to lose your money, just dont gamble in gambling sites..its not a good way to profit really..only few people really do..because for you to get big profit from gambling, someone or some people has to lose big time...so thats it... unless your just doing it for fun...gambling is not advisable..  Sir, i'am questioning about the fair system and i didn't read nothing about it from you, if you can explain me where the random seed comes from i appreciate And yes if all accounts were in loss that would be very lame and shocking. Regards |
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Hello ladies and gentleman's at request of Mod Loyce i will discuss this issue here Rollin is a scam cause of their " fair " system, lets take a look: You can check your server hash that will result in your server seed, and you can check (and define) your client seed, so far so good as all normal online dice casinos, however there is a miracle seed ( for the owners ) called " random seed ". According to their fair crap, all the math is correct, client seed + server seed + random seed, all is correct and it is! However how can you verify the fair of the roll if one of the seeds is given to you only after you roll, that magic scam seed (random seed) comes from the so so honest server, and serve to we..hmmm...humm...lets try figure it out what they say about the random seed: From: https://rollin.io/fair Before the player rolls, we generate a random string of characters on the server used as the "server seed". A hash of the server seed is shown to the player (to prove we can’t change the server seed). We create the server hash by combining the server seed and random seed together. Ok...interesting but..where the random seed comes from, why it is there...lets keep looking: server_hash = @crypto.SHA256 server_seed + random_seed wow wow!!! No wait, they just typed random_seed in there, no explanation where it comes and what it serve to, Lets keep reading more boring scam stuff to find from where " random seed " (scam seed) comes from: The player provides his own random client seed. We combine the server seed and client seed to generate the seed that will be used for the Mersenne Twister shuffle. This will generate a random number between 0-99. Hmmmm nop....not here too, and we reach the end of their fair explanation. So, how it is fair if there is one seed that you can't control and you don't have previous knowledge, a seed that is given by the server at it will, their math: client seed + server seed + scam seed it will give you the right math , the right number, however is a so so magical and so so honest seed that you can only know it after you finish the roll. Bottom of line is , you have the client seed and server hash to verify your roll , but they enter this sweet seed that pops up from no where, so server (they) can manipulate the output roll. In real life comparison is: a guy tells you if you roll a sum of 2 you win ,and he give you 3 dices to roll... if you know what i mean You just can't introduce a seed after the roll, there is no way to verify if it is fair, and probably is not. Rollin is made by some scammer with afraid of don't get rich. Tank you for your time, take care! Be safe from scams. |
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