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1  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Cryptoanarchy round 2 : Fully decentralized free market. on: December 07, 2013, 01:07:17 AM
There needs to be an additional deposit amount paid by the buyer and determined by the seller.  Once the transaction is confirmed by both parties, the buyer gets this amount back.  This ensures that both parties have some "skin in the game" that motivates both to confirm that transaction.  This will eliminate any extraneous impulse of the buyer to simply never confirm the transaction.

Actually, now that I think about it, there should probably be a seller's deposit as well, to ensure he actually sends the product.  The buyer and seller deposits make it a bit more complicated, but they ensure everyone is motivated to conclude or mediate the transaction.

If you think about the three scenarios...
Current proposed:
1. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product. --> Both happy, price goes to seller.
2. Buyer puts up the money, seller does not deliver product. --> Buyer's money is destroyed.  Seller doesn't care.
3. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product, buyer doesn't confirm product. -->  Seller doesn't get paid.  Buyer doesn't care because, to him, he's lost the money either way.

With Buyer deposit:
1. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product. --> Both happy, price goes to seller.  Buyer's deposit returned.
2. Buyer puts up the money, seller does not deliver product. -->  Buyer's money is destroyed.  Seller doesn't care.
3. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product, buyer doesn't confirm product. -->  Seller doesn't get paid.  Buyer remembers deposit, completes/mediates deal.

With Buyer and Seller deposits:
1. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product. --> Both happy, price goes to seller.  Both deposits returned.
2. Buyer puts up the money, seller does not deliver product. --> Buyer's money is destroyed.  Seller remembers that his deposit is on the line, deliver's product.
3. Buyer puts up the money, seller delivers product, buyer doesn't confirm product. -->  Seller doesn't get paid.  Buyer remembers deposit, completes/mediates deal.

Both deposit amounts should be equal, for simplicity and also to ensure that the seller, who is listing the products by both price and deposit amounts, is doing so fairly.

That's what we do already... Buyer and seller deposit coin in the multisig address, and that address won't unlock until both parties agree to sign a transaction that empties it.
2  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Cryptoanarchy round 2 : Fully decentralized free market. on: December 03, 2013, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: 12648430
1. Buyer and Seller generate 3 keypairs, swapping pubkeys, producing 3 2-of-2 addresses
2. Buyer deposits BTCamount to address A
3. Seller deposits BTCamount to address B
Am I right so far? How does the rest go?

You're right so far.

The magic is that the buyer and seller exchange the release transactions partially signed to each other.

qwertyoruiop's last idea is to make two addresses instead of three :

Quote from: qwertyoruiop
One is the payment address, the other is the bond address : let it be a multisig one and make it
so the vendor signs a transaction that sends coins back to him and other coins to buyer.
So, buyer gives up his part of the privkey to the vendor, and the payment is settled, then bonds.
Vendor creates a transaction that send half of the bond to him and the other half to the buyer, signs it, doesn't broadcast it but send it over the buyer. Buyer signs it and sends it.

If anyone tries to cheat the system the other party will simply not allow it. This could also let buyer and vendor settle a % refund in case package goes missing.


First address contains payment, second multisig one contains bonds from both the buyer and seller. When buyer releases the payment the seller gets it, but then the seller wants the bond back. But to do it, buyer must sign the transaction. So, seller creates a transaction that gives the buyer bond back to buyer and his bond back to him. Seller signs it, sends to buyer. If buyer agrees with the settlement of bonds, it signs it : bonds are back.

Also lets say that vendor wants to give a % back to buyer because of an error or something, he can specify it and buyer gets it back as part of the bond.
Instead let's say vendor is dishonest and wants more money : buyer sees the settlement and doesn't agree, coin is lost, vendor just got his bond back from the unlocked payment, so both parties are at a loss, and coins can't be spent until they settle.

The fact that bitcoin is deflationary is what I think will incentivize the eventual resolution of aging disputes, because doing it will end up worth ridiculously more to both parties than leaving the coins locked forever (which is still a loss).
3  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Cryptoanarchy round 2 : Fully decentralized free market. on: December 03, 2013, 02:29:47 AM
[reserved just in case]
4  Bitcoin / Project Development / Cryptoanarchy round 2 : Fully decentralized free market. on: December 03, 2013, 02:28:31 AM
I'm a member of a group that in the past couple days worked on an implementation of a decentralized, free market. This is not drug aimed like most "free" markets involved with bitcoin. This is to markets what bitcoins is to banks, we believe.

Abstract from in-the-works whitepaper: A decentralized open market would allow online transactions to be done directly from one party to another without going through any central point of failure. Digital currencies, such as bitcoin, provide part of the solution, but they do not eliminate problems such as having a central escrow system that could possibly steal user’s money. We propose a fully distributed market, using Nash equilibrium to provide an equivalent of escrow that does not require any 3rd party. Such a system could rely on existing infrastructure, such as a blockchain-based currency to store data in a distributed fashion.

(pre-pre-pre-draft explanation)
https://ghostbin.com/paste/4k7y6

(original irc log of the discussion)
https://ghostbin.com/paste/oweqm

(reddit discussion)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ryf4z/cryptoanarchy_round_two_fully_decentralized_free/
5  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Autonomous corporations based on Bitcoin, Namecoin and Bitmessage on: November 05, 2013, 10:33:20 AM
I have a question on that.

Say I open a company NoServ, Ltd.
Then have that company found p2pox, ltd. This company registers the hosting of an autonomous agent that pays for its continued existence.
Then I dissolve the NoServ company.

Is the agent now an independent, legally recognized entity?

Now the interesting part is with APIs. The agents could reproduce into other hostings. That would almost qualify them as a life form...
6  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Primer for a P2P Distributed Exchange on: May 25, 2013, 03:54:33 PM
We need a distributed third-party.

We need to figure out a way to distribute escrow, and to keep the escrowers honest.

I see that with a swarm of gateways that just check if the fiat exists, and sign that with their own btc. I mean like a dominant assurance contract.

I'm still sorting that out...
7  Local / Biete / Re: USB ASIC miner - with CE & RoHS - check OP on: May 16, 2013, 11:19:22 PM
Finally unblocked my btc for mining Smiley

c0rw1n ; 7 ; 17.7080 ; V8 ; d1e1a5bc9a350fe71252859652eadf56a40f8447d1c34379552ea0d77b9b532b ; 1MUj9YwpzJNckNBRH1bszuGRyaLUrjg4vj
8  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: For Public Consideration: [Marketcoin | MKC] A P2P Trustless Cryptocoin Exchange on: May 16, 2013, 05:29:49 PM
But how does that work? The problem everyone has been bumping their heads against with the p2p concept is that nobody has a good way to know what's going on at the fiat end of any given transaction.

What's so hard about a simple check on that, using services like Sofort in Germany, that can check the fiat-user's fiat account? That can be cross-verified by other nodes who can see that particular account. So you get consensus.

(How to keep those consensus witnesses honest?
By freezing some of their own money to insure the transaction, unblocked when that one is successful.
Why would they participate?
To earn fees.)


Do this : go read up any whitepaper on crypto, trust, security, and when you see "trusted third-party", replace with "distributed proof mechanism".
9  Local / Biete / Re: USB ASIC miner - Interesse Gruppenkauf ? 68/300 on: May 04, 2013, 04:47:41 PM
Ich kaufe 7 Smiley
10  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: The Road To World War 3 on: May 02, 2013, 08:18:40 PM
For roads and other "chunks" of work => Dominant assurance contracts
For basic necessities like running electricity and such => pay-to-policy outputs

For product safety : full reports of how everything is made. Basically a window on each item, that opens to show the whole production process, from extraction/growth to the end-user.
(inb4 "wut, lcd screens errywhere?"  : No, just hyperlinks.)
11  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? on: May 02, 2013, 01:30:38 PM
Quote from: nwbitcoin

Let me ask you a question.

What stops someone from putting a bullet in your head and stealing all your stuff?

The answer is regulations.
This is not right. The answer is The Law.

One depends on an immutable understanding between human beings.

The other is political.


You're both wrong.

What prevents someone from putting a bullet in your head and stealing all your stuff is that you and bulletguy have neighbors, and cameras on every street corner, and two cameras and three localizers in every smartphone, and a blockchain to trace which wallet bought the gun and the bullet, and families, and a whole fucking society of 7 billion humans who don't like to receive bullets in their heads.

So they'd rapidly stop interacting (or worse) with antisocial pieces of shit that shoot people to take their stuff.

Moreover, there are ways to implement Basic Income in cryptocoin. That alone would stop all of crime committed for purely monetary reasons, if it's enough to survive on.
12  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? on: May 02, 2013, 01:15:08 PM
NO regulation.

Not that I care. I'll still do whatever the hell I want, I'll create tumbling services, I'll run mirrors of SilkRoad, I'll fund a p2p exchange -since I can't code myself- that will happily ignore and make all existing KYC/AML laws unenforceable on it, I'll use so-called military-grade crypto in onioned layers, I'll use all the tools that exist to bring down a system that stole two thirds of all that humanity has made and gave it to 1% of humans.

The faster solution is to kill off the 1% and distribute their wealth to everyone else (90% of all wealth divided by seven billion would ERADICATE poverty overnight.)
The HUMANE solution is to simply disconnect their power from under their feet. Back btc with "all of the money" and all govts and banks are DEAD. Implement distributed markets, dominant assurance contracts and pay-to-policy outputs, and BOOM : DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

All we have to discuss is the terms of their surrender. They can't control us because they can't raid us all. They'll try to stop us by fining a handful of poorly-anonymized ones to create the urban legend that someone, somewhere got ruined for doing it. That will work exactly as well as it did to stop filesharing - that is, near-zero effect.

I refuse that we castrate a tool that can bring more equality and liberty to the world to appease the iniquitous slavers who manage it currently.

NO regulation.
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 29, 2013, 10:30:19 PM
About the bootstrapping process, there is an idea here.

It's been thought out specifically to sign the nodes in a distributed exchange, but the pattern can be used for other things.

I like where this thread's idea is going...
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Ripple Giveaway! on: April 26, 2013, 07:17:24 PM
rfgnksNarVxxeAe1hpAMEAMG7wD4bgd1G6
15  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduce yourself :) on: April 16, 2013, 07:48:09 PM
Hello, I'm a bitcoin user.

And I have a lot of ideas to solve certain problems...
16  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Newbie post.. on: April 16, 2013, 07:46:02 PM
Hello all

Just to up postcount too.

Up, up...
17  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Problems with bitcoin-24.com WARNING! UPDATE! on: April 16, 2013, 07:44:20 PM
We expect a withdrawl page today. If not, well lets see what happens.

for BTC or EUR?

For BTC.

The site owner said that it could be for all except EUR if it goes up.

Also, but that's mincing words, he technically said that on the 16th, so it's still on time if if goes up in the next 26h.
18  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What's your Mhash/s? (Pissing contest here) on: April 16, 2013, 01:12:08 PM
Hello, my first post.

Might as well post here to begin...

Desktop (Hackintosh with a 260GTX) : 44 MHs
Laptop (MacBookPro 8,2 with a 6490M) : 16 MH

Both mining with BitMinter beta.
19  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Problems with bitcoin-24.com WARNING! UPDATE! on: April 13, 2013, 01:56:42 AM
they can either do what they sold their service as or they can't and if they can't then they should refund everyone.
That would all be nice and fine, except it depends a lot on what legal classification Bitcoin trading falls under at this time. If it's considered more akin to gambling than banking, it could very well be argued that you aren't entitled to any refund. I don't think we'll really know until we see a few Bitcoin-related lawsuits and get the judicial system's take on Bitcoin. Until then what you're seeing is that people mostly expect Bitcoin not to be recognized or protected by the state as any kind of property or real value.

FWIW The French IRS officials have said that they're not sure if Bitcoin is money, a raw material or a liquid asset or the tax applying to added values.

"A l'heure actuelle, nous ne disposons d'aucune information concernant la nature (monnaie, matière première, valeur mobilière ?) des bitcoins et la fiscalité applicable aux plus-values de cessions réalisées.
Regrettant de ne pouvoir répondre à votre attente,
X.Y., CONTROLEUSE FIP"
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