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Illuminati......well, they're trying to hand him over to the Illuminati. There's been a little confusion. They initially sent him to European Black Nobility only to get kicked over to the Fabian Society. Fabian sent him over to the Jesuits, who refused to even look at him. Let's see....we've visited the Volker Fund, The John Birch Society, Gary North, The Warburg Family, and, finally, Milton Friedman. Milton wasn't there but his wife told us to look for BitcoinSteve and handed me a pyramidal organizational chart that is actually more confusing than the chart we were using previously (see below). So, if anyone can put me in touch with BitcoinSteve that'd be great. The Knights of the Pelican & Eagle acted as though they'd never heard of him and Skull & Bones wouldn't give me any information unless I could confirm that I was the 'keymaster'.   |
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Main point... You guys are missing the point here.
It's a tall order to make someone become an investor by exposing them to large foreign exchange risk (currency fluctuation risk) simply because they want to save money on wire fees and credit card fees, which seems to be what many champion when discussing Bitcoin. There is no point in highlighting the fact that BTC can save any money on fees because it likely can't.
It is simply a tool for investors to make purchases with their investment. It doesn't offer the public a cheaper transactional fee structure. It forces them to become investors by making them take on enormous currency exchange risk (USD/BTC) in order to, under perfect circumstances, save maybe 1% in various transactional fees because:
A) 99.9% of online purchases are through BitPay and their 1% charge
B) Spread is 0.5% - 1% (or 5%+ during high volatility) and must be accounted into sale price through BitPay
C) Foreign exchange risk (USD/BTC fluctuations) are greater than any CC or wire fee
D) Paypal offers free intra-border money transfer, so this does not help people who aren't already invested in BTC
E) Paypal offers low cost international money transfer, ditto.
So champion it for what it is, an investment that allows investors to make purchases with their investment. Only with a great deal of luck will it save anyone else anything on transaction fees.
Because only investors are incentivized to make purchases with BTC, and because there is an incentive for investors to hoard, I see this as something that limits BTC online transactions (and BitPay because 99.9% of merchants will only accept through them).
And If people begin making substantial online purchases with BTC, because these purchases will likely be made by investors who already hold substantial coins, the market will likely trend lower because there will be no off-setting transaction for the BTC to USD (or whichever currency) conversion that happens through BitPay.....again, because almost all merchants accept Bitcoin through BitPay.
Lower fees....debatable. We just moved from from $166+ to $157 in no time. That transaction just became 5%+ more expensive if I purchased @ $166, not including spread and BitPay transaction fees. Actually, while I'm writing this we are now at $153.....so much more expensive than any CC fee. This is the foreign exchange risk I'm talking about. $166 - $153 is almost 8% in a matter of minutes.....plus 1% for BitPay and 1% for the spread (now at 1.5% due to volatility).
So if I had bought a few minutes ago at $166 BTC for a transaction that just occurred, it would have cost 10%.......way higher than any credit card fee.
All of these merchants that are 'accepting Bitcoin' are really accepting USD through BitPay. 99.9% of Merchants will likely never accept Bitcoin directly due to extreme foreign exchange risk. Other than for very niche privacy related applications that are likely international, there is no reason to go USD-BTC-USD by converting USD to BTC to purchase something with bitcoins that will be converted immediately back into USD.....unless one already holds BTC as an investment. And the people that invest are hoarding, for the most part, so I see this as something that will stunt BitPay's growth. And if BitPay does grow tremendously, the market would likely trend down because A) USD-BTC-USD (mainly for gambling and niche privacy related uses) would be an offsetting transaction that should not move the market and B) investors that have been holding bitcoins are very likely the main consumers transacting, so if they began making a huge number of online purchases the market would, if anything, trend lower because 99.9% of merchants must use BitPay and immediately convert to USD. I see Bitcoin's utility in transnational transactions, albeit with high foreign exchange risk. For intra-border (within the US) transactions, the only reason to transact is if you are already an investor. It's a tall order to ask the general public to invest in Bitcoin or for merchants to accept it directly simply to save, at best, 1% on transaction fees. BitPay charges 1% and the BTC spread is usually 0.5% - 1% (or 5%+ during high volatility), and merchants must account for the spread when pricing through BitPay, so at a minimum the fees are still 1.5% - 2% split by the purchaser and the merchant. This doesn't include the extreme foreign exchange risk assumed by the purchaser (or merchant if they chose to accept Bitcoin and not BitPay), which can easily dwarf CC fees in a very short time. And as much as I dislike Paypal, they offer completely free money transfers (non-purchase related, free for sender & receiver) that are certainly as easy if not easier than purchasing Bitcoin. They also offer very low international transfer rates (0.5% - 2%). |
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Lucif bailed the morning of the drop. This is so perfect -- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131065.msg1792764#msg1792764His precision and charting were spot on. He sold at the very top. BrightAnarchist was making excellent calls as well. Funny how people choose to believe mythology while discounting these EW guys. During intense periods of speculation, these are they guys to which you should be paying attention. |
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Does BitPay freeze for 12 hours? Do they accept coins at a rate which may change dramatically when we resume trading?
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To simulate interest....look at all these 0.02 bids. If we drop to these levels and lag, they will support the bid/ask. EDIT: Always at key support levels.....we have a lag, then these bot bids appear. Bid/ask shoot up to the level of these tiny bids even though the stream of sells is much much lower. The slow motion of the lag make these bid/ask jumps much more pronounced, stemming the psychology of the sell-off. This is why we always jump back up so quickly after a minor sell-off (bizarre how bid/ask jump based on tiny 0.02 bids in spite of large 100s or 1000s of coin dumps). It's happened during the past 4 minor sell-offs and yesterday, although the selling was too strong for it to work yesterday. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172540https://i.imgur.com/umRmL7b.pnghttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170483In real-time they would have no effect whatsoever. The reason they work is because of the lag.....in slow motion, they inflate the bid/ask. This affects the way people trade because, during a lag, the bid/ask keep shooting up well above the stream of sells, simulating a bounce. In real-time, the bids would be crushed. But in slow motion it helps stem the psychology of the panic because the inflated bid/ask stick for quite some time, giving everyone ample time to see it.
390.8 0.0200 111.98500
390.8 0.0200 111.94500
390.8 0.0200 111.90500391.9 1.0926 111.90000 391.9 0.0200 111.86500
391.9 0.0200 111.82500
392.0 0.0200 111.78500
392.0 0.0200 111.74500
392.0 0.0200 111.70500
392.0 0.0200 111.66500393.6 1.5498 111.63000 393.6 0.0200 111.62500
393.6 0.0200 111.58500
393.6 0.0200 111.54500
393.6 0.0200 111.50500394.7 1.0500 111.50000 394.7 0.0200 111.46500
394.7 0.0200 111.42500
394.8 0.0200 111.38500
394.8 0.0200 111.34500
394.8 0.0200 111.30500
394.8 0.0200 111.26500395.8 1.0000 111.23000 395.8 0.0200 111.22500440.3 44.4567 111.21000 443.3 3.0000 111.20000 444.3 1.0000 111.19000 444.3 0.0200 111.18500
444.3 0.0200 111.14500445.2 0.8345 111.12000 447.5 2.3512 111.11111 448.6 1.1000 111.11100 683.6 234.9418 111.11000 683.6 0.0200 111.10500690.6 7.0000 111.10000 691.6 1.0000 111.09121 691.6 0.0200 111.06500707.2 15.5658 111.04851 707.2 0.0200 111.02500710.0 2.8000 111.02151 720.0 10.0000 111.02000 1135.4 415.4003 111.00000 1135.4 0.0200 110.98500
1135.4 0.0200 110.94500
1135.4 0.0200 110.90500
1135.5 0.0200 110.86500
1135.5 0.0200 110.82500
1135.5 0.0200 110.78500
1135.5 0.0200 110.74500
1135.5 0.0200 110.705001137.6 2.0200 110.70000 1137.6 0.0200 110.665001137.8 0.2500 110.62501 1137.9 0.0200 110.62500
1137.9 0.0200 110.58500
1137.9 0.0200 110.545001138.9 1.0000 110.51000 1138.9 0.0200 110.505001141.7 2.7548 110.50009 1143.0 1.3165 110.50000 1155.6 12.6087 110.47294 1155.6 0.0200 110.46500
1155.6 0.0200 110.42500
1155.7 0.0200 110.38500
1155.7 0.0200 110.345001205.7 50.0000 110.33000 1205.7 0.0200 110.305001210.7 5.0000 110.30000 1210.7 0.0200 110.265001210.9 0.2268 110.25000 1211.0 0.0200 110.225001215.0 4.0000 110.21110 2394.6 1179.6730 110.20003 3252.7 858.0232 110.20002 4252.7 1000.0000 110.20000 4252.7 0.0200 110.185004253.5 0.8366 110.15000 4253.5 0.0200 110.145004263.5 10.0000 110.13272 4263.6 0.0200 110.105004363.6 100.0000 110.10000 4373.1 9.5367 110.09000 4373.1 0.0200 110.065004374.1 1.0000 110.06325 4374.2 0.1371 110.03177 4374.3 0.0200 110.025004379.3 5.0000 110.02000 4382.1 2.8000 110.01251 5425.8 1043.7740 110.01000 5425.9 0.1000 110.00230 5525.9 100.0000 110.00100 7092.4 1566.5042 110.00000 7092.5 0.0200 109.98500
7092.5 0.0200 109.94500
7092.5 0.0200 109.905007093.8 1.2500 109.89998 7128.8 35.0000 109.87600 7128.8 0.0200 109.86500
7128.8 0.0200 109.825007165.2 36.4246 109.81600 7165.2 0.0200 109.78500
7165.3 0.0200 109.74500
7165.3 0.0200 109.70500
7165.3 0.0200 109.66500
7165.3 0.0200 109.62500
7165.3 0.0200 109.58500
7165.4 0.0200 109.54500
7165.4 0.0200 109.505007166.4 1.0500 109.50000 7166.5 0.0200 109.46500
7166.5 0.0200 109.42500
7166.5 0.0200 109.38500
7166.5 0.0200 109.34500
7166.5 0.0200 109.30500
7166.6 0.0200 109.26500
7166.6 0.0200 109.22500
7166.6 0.0200 109.18500
7166.6 0.0200 109.145007166.9 0.3000 109.14000 7168.9 1.9500 109.11900 7168.9 0.0200 109.105007171.1 2.2100 109.09440 7171.1 0.0200 109.065007171.1 0.0100 109.02884 7171.1 0.0200 109.025007276.6 105.4127 109.00000 7280.6 4.0300 108.99000 7280.9 0.3080 108.81766 7297.3 16.4454 108.56147 7445.6 148.2702 108.51805 7450.5 4.8930 108.51200 7451.6 1.0500 108.50000 7451.6 0.0200 108.46500
7451.6 0.0200 108.42500
7451.6 0.0200 108.38500
7451.6 0.0200 108.34500
7451.7 0.0200 108.305007461.7 10.0000 108.29508 7462.7 1.0000 108.28524 7462.7 0.0200 108.265007469.1 6.4665 108.25100 7469.2 0.0200 108.225007469.2 0.0100 108.20000 7469.2 0.0200 108.18500
7469.2 0.0200 108.14500 |
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This was headed down well before any lag.....Gox simply cannot handle sell-offs. It jams up their system. The lag helps stem the sell-off, in fact; it doesn't make it worse. It acts as a circuit breaker. The lag slows the sell-off and then gives them something to blame the correction on.
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The usual small systematic bot fills (0.02 BTC) much higher than previous trades to keep the bid/ask up and stem the panic sell-off.
17:39:58 200.00000 2.0000
17:39:57 200.00000 1.7034
17:39:55 200.00000 0.9400
17:39:50 200.00000 0.1798
17:39:32 207.10440 0.0100
17:39:30 200.00000 0.2822
17:39:29 207.10440 0.0100
17:39:28 200.00000 155.5402
17:39:28 205.00000 5.0000
17:39:21 200.00000 5.2321
17:39:10 200.00000 9.9400
17:39:09 200.00000 778.5880
17:39:07 210.00000 0.0200
17:39:07 210.00000 0.0200
17:39:07 210.00000 0.0200
17:39:06 210.00000 0.0200
17:39:01 210.00000 0.0200
17:39:00 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:56 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:56 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:54 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:53 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:51 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:46 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:45 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:44 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:42 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:41 200.00000 35.0000
17:38:39 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:38 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:38 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:34 210.00000 0.0200
17:38:30 200.00000 12.0000
17:38:27 200.00000 74.8098
17:38:26 200.10000 0.0100
17:38:19 201.10000 0.0100
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EDIT - Better if you start from the bottom.
15:23:10 180.53000 0.5142
15:23:09 180.53001 0.2820
15:23:09 180.58459 0.2037
15:23:08 190.00000 0.2042
15:23:08 189.99000 2.1958
15:23:00 180.58459 10.0000
15:22:49 180.58459 0.9526
15:22:48 180.58459 7.8437
15:22:48 180.58459 0.2573
15:22:48 180.58460 0.3770
15:22:48 180.72608 0.4313
15:22:48 180.72942 1.0287
15:22:46 180.73062 0.0621
15:22:43 180.73062 0.2325
15:22:43 186.00000 0.1000
15:22:38 189.99000 0.1015
15:22:37 180.73062 0.2054
15:22:36 180.77700 17.1482
15:22:36 180.91236 1.1236
15:22:33 181.00000 1.0000
15:22:33 181.00000 0.1000
15:22:32 181.00000 0.0250
15:22:32 181.00000 0.1000
15:22:32 181.00000 1.0000
15:22:27 181.00000 4.9445
15:22:27 187.00000 0.1000
15:22:23 181.00000 15.0555
15:22:23 181.00001 0.5021
15:22:22 181.03982 0.4040
15:22:22 181.04150 1.0000
15:22:22 181.07079 3.0029
15:22:22 181.09000 10.0000
15:22:21 181.10000 2.0000
15:22:21 181.10000 1.1044
15:22:21 181.11283 0.0440
15:22:21 181.20000 3.5813
15:22:21 185.00000 1.0000
15:22:21 185.10500 25.0000
15:22:20 185.12093 0.2058
15:22:10 185.12093 0.0955
15:22:10 185.76282 0.3014
15:22:10 186.40470 0.3014
15:22:10 187.04658 0.3014
15:22:10 187.68847 0.3014
15:22:10 188.00000 0.1000
15:22:10 188.33035 0.3014
15:22:10 188.97223 0.3014
15:22:10 189.00000 0.1000
15:22:09 189.61411 0.3014
15:21:51 189.99000 0.3014
15:21:51 189.99000 0.3014
15:21:39 181.20000 1.4800
15:21:39 181.23000 0.5518
15:21:39 181.24996 0.0200
15:21:38 181.33823 0.4313
15:21:37 181.44526 1.0000
15:21:37 181.50000 19.3162
15:21:32 181.50000 0.0100
15:21:29 181.53662 1.0000
15:21:29 181.53662 0.0881
15:21:29 181.57799 5.0000
15:21:28 181.60001 0.5764
15:21:28 181.62000 0.5200
15:21:26 181.76398 0.4040
15:21:26 181.81001 0.7658
15:21:26 181.90000 12.0000
15:21:25 181.96497 0.5588
15:21:23 181.96589 0.2855
15:21:15 181.98194 0.5495
15:21:12 181.99002 0.0549
15:21:12 182.00000 5.3208
15:21:05 185.42845 0.4040
15:21:04 186.06000 10.0000
15:20:59 186.17017 0.4040
15:20:58 188.70000 1.2189
15:20:57 189.21271 0.4000
15:20:30 189.99000 0.1000
15:20:30 189.99000 1.0000
15:20:26 182.00000 2.7701
15:20:23 182.00000 0.0495
15:20:22 182.00000 0.5495
15:20:22 182.00000 2.0000
15:20:22 182.00000 0.1000
15:20:22 182.00000 49.8944
15:20:22 182.17000 2.5328
15:20:22 186.70000 3.0180
15:20:22 186.76034 0.5118
15:20:22 187.02501 1.7938
15:20:22 188.87550 0.4900
15:20:22 189.21271 0.4000
15:20:22 189.21271 0.4000
15:20:21 189.21281 0.4000
15:19:58 182.00000 51.6248
15:19:56 187.00000 1.2752
15:19:55 191.20001 1.1000
15:19:54 182.00000 11.4204
15:19:54 182.00000 0.1700
15:19:54 182.00000 0.1099
15:19:54 182.00000 5.0000
15:19:53 182.00000 25.0000
15:19:53 182.00000 0.0100
15:19:52 182.00001 0.6554
15:19:51 182.00110 0.2116
15:19:46 182.01000 3.0000
15:19:46 182.04150 1.0000
15:19:46 182.10000 0.2321
15:19:44 182.17000 0.0439
15:19:44 184.89273 0.5409
15:19:44 185.60000 0.4726
15:19:43 187.49616 0.5333
15:19:43 190.00000 3.0000
15:19:38 191.20001 1.6349
15:19:35 182.10000 49.7679
15:19:34 182.10001 0.8723
15:19:34 182.11101 162.2243
15:19:34 182.13000 9.2182
15:19:34 182.15011 0.4907
15:19:34 182.16000 8.0000
15:19:33 182.18889 0.5000
15:19:32 182.18889 0.5000
15:19:32 182.20000 0.5000
15:19:31 182.20000 2.4956
15:19:31 182.20001 0.1386
15:19:31 182.22000 2.7439
15:19:31 182.22000 2.7439
15:19:30 182.23400 6.0000
15:19:30 182.26000 21.9467
15:19:30 182.33000 2.0000
15:19:30 182.49104 0.4040
15:19:30 182.50000 0.0200
15:19:30 182.52335 0.6102
15:19:30 182.58000 10.0272
15:19:30 182.59161 0.5588
15:19:29 182.59239 1.0000
15:19:29 182.61569 0.0440
15:19:29 182.68430 1.0000
15:19:29 182.68430 1.3158
15:19:29 182.70001 1.6429
15:19:29 182.74836 0.0107
15:19:29 182.74836 0.3761
15:19:28 182.74836 0.3761
15:19:28 182.78771 0.7167
15:19:28 182.80001 0.5151
15:19:28 182.80001 0.3859
15:19:28 182.84345 0.0190
15:19:28 182.93252 1.0000
15:19:28 182.94509 1.1111
15:19:28 182.94509 0.5000
15:19:28 182.94509 0.5000
15:19:28 183.00000 34.8000
15:19:27 183.00000 40.0000
15:19:26 183.00000 0.0250
15:19:25 183.00000 0.1000
15:19:25 183.00000 0.0000
15:19:25 183.00002 0.6102
15:19:25 183.00110 0.1813
15:19:25 183.01000 1.0000
15:19:25 183.04150 1.0000
15:19:25 183.08124 0.5000
15:19:24 183.09611 10.0000
15:19:24 183.09768 0.2579
15:19:24 183.11000 1.3008
15:19:24 183.21000 20.0000
15:19:24 183.21825 0.5588
15:19:24 183.22100 0.4040
15:19:24 183.35914 1.0000
15:19:24 183.44528 1.0000
15:19:22 183.45690 0.7873
15:19:22 183.68590 1.0000
15:19:21 183.78000 20.0000
15:19:21 183.80175 0.5441
15:19:21 183.84865 0.4630
15:19:21 183.94810 0.1511
15:19:21 183.95388 0.4040
15:19:21 183.96145 0.0050
15:19:21 183.96145 4.5199
15:19:21 183.99252 0.0430
15:19:21 184.00000 10.0000
15:19:21 184.00000 0.1000
15:19:21 184.00000 2.0000
15:19:21 184.00000 0.0057
15:19:21 184.00000 0.0250
15:19:21 184.00000 0.1000
15:19:21 184.00000 0.2228
15:19:20 184.00001 0.9247
15:19:20 184.04150 1.0000
15:19:20 184.10000 2.0000
15:19:19 184.11000 1.3579
15:19:19 184.16000 4.0000
15:19:19 184.25001 0.5202
15:19:19 184.26015 0.2002
15:19:19 184.26015 0.1989
15:19:18 184.26016 0.5000
15:19:18 184.26016 0.5000
15:19:17 184.40000 0.0049
15:19:17 184.40001 0.6929
15:19:17 184.41977 6.1742
15:19:17 184.45001 0.3884
15:19:16 184.46456 1.3000
15:19:16 184.47895 0.4630
15:19:16 184.50000 0.0048
15:19:16 184.56223 44.9974
15:19:14 184.68969 0.4040
15:19:13 184.83454 1.4377
15:19:13 184.83784 0.5000
15:19:11 184.89000 0.1020
15:19:08 184.92468 0.5000
15:19:08 184.94031 0.5000
15:19:08 184.94220 3.6000
15:19:08 184.94220 2.0000
15:19:08 185.00000 63.0000
15:19:08 185.00000 0.5445
15:19:07 185.00000 15.0000
15:19:07 185.00000 10.0000
15:19:06 185.00000 5.0000
15:19:05 185.00000 18.0439
15:19:04 185.00000 5.4054
15:19:03 185.00000 0.1342
15:19:03 185.00000 23.2859
15:19:03 185.00000 1.0000
15:19:03 185.00000 0.1000
15:19:03 185.00000 6.0000
15:19:03 185.00000 0.0378
15:19:02 185.00000 2.7027
15:19:02 185.00000 1.0000
15:19:01 185.00000 1.1000
15:19:00 185.00000 0.3000
15:19:00 185.00000 0.0043
15:19:00 185.00000 1.0000
15:19:00 185.00000 1.0000
15:19:00 185.00000 6.3220
15:19:00 185.00000 0.0250
15:19:00 185.00000 0.1000
15:18:58 185.00000 0.0200
15:18:58 185.00000 40.0000
15:18:55 185.00000 0.9100
15:18:55 185.00000 10.0000
15:18:55 185.00449 0.3500
15:18:55 185.01000 2.0000
15:18:51 185.01000 1.0000
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Does anyone else find it interesting that these large lags only happen on the way down?? AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) recently lags never occur on higher volume during upward momentum. The market looked as though it was about to drop a few seconds ago and PRESTO, the lag magically appears. Lately, why does the lag always appear after the price starts dropping (not before) and never when the price is rising on even higher volume??
I'm probably alone here, but I'm not convinced by the Mt. Gox DDoS attack excuse that supposedly drove down prices yesterday. Sure, there may have been a DDoS attack. But I've watched the last two Gox malfunctions fairly closely and the only things I saw, in both cases, were the beginnings of natural, orderly sell-offs (although the previous instance on March 28th was more dramatic) followed by a trading lag (DDoS attack?) and cancellations that actually stemmed the sell-off.
If these 'DDoS attacks' were meant to drive down the price substantially, clearly it's not working. It looks more like planned lags that act as trading curbs. Trading curbs are meant to halt sell-offs, giving everyone time to regain a clearer head and trade with less emotion. These 'DDoS attacks' have become the perfect excuse on which to blame any natural sell-off and subsequent trade curbing mechanism, IMO. The problem is that these last two lags occurred only after the sell-offs began, not before.
Pair this with the bizarre pricing action on Mt Gox, where minuscule sub-coin buys above the ask move the bid/ask up several dollars and counteract 100's of coins being dumped......no, I think Mt Gox is doing everyone a favor in doing everything it can to keep the price up. I have no evidence (only empirical); this is unfounded conjecture.....
Of course, there is an argument that a mysterious, nefarious group of Bitcoin bandits who hold enough coins to create simulated sell-offs are then DDoSing the system in an effort to buy cheaper coins (at risk of destroying the value of the coins they hold). And Gox is so competent that they have caught and resolved the situation before they became larger problems in both instances. But, I simply did not see anything remotely resembling this yesterday. On March 28th? Perhaps.
Gox has a vested interested in keeping this propped at the expense of angering current customers.....because they have many new customers with which to replace you all. Either they have an ridiculously inept system or they are extremely competent at quelling panic selling. I'm not sure if they are idiots or geniuses.....
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