[unnecessarily]

Hello,

I am a tech guy, without too much knowledge about economy, but a certain amount of interest in it. This is an economical question, so please don't make it unnecessarily political. I understand that these things relate, so I wanna emphasize the unnecessarily in this statement.

Lately I kinda miss the discussion about the Euro crisis. So I wanted to see what's up with exchange rates and stuff. I am still not sure, but I saw something else that made me wonder. In 2001 when the Euro came to be as actually used money (even though it was virtually around since 1999) the exchange rate was from 1 EUR ~ 0.85 USD to ~ 0.95 USD in it's early days. I remember how back then everyone was like "Oh my god, will the EUR have a chance to replace the USD with all these economies working together now?"

That attitude of course changed since then. Before the (world's) financial crisis I remember that there was something strange. Both China and the US tried to artificially devaluate their currencies to increase exports. The Euro had a trouble, because it was too stable and most European countries depend heavily on exports (more than the US, less than China). Everyone was like "It's great, we can buy cheap stuff from the US, but oh my god, we focused too hard on a strong Euro, maybe we should reduce those measures".

Things changed again. Meanwhile everyone talks about how weak the Euro is. Everyone is like "Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, ... The Euro isn't going to be worth anything soon". And now what I don't get about it: The current exchange rate is 1 EUR = 1.337 USD (lol nice value, just looked at the European Central Bank's website, giving out the currency).  That's a huge increase.

Now I understand that the US economy, like most economies really suffer these days. However, nobody is like "Oh my god, the USD won't exist anymore soon or they will split, ... PANIC", like in Europe. Okay, that changed in Europe too, but the current exchange rate isn't any different from what it was over the last few years. In fact it's even lower, so people should be panicking more.

Or is it actually the other way round? Should Europe actually be heading towards a lower exchange rate?
)
Sorry, I am sure these questions seem really dumb, but like I said. I am just a tech guy and I've got to start somewhere. I guess I should read books or so about it, but I really have a long list already.

What is your opinion?

tl;dr: If money is never yours, how can it be stolen?

A few thoughts on money, taxes and how you are not stolen.

Many libertarians call taxes a way of stealing money (or wealth) from people who have it.

I don't think that can be considered true, because money is never yours in first place. So if you invest all your work and effort into getting something that never is yours anyway then complaining about it being taken away seems kinda foolish, doesn't it?

Look at your dollar bill. It says it isn't your property. So how can it be stolen.

Another thing is that stuff that you own and is your property is usually something you can do with whatever you want. However, you aren't allowed to do so. You aren't even allowed to destroy it, for example burn it (hey, it's winter! Brrr..). It's even worse: Doing so is considered a sign of mental illness.

Maybe that's also a question to lawyers. If something I have is basically not mine, or even worse debt, then how can it be considered a crime?

The whole thing also sounds kinda authoritarian. I mean the thing everyone cares about and the thing that wealth is measured in can never be yours.

All of this doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe someone here can explain how all of this is wrong and hey, maybe someone can even compare it to Bitcoin. Isn't it way more fun? Also does that mean that you [as a libertarian] should be against the kind of money we have right now in first place? Is that a reason why you all are here?

[EDIT:]

Hey,

I didn't study economics, but I always was interested. With all the discussions about how fair things are these days I wonder whether a system where every single person would receive 1000 USD (like direct from the printing press) could improve things. I am not talking about minimum wage or whatever.

What I think (maybe I am completely wrong) could be great about this is that nobody can complain that someone else receives more, because everyone receive the same. Also it wouldn't have to come from other people's taxes, but from kinda devaluing the money making stuff more expensive and therefor causes working people, from the cleaning lady to the manager receiving more money. What I think would be nice too is that the 1000 USD could be exactly what you need to get the most basic things to survive. It will not be that much, because that's what everyone receives anyway. Every person that works will get additional money for luxury good or better survival stuff (better food, etc.).

I think it would be compatible with all kinds of ideology, because it's not raising taxes having anyone taking something away from working people (who would most likely earn more, because of inflation), but also not like we don't care about poor people.

What do you think?


EDIT: Looks like some people didn't read it. So a tldr: I am not talking about some weird for of socialism, where everyone just gets money or something like that, but where you print an additional 1000 USD for every citizen, no matter whether he is bill gates or living on the street. This isn't financed through taxes and doesn't change the social system, property or whatever. Money is being devalued, but not in a different way from the way it is printed now, just in bigger amounts.

Hey!

No, don't worry. I will not try to convince you to Communism or whatever. I just had to smirk when I opened the Wikipedia Article of Commodity Fetishism and not expecting this at all the very first picture was this:



It just hits this so well:

As against this, the commodity-form, and the value-relation of the products of labour within which it appears, have absolutely no connection with the physical nature of the commodity and the material relations arising out of this. - Karl Marx

Btw., no idea how I managed to end up there starting out at Open Society.

PS: I'd love to see exactly a shop like this with a big, giant Bitcoin logo on it. Make it happen!

So a question that made me wonder for a while now is how (according to Wikipedia) the US can have more than twice as much debt (per citizen) compared to the EU and the EU and the Euro, which still is stronger than when it was when it started out compared to the USD is said to have trouble and people don't trust it.

Well, being a Bitcoin fan and relatively independent of the Euro, as well as being an Anarchist/Social Libertarian and so don't really care about countries. Also don't know in which one I'll stay in the long run, so please don't answer with EU/US is better. I am more interested into how that from an economical perspective makes sense and I don't know a better forum to ask.

Oh, actually the reason I ask is that I don't really get how most European countries can have so much welfare compared to the US. I know there is taxes and stuff, but still when I compare the US friends and the EU friends incomes (don't know it from everyone, but quite a few) then it seems to be about even. Are there statistics? What they are able to afford appears to be about the same.

Does anyone sell Cafe Libertad for Bitcoins and ships to Europe?

[tl;dr: Send me an PM mentioning this thread. You'll get a Bitcoin address and as it receives at least 0.50 Bitcoins you'll get a Humble Bundle. All money that foes to such an address will go to Humble Bundle/EFF.]

This offer is temporarily suspended!

tl;dr: Send me an PM mentioning this thread. You'll get a Bitcoin address and as it receives at least 0.50 Bitcoins you'll get a Humble Bundle. All money that foes to such an address will go to Humble Bundle/EFF.

So, everyone loves games and everyone loves EFF. I do so too!

And I have an offer. If you send a PM, I'll send you a Bitcoin address and if that address receives at least 0.50 Bitcoins I'll send you the gift code for a Humble Bundle that paid more than the average and therefor included all games. I didn't prebuy them (if anyone has an idea on how to prove it (I'm using Paypal), then tell me). This means I'll add whatever is needed to get over that current price at the time I am buying. This will be true at least until the bundle reaches 10$ (yeah, sorry, it's not much, but I am doing this because I want to support EFF, Bitcoin and Humble Bundle).

Since this is to support EFF my default will me to give everything to EFF, but if you don't like that idea, tell me what you want and it will be like that.

So again, what do you get?

• All games of the Humble Bundle, for less than the average
• But still donate more than the average, just for using Bitcoins
• No need for Paypal, no fee
• Sell your Bitcoins at more than what you'd get everywhere else
• Support EFF

Do you like this or want to spend more? If you want to say thank you send a donation to the address below, if you spend more on the bundle, I promise that all profit made from this go to Humble Bundle or EFF.

If you have any ideas on how to make this more transparent without adding costs, I am open for it. I'd also make your payment address public here or somewhere else, if you want me to, so everyone can see how much you donate and if there is a way to show you donations/paypal transactions/... I'll show you.

I have the right to end this offer at any given time, but I'll still donate everything to Humble Bundle or EFF. Sorry folks, but I have to take precautions, in case this gets too much or whatever. You'll get your HB or your Bitcoins back. I guarantee. Even if my wallet for that gets hacked. I have a very secure offline one and would also buy the money, but it really shouldn't happen, since when you get your address I'll ASAP buy your bundle and send you the link.

If you have any other suggestions, please tell me (even if it means I have to pay a bit more). I'm really eager to get as much money for Humble Bundle and EFF as possible. They are doing an awesome job. Also, of course you could just send me Bitcoins that go to EFF or the Humble Bundle, but that's just an option and I am sure there are people that you'd trust more.

PS: Yes, Paypal is bad. I just thought I'd use up my money on the account in nice ways, before I close it.

Bundles bought up to now: 8

Donation address: 1BpiYUZXnhpnw72Z3oCTnXFJhhzemEVJ7N (Do NOT donate here, if you want a Bundle!)
Everything that goes to this address will run into this offer, which means it will ultimately be donated Humble Bundle and/or especially EFF, which supports YOUR privacy. I am also willing to donate to other projects, if I can do so via Paypal. So if you want to use your Bitcoins on something good, I am willing to help you and willing to show a proof if I can/you tell me how.

Humble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/

EFF: https://www.eff.org/

Okay, now for a moment please forget about what you think about all the -isms and look at the facts.

After the revolution in Span in 1936, there for a short time has been what most people call collectivist anarchism. Which basically is a mix of various isms, with none of them being too extreme and basically "just let people make". The result of this has been a society that made everything from the hair cutter to weapon construction had enormous increases in efficiency. Women were for the first time able to have abortions, everyone was happy, with lots of rights, free love and stuff.

All of this is just what the average leftist, liberal, communist, libertarian, anarchist wants and everyone else dreams of, even when they might call it an unreachable utopia.

Basically it has been killed by people who at least say they follow some ism. Since I'd consider them extremist I really wouldn't call them communist or whatever. There always are the people who actually want to live have and something and others that either abuse it or just cry for revolution and never are happy with anything.

So, if we have something that seems at least close to an utopia (nothing is absolutely perfect), has some elements from all kinds of utopias and you can learn in history that it did already work, even if it certainly wasn't the best time, then why not give it a try and work from there?

To me it sounds like people should just stop arguing about the differences, about how things should be exactly and just do it. I mean it's the same state that you have right after every revolution and everyone is fine, because there are no classes and people just work together. See what happened in North Africa while and shortly after the revolution. One just needs to prevent anyone from gaining grip again. The best thing would be to look at history, tons of examples and just see it is like that.

Have a look at these sources. It just sounds awesome:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#1936_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution

Also it is kinda what's going on here anyway. People, being socialists, anarchist, libertarians, communists or whatever are just happy with Bitcoin, working together, not thinking too much about what ideology it is. It also shows that it's just about people not forcing each other. Be it your boss, Stalin or the US president, be it this one or any of the past ones.

Bitcoin is about wealth and money. One needs to be able to confirm that one doesn't receive a version of Bitcoin that has been maliciously modified. It would therefor be a good idea to sign the source code as well as the binary packages. This way one just needs to be sure that one gets the right public key once.

With such a key it would also be possible to get the binaries/source from somewhere else. So if the official website is being censored, but a user obtained or has access to the public key one could get it from Tor, I2P, Freenet, from a random other website and still be sure to have an official release.

Just have a developer or trusted person with a completely disconnected computer generate a keys on their. Move the public key to key servers (most of them sync anyways) and have him put together the official release (maybe again making sure that the code is the right one) there and create the signatures. Then just move it all out onto the interwebs and there you are. Really secure releases.

To make it really really secure one could of course have multiple parties doing the same thing. This, via a web of trust and public key signing would even allow it to make sure that the public key can be changed over time.

To begin with: I love Bitcoin. I think it is desperately needed.

However, I think in a perfect world, one humanity may or may not be able to create one wouldn't need it. It would become dormant. I if we can reach it, we are at least extremely far from it and would consider Bitcoin at least an important tool for now.

Do you agree?

I spent some time thinking about Libertarians, because I find it interesting in many ways. I have some criticism that I don't write to tell everyone how bad Libertarians are, but because I am curious about the answers, where I am wrong and where I am right.


So for actual freedom wouldn't it make sense to take care that everyone can have a life of a certain standard - get food, a place to live, healthcare, education for free (not something luxurious, just something)?
Wouldn't a minimal state be extremely bad for people that have "bad luck" (disabilities since birth)?
Wouldn't it cause companies to create/be dictatorships (look up on Foxconn, they have more employees than some states have citizens and completely control their lives)?
Wouldn't such a society destroy the free market, because of stuff like monopolies?
Wouldn't we have all the benefits of a Libertarian society already if people would actually care about stuff like what products they buy and why would people care more in a libertarian society?

From Wikipedia:

Vermin Love Supreme (born June 1961) is an American performance artist, anarchist and activist who is known for running as a satirical candidate in various local, state, and national elections in the United States. Supreme is known for wearing a boot as a hat and carrying a large toothbrush. He claims that if elected President of the United States, he will pass a law requiring people to brush their teeth. He also campaigned in 2012 on a platform of zombie apocalypse awareness and time travel research, and he promises a free pony for every American.

An interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFXXAuDK1Ao

I think this guy is pretty much the last chance for the US, before China takes over.

First of all I am not saying you should switch to anything. I am just curious what other think about it. Maybe it's also interesting for people who want to create another FooCoin currency.

I have been following the SHA3 challenge since it started and always liked CubeHash, because it's simplicity. It's heavily optimized for both security and simplicity. However, it didn't receive too much love, because it was slow. Since this isn't really a huge problem for Bitcoin or similar currencies I think it would make an awesome algorithm. Security isn't a problem and it's simplicity makes it easy to create a good implementation. This would probably make it harder for a very experienced person (or any kind of organization with enough money, power and know-how) to create a custom implementation that outperforms everyone else.

http://cubehash.cr.yp.to/

Since Bitcoin will bring the dawn of a new world making anything better I think we should start measuring the time in blocks. It would make everything a lot funnier and also more scientifically correct -everything is relative, time is relative, everything is based on quantums, so everything is random.

So how many blocks is it until Christmas?

Oh and the New Year's countdown would be much more exciting!

Hmm, maybe I should build an Arduino based block clock.

I'll make it short and just throw in a link.

It something I suggested when everyone was talking about the bursting bubble: What comes afterwords? Well, since the price seems to settle and we aren't in an endless fall anymore I wonder when the "Slope of Enlightenment" sets in and how long it will take until we reach the "Plateau of productivity".

My guess (and it's really just a guess of someone without any background on economics) is that this will take a few more years. I think the market will continue to grow, as it always did (regardless of prices or users jumping in and out) and this will cause hoarders to buy stuff. I consider myself to be a hoarder and there are more and more interesting products coming along and I buy more often, especially now when it is Christmas time. At least that's true for me as an early adopter, someone who is using Bitcoin because he likes the concept, ease of use, decentralization - well a piece of freedom. I think it's also nice for merchants, who gain customers just because of offering stuff for BTCs. At least I am such a customer, but I guess that's a story for another forum.

Anyways, what are your thought son this?

Damn, stop with those stupid graph theories. They show what happened, the past and not the future. Start thinking, if prices could be predicted everyone would be getting rich with gold, stocks, whatever.

Price will go up when demand is higher then the supply at a given rate and down when it isn't. What happened before doesn't really matter. The only thing it may have is some psychological effect, but if it would be about that every stock and every currency out there would have died at some point.

Compare it with the upward trend. According to a chart from the beginning of the year it would have gone up forever. And now you predict the price will go down forever?

Well if you really believe so, go on, but if you have some brain I urge you to use it. There are more than enough idiots out there. I hope there are still some sane users.



Seriously, the thing that hits me most is not when the price for Bitcoin is going down, but when I see how the community gets overrun by mindless morons who just want to make bucks to buy video games or something like that.

Yeah, I know. That comes with a growing economy and Bitcoin being famous, but think back. Wasn't it awesome when everything was still small, friendly and cosy?

What we see right now doesn't mean that Bitcoin will die. If you think Bitcoin - when we speak about making money (not using it!) - is a bursting bubble I can say it looks so. You may be right. However, that doesn't mean Bitcoin dies. Do you folks remember the Dot-com boom? That bursting bubble?

What happened can be read on Wikipedia, but what is more important is that it didn't kill the IT industry. It just corrected thing and stabilized their values and the market got rid of bad companies. This is just what Bitcoin needs.

First of all: I do not know how a psychotherapy works, so I don't know whether this would actually make sense.

However, a friend recently talked to me about convincing someone to start a psychotherapy. It was about a person, that appears to have depressions, being suicidal and stuff. She told me that he pretty much convinced him to do so, but now he is afraid of his image, losing his job and things like that.

Wouldn't it make sense to offer these kinds of therapies online, in a non-trackable way? Who knows, maybe this would even solve the problem with pedophiles.

I thought about a chat. One could use Tor. One could also use VOIP or even video, if it's not about absolute anonymity. No idea, how many people would be interested in this, but from what I see there are lots of depressed people with the crisis and stuff.

Would this work?

I pay one BTC for a Frozen Synapse Bundle gift code that includes the Frozen Byte Bundle as well. This currently costs $4.63, which is less then the current TradeHill and MtGox prices for a Bitcoin, so you make profit. Besides that you can choose how the money is divided and for example give it all to EFF.

http://www.humblebundle.com/