Maybe we can put this to rest, we will never agree on the profitability of cex.io.
I will not rest until assholes like you are banished from the realm. Well you will be waiting a very long time.... In the mean time I will be happy knowing that I AM making a profit, and that you are increasingly annoyed by it. You have an over-simplistic mathematical model of a complex domain, but I'm certain a more correct model would be far to complex for your limited intellect to handle. The only 'asshole' here as far as I am concerned is the one who is belittling the achievements of another. As I said before, I do not get paid by cex.io or anyone else. Believe it of nor I have no connection with anybody or business. I am just a home miner/trader/user of bitcoin and happy to spread the word of a company that I believe in. My sig doesn't meet your approval? Oh no, what a shame. |
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Why is it that some people, who do not use cex.io, constantly state as a fact that nobody can make any profit there despite some people who actually use the service claiming that they do indeed make a profit. 1) Because they can do math. 2) Because they can distinguish between "mining" and "day trading" (neither of which are actually truly happening at cex.io, but that's mostly semantics). 3) Because the overall price trend of GHs is steadily downward. In more detail: 1) It is not possible to profit via mining alone at cex.io with the current price of GHs there. This isn't up for debate. You can scream about it all you want, but until difficulty slows down, you just look like a fucking moron that can't do math. 2) It is possible to make a profit at cex.io via day trading, though only because there is a steady supply of morons lined up waiting to buy your GHs from you at a price that will never, ever ROI. This is the "greater fool" theory. Some of these people will, in turn, make a profit of their own. Many more of these people will actually lose (because of point 3), and this too is not up for debate. Math is math, and isn't subject to your opinion. 3) As Bitcoin difficulty increases, each GHs returns less BTC back to the holder. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before the never-ending stream of morons gets it through their greed-addled skulls, but this is also not up for debate. In a free market, this steadily erodes the value -- that is, what some fool is willing to pay for it -- until the value basically ceases to be meaningful. At cex.io, such free-market conditions may or may not exist. This is up for some debate, and I won't pick a side in that discussion. But as an investor, you have to ask yourself which model you prefer -- (a) a free market where the price is steadily going down while you're holding it, or (b) a manipulated market where the share value is essentially arbitrary. Note that there isn't an option C, no matter how badly you want there to be. That's as clear as I can make it. Individuals may profit, but the math says that such profits are the exception rather than the rule. And no, that's not up for debate either. 1) The price of GH/s is irrelevant. The cost of ownership is purchase price - sale price. If you are even slightly intelligent about it you can keep the TCO low. If you held the shares till the end of time, you would be out of pocket. This is an exchange and not hardware ownership. 2) Again, you don't seem to understand how the world works. You do not need to make ROI on your purchase price. You buy, mine, sell and if you do it right you make a profit. There may well be morons there that have no real concept of maths, but there are also large scale traders who would leave in an instance if they were always making a loss. 3)You are correct, as difficult increases revenue drops, at least you got something correct. However, this has happened before and the same morons made the same arguments; that nobody could make a profit. They were wrong then, and no doubt will be again. Only time will tell, but if something does not change in the next few months, I predict many farms going offline due to lack of profit. Your alternative seems to be hold on to BTC and hope that some idiot gives you more fiat for it than you originally paid, yet you complain about the same thing happening in a GH/s exchange. Fortunately you have no need to reply, as you have already expressed you lack of interest in any sensible debate. Maybe we can put this to rest, we will never agree on the profitability of cex.io. |
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Here's another random point: who are you going to believe? The guys who stand to profit by deceiving other people (note the sleazy referral links in various sigs in this thread) or the people who have nothing to gain and are expressly stating that their sigs are free of paid influence?
(Yeah, I know -- using logic on mental midgets is about as effective as lipstick on a pig).
I am not deceiving anybody, and would not. It is you who is deceiving people with your rubbish about how it is mathematically impossible to make a profit. You are very wrong. I am not good at trading, but I do know how to look after my investment. From mining alone you would make a loss, especially in the current climate, but who would leave their investment alone when the value is plummeting? I put the referral link in my sig because I like and believe in the company, hopefully someone else would be able to benefit as I have done. It seems like you are yet another idiot who regurgitates that which other have written without any though about it's source. |
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lol. No, I believe you are the mentally retarded one.
I am not paid, just a casual miner who also makes a little profit using cex.io.
It would seem people like yourself are the joke as you cannot seem to figure out how to make a profit with such a service.
The joke is clearly on you.
Some might find themselves annoyed or even angered at this combination of arrogance and stupidity. Personally, I think I'm amused by it more than anything. Carry on, brave xandriel! Yell it from the rooftops! Why is it that some people, who do not use cex.io, constantly state as a fact that nobody can make any profit there despite some people who actually use the service claiming that they do indeed make a profit. Do you really believe you are all more intelligent than anybody else? That only idiots would use such a service? Or maybe you just had a bad experience and instead of accepting that you made the mistake, you blame the providing company. The fact is you CAN make a profit using cex.io. Many people are, including myself. |
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I always found it suspicious that they implemented difficulty into a maintenance fee. Apart from the usual hardware regeneration cycle all miners have to perform due to profitability, it has literally nothing to do with it, it's arbitrary and more like a knob to adjust their profits (i.e. to cover an unusually high rate of failure). My miners at home run at exactly the same fixed maintenance cost (unless power consumption or electricity prices were to increase), regardless of difficulty. As if difficulty made it more difficult/expensive to maintain mining hardware WTF ?! Thus, only cex.io will be affected if they continue that route of sneaking a non-maintenance relevant figure into the calculation, all other miners run the known and projected profit curves based on their actual TCO (total cost of ownership , which *hint* already includes projected diff increases all along  ). Their maintenance fee, as it stands now, would only make sense if they never intended to regenerate their hardware, thus passing decreasing/negative hardware ROI due to diff increases right onto their customers. Not a smart business plan, thus I don't assume that was their intention. Eventually, that would make them look like typical EBay sellers 24h-renting Block Erupter mining "power" for ludicrous money. But who knows, it's a weird club anyway. The fee is not based on the raw GH/s of the hardware. It is based on the number of good shares generated by the person per block. This is presumably done because it is much easier to track shares completed when you have variable GH/s per customer. Have you ever really read anything on their site? or do you just troll these forums? |
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Yes, one day the maintenance fees will be too high for the return, and people will stop using the service...but that day is not here yet.
Until then I will extract whatever profit I can from the service...and YES I do make a profit.
It really is not that difficult
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You really have no idea about it...that much is obvious
If the cost per GH/s remained constant, then the mining profit would be the actual profit.
Same as mining with your own hardware but cheaper.
It seems you wouldn't notice a profit if it smacked you in the face
Hm, just out of general politeness, I'm assuming you're not mentally retarded nor severely math challenged and gifted with no analytical or empirical skills to make such a bold (and obviously completely BS statement). No... You're more likely a paid shill. Given the quality of your statement, I assume you sold yourself cheap... PS. If someone dropped helicopter loads of valuables on me, I'd become rich... There's only one problem with that scenario - I'll let you figure it out yourself. It seems you wouldn't notice a loss even if it kicked your sold-out soul in the balls. Ironically even with your desired 3% spam bonus - you're likely still running a loss, which means the joke is on you... and you wouldn't even know. lol. No, I believe you are the mentally retarded one. I am not paid, just a casual miner who also makes a little profit using cex.io. It would seem people like yourself are the joke as you cannot seem to figure out how to make a profit with such a service. The joke is clearly on you. |
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You really have no idea about it...that much is obvious
If the cost per GH/s remained constant, then the mining profit would be the actual profit.
Same as mining with your own hardware but cheaper. Ahahahahahahahaha! You, sir, are the stereotype of a cex.io customer. A cex.io customer who is making a profit!  |
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So it will go back to 0.045-48 again? It's free BTC aint it after all? Instead of storing it in some third party wallet or have something happend recently?
No, it probably won't go back to those prices, just as actual hardware depreciates, so to does virtual hardware...and almost everything else you can buy for that matter. Storing your BTC in a wallet does not earn it anything, at least mining with it does...and trading certainly can too. And yes there are risks with trading, but your BTC is important enough to keep an eye on...no? Holding out for BTC to rise in value? well, it could also go down. |
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Even if the cost per GH/s stayed the same, some people would moan that they are not making enough profit.
Even if the cost per Ghs stayed the same, there still would be no profit to be made That's the whole story, their ROI is negative right from the start... But I'm not surprised to read that from a cex.io customer with this Signature : Want more bitcoin? Build you own cloud miner, today! (Referrer Spam removed) Honest Translation : Want to lose money? Build you own cloud miner, today! (someone please click on my Referral link so I get my 3% provision) You really have no idea about it...that much is obvious If the cost per GH/s remained constant, then the mining profit would be the actual profit. Same as mining with your own hardware but cheaper. It seems you wouldn't notice a profit if it smacked you in the face |
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Even if the cost per GH/s stayed the same, some people would moan that they are not making enough profit.
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Be careful! is an assasin clow! Hmmm, a quote from October 2012...when BTC was < 10$ |
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BFL = SCAM? Yeah right, which is why the 3 jally I own have paid for themselves and returned a profit...and are still mining. So, they sold gear that actually arrived and made me a profit, not a scam as far as I can see. I guess you didn't actually purchase which I why you complain so much, or maybe you were so stupid that you believed you would be the only BTC miner in the world. There is no scam here, some really poor customer service and over-pricing at times, but no scam. |
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It is also not so much mining, than GHS speculating IMHO
Yup. In fact, here's an interesting idea for someone more motivated than I am: Virtual MiningCreate a "virtual" GHs exchange. Sell the initial shares of GHs (an IPO, if you will) at a price comparable to cex.io. Now, pay "mining rewards" to all the people who bought shares in proportion to their virtual GHs holdings, in accordance with the current Bitcoin difficulty level. Let the customers buy and sell virtual GHs shares to their hearts content, but by all means continue to pay out "mining rewards" to the people who are holding virtual GHs. You now have something that is completely indistinguishable from cex.io, and you need risk nothing on hardware, a data center, or even pay for electricity. You just need an AWS instance running a simple web app. Assuming you set the price of the initial shares properly, you're guaranteed (as the owner of the exchange) a tidy profit -- the virtual GHs shares will never ROI for the IPO price, and any trading after that is inconsequential to your profits. And the best part is that you have an infinite supply of GHs to sell to all the math-challenged "miners" day traders that will apparently flock to anyone selling the chance to get their feet wet speculate on the price of GHs! Just be sure to keep the price per GHs artificially controlled (so as to give them all peace of mind that they can always sell to the greater fool), and you can laugh all the way to the bank. (I defy anyone to tell me why this would actually be different than what cex.io is currently doing). You are back to the same old mistake of claiming that nobody will get a return on their original investment. You can sell your shares back and reclaim some/most/all of your investment depending on what sale price you accept. Some people DO get a good return, plus the revenue from mining. If you were just virtual, there would be no evidence in the block chain, and your empire would crumble before your eyes faster than the idea to create it. Also you cannot keep the GH/s artificially inflated without upsetting a lot of people, and ultimately ending your business. People will only pay what they believe it is worth. Just a few differences for you |
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Where do you get your (mis)information?  You obviously have just trolled the forums and now assume you know everything. Renting hardware does not have such a bad ROI. It is rented, not purchased. For instance I purchased some GH/s 2 weeks ago, it cost 0.042 BTC per share. now worth 0.046 BTC per share...now most people would call this a profit of 0.004 BTC per share... in just 2 weeks, plus I profited from the mining revenue generated by the shares. So, to put simply: profit + profit = more profit. Not the guaranteed loss that too many fools seem to think. Yes, the value of GH/s will drop as difficulty goes up. Consider it the cost of renting the equipment, which would not be free, but a lot less in the short term when compared to purchasing the same equipment. However, it seems that your view is that renting is not viable, purchasing hardware is also not viable, the only way to make money with BTC is hoard it and gamble on the price rising....then claim all other ways are certain to make a loss. What I can tell you for certain is I have more BTC now than I did 2 weeks ago, and the BTC price is about the same. So it sure looks like a profit to me. Just wait a month. Just wait... "A fool and his money is soon parted"This is about how "profitable" you will come out : http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/e5c4f70041If you hope your total GHs resale price makes up for the "Cumulative Return" (=minimum required to break even on hardware), that would leave you with a 0 BTC sum investment on the rented hardware with only your permanently shrinking mined output available to you. Which (if everything reinvested) can't even make up for pool/network speed increase, let alone diff jumps - thus this will keep falling as well. Put in another way : Think you'll be able to sell for 0.038BTC/GHs at end of Jan 2014 ? That is actually possible, if you're lucky. Think you'll be able to sell for 0.034BTC/GHs at end of Feb 2014 ? That is hardly possible, even if you're lucky. Think you'll be able to sell for 0.031BTC/GHs at end of Mar 2014 ? That is near impossible. Think you'll be able to sell for 0.030BTC/GHs at end of Apr 2014 ? haha, good one... Think you'll be able to sell for 0.029BTC/GHs at end of May 2014 ? *omg* have you seen a doctor lately?... Within short timeframes, this seems to work (thanks to permanent market manipulation at cex.io), but it won't last long. When cex GHs price breaks downward, it breaks fast & furious like last time. And falling it will, guaranteed, taking your entire investment with it - step by step. Looks like you lost your investment with them, explains why you are certain nobody can make a profit. Lets see if your predictions come true, but one thing you can be sure of, if the cost per GH/s drops, all hardware profit drops too. All miners make less. This will certainly happen when the next gen of hardware appears. Just for a laugh, try running a hardware comparison through that prediction, what do you get? If the difficulty really keeps going at 80% or more per month, then BTC will cease to be profitable later this year. No matter how big your rig. From July it will not be profitable to keep ANY hardware running, if the difficulty keeps going the way it is. Things will change, they have to. |
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The whole thing is very simple, rent the hardware, mine, make profit. You recover your 'rental' cost by selling the GH/s you rented. Maybe this is the 'gifted' part you were referring to. I guess I must be gifted as I am able to sell when I see the price falling.
For the future, I do see BTC price increasing. Certainly the difficulty will sky-rocket when the next gen hardware pops out. It will also drop the cex.io cost per GH/s (or any other cloud hashing service).
Yes, it is that simple... Rent the hardware at less than 50% ROI, you will not recover your 'rental' costs by selling the GHs that by that time have systemically fallen in price. Which it does every week, despite the harsh manipulation occuring daily in the cex.io 'market' to keep prices beyond 200% of their true value. Certainly the difficulty will sky-rocket when the next gen hardware pops out. It will also drop the cex.io cost per GH/s And that's exactly what you're missing out in your calculation, your BTC and (if reinvested) your rented GHs is nominally rising of course, but falling in value faster than that.It's best compared to investing Dollars @ interest at a bank, and making 2% interest while experiencing a 4% inflation - that's how you lose money despite rising nominal numbers that may make you feel good. Selling out completely before any significant price drop (natural or manipulated) is paramount, and we both know that is impossible to achieve every single time (which if you fail one single time, your investment goes the road of everything cex.io and mining power - it loses value). If you were able to do that - you'd not be trading @ cex.io but at Wall Street and be a multi-millionaire by now. A typical comparison between average own hardware and cex.io, is that your total investment with own hardware may or may not achieve ROI (depending on purchase price, BTC valuation development, diff and resale price). Cex.io is different, as it guarantees you loss of investment (about 40-50% without trading and depending on time held onto rented GHs). As a rule of thumb - the longer you rent&hold GHs @ cex.io, the more money you will lose of that rent investment. If you were to re-invest everything you mine at cex.io indefinitely, you total net value would eventually approach near Zero - despite owning thousands of near-worthless GHs with them. This is how their game works. Where do you get your (mis)information? You obviously have just trolled the forums and now assume you know everything. Renting hardware does not have such a bad ROI. It is rented, not purchased. For instance I purchased some GH/s 2 weeks ago, it cost 0.042 BTC per share. now worth 0.046 BTC per share...now most people would call this a profit of 0.004 BTC per share... in just 2 weeks, plus I profited from the mining revenue generated by the shares. So, to put simply: profit + profit = more profit. Not the guaranteed loss that too many fools seem to think. Yes, the value of GH/s will drop as difficulty goes up. Consider it the cost of renting the equipment, which would not be free, but a lot less in the short term when compared to purchasing the same equipment. However, it seems that your view is that renting is not viable, purchasing hardware is also not viable, the only way to make money with BTC is hoard it and gamble on the price rising....then claim all other ways are certain to make a loss. What I can tell you for certain is I have more BTC now than I did 2 weeks ago, and the BTC price is about the same. So it sure looks like a profit to me. |
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It seems that haters will always hate. Even when you tell them you ARE making a profit from cex.io. Lets try looking at the REAL cost per GH/s. I live in the UK, so it will be in £, but you can convert to $ easily if you want. Here is a quick comparison with hardware that I can actually order for shipment today. If I buy an Antminer USB, it will cost me approx. £60 for 2GH/s....that is £30 per GH/s. EDIT: Antminer S1 is about £4800 for 180 GH/s...so about £27 per GH/s. If I buy 1 GH/s from cex.io it will cost 0.045 BTC, BTC is currently £560....so that is £25 per GH/s. This is not a conclusive list, there are better deals. This was just the first single miner I found that I could actually get. So per GH/s cex is cheaper and I get to mine instantly. Hardware will devalue with difficulty increases too. Once I am done mining with cex, I can easily sell the hardware I leased...hopefully for the same or more than I paid for it. The current price has been roughly stable for the past few weeks. If I had been lucky enough to get 1st batch on a KNC miner or had the buying power to bulk buy like cex have, I would without doubt get a much better price per GH/s, but I could not. I could buy in to the current tech, but would certainly not get a return on that investment. Even the next gen is looking poor when predicted. Could cex make more money buy keeping the hashing power for themselves...certainly. However it would be a lot more difficult to get financial backing for such a business plan. All hardware manufacturers would also earn more by keeping their hardware. If your argument is purely based in the max profit assumptions, then you should not bother buying hardware either. There is another factor, some of us enjoy being part of bitcoin and mining. We are not here for max profit, just some profit will suffice  To keep things short : When you do tell people you ARE making money at cex.io, all you're saying is either : a) you are lyingor b) you completely suck at math... or (unlikely) c) you are a luck-gifted pro trader, countering your losses by bot-/daytrading, which everyone knows is the only slim chance to actually profit mining w/ rented GHs @ cex.io If you buy an Antminer USB, you know you won't make profit unless BTC conversion price skyrockets at some time... If you buy an Antminer S1 180GHs for £4800 today, you'd be seriously retarded. That's not what the device is sold for today. So by your "logic", cex.io GHs is cheaper than these deals (lol, that's easy) and won't make you a 70-80% loss, but only a ~40-50% loss. Wow, great deal ! Could cex.io make more money by keeping the hashing power for themselves?.... certainly not. Fools that rent those in large amounts (severely math challenged or paid shills that just claim so) far more than double cex.io profits. It's okay not got do it for max. profits, but you're advertising a pretty solid, guaranteed loss. That's what the fools are needed for, they got to pay so that others can maximize profit (i.e. cex.io)... IMHO, the best compromise I could imagine concerning a statement about mining profitability is : Don't do it, unless you're only in it for the learning experience and accept solid losses doing so (unless you're willing to bet on 10000$+ preorders on highend gear to be profitable in the future).
If you want to have a chance to break even, buy BTC directly instead and hope for conversion price increases in the future! I do make a profit by using cex.io. It is not difficult at all. I think you must be talking about the fools that hate without a single idea of what they are talking about, or maybe you tried and lost so now you are sure nobody can make any money. If cex.io is better than buying the hardware (yes, you would have to be retarded to buy old tech at this time), then there really is no future for any hardware, old or new. In short, I am not lying when I say I make a profit there. I am not stupid, and I would not keep using their service if I was making a loss. I am also not a gifted pro trader, or bot. The whole thing is very simple, rent the hardware, mine, make profit. You recover your 'rental' cost by selling the GH/s you rented. Maybe this is the 'gifted' part you were referring to. I guess I must be gifted as I am able to sell when I see the price falling. For the future, I do see BTC price increasing. Certainly the difficulty will sky-rocket when the next gen hardware pops out. It will also drop the cex.io cost per GH/s (or any other cloud hashing service). |
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It seems that haters will always hate. Even when you tell them you ARE making a profit from cex.io. Lets try looking at the REAL cost per GH/s. I live in the UK, so it will be in £, but you can convert to $ easily if you want. Here is a quick comparison with hardware that I can actually order for shipment today. If I buy an Antminer USB, it will cost me approx. £60 for 2GH/s....that is £30 per GH/s. EDIT: Antminer S1 is about £4800 for 180 GH/s...so about £27 per GH/s. If I buy 1 GH/s from cex.io it will cost 0.045 BTC, BTC is currently £560....so that is £25 per GH/s. This is not a conclusive list, there are better deals. This was just the first single miner I found that I could actually get. So per GH/s cex is cheaper and I get to mine instantly. Hardware will devalue with difficulty increases too. Once I am done mining with cex, I can easily sell the hardware I leased...hopefully for the same or more than I paid for it. The current price has been roughly stable for the past few weeks. If I had been lucky enough to get 1st batch on a KNC miner or had the buying power to bulk buy like cex have, I would without doubt get a much better price per GH/s, but I could not. I could buy in to the current tech, but would certainly not get a return on that investment. Even the next gen is looking poor when predicted. Could cex make more money buy keeping the hashing power for themselves...certainly. However it would be a lot more difficult to get financial backing for such a business plan. All hardware manufacturers would also earn more by keeping their hardware. If your argument is purely based in the max profit assumptions, then you should not bother buying hardware either. There is another factor, some of us enjoy being part of bitcoin and mining. We are not here for max profit, just some profit will suffice |
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While it mazy be an interesting concept, it is not practical. Why would someone mine bitcoins for someone else instead of just keeping the bitcoins for themselves? A better idea is bitcoin futures.
Because they would get more bang for the GHS renting rather than using themselves? That doesn't make sense. Suppose my miner can mine 1 BTC per month. I would rent it out for 1.1 BTC per month. Why rent it for less? On the other hand, why would someone pay 1.1 BTC per month to mine 1 BTC per month? You wouldn't rent it for that price. You would rent it for less than 1 BTC, say 0.5 BTC. Now let's say you spent 3 BTC buying the hardware, and running costs for 6 months. You break even on your purchase. You have the hardware, and someone else is making money for you...in exchange you split half the profit with them. |
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