because we are a civilized people Please don't do that again. My keyboard's warranty doesn't cover vomit damage. +1. They have the highest incarceration rate in the world yet this guy claims they are civilized. He lost touch with reality. Were those the same civilized people that genocided away roughly 100 million savages? |
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Well done, Erik. More people need to understand these fundamental principles. Education will always be our greatest tool for enriching this new economy.
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In the long run, governments are handicapping their own currencies by making them incapable of buying Bitcoins. In the short term however, this really is a problem. I wrote an article about this a week or so ago. Kind of extreme, but it's really just food for thought. If you're interested... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207764.0;all |
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I don't think it is possible, at a fundamental level, to have any sort of distributed, or P2P, or non-centralized method to go USD<->BTC
All you can do is local bitcoins.
Every way of moving USD into the digital internet realm is highly regulated
The key is to use this regulation to your advantage. That was the whole point of my post. Instead of trying to pick away at the system from the outside, infiltrating from within (like my proposal, or something analogous) seems like the most "fundamental" way of going about this. Use the system to process it's own downfall. As far as local exchanges, I love the idea, but I don't expect that to be legal for very much longer... |
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The point is, any "elaborate tree house" is just money laundering, plain and simple.
Your mother should be ashamed of what a weak coward you are. The idea of p2p exchange has been discussed on here for years, but hasn't materialized. My guess is that the people with the skills to do it are already too busy and there is not a lot (if any) money to be made doing it. Also, it would take time for nodes to build a trusted reputation for paying out the fiat - during which a lot of people will get scammed. I would like to see a whole bunch more localbitcoin sites that are hosted all over the world and on TOR. Its a great way to build reputations and the more trusted, LOCAL exchangers, the better. I'm in LA and already have a book of contacts to buy from and sell to. The problem is that most developers don't want to spend time and effort developing something that is in a shady legal realm. You could code a framework that would minimize the instances of scamming considerably, but the bigger problem must be where do you go once everything is complete? How many developers are willing to dedicate themselves to this underground project after it's up and running? Most like certainty (who doesn't), and the amount of work required to establish and orchestrate something like the idea I proposed would be well outside the comfort zone of most of our coding brethren. Obviously my proposal is somewhat extreme (though I consider it to be a very serious option), but even a simple p2p fiat exchange outside of the banking system would be inviting legal scrutiny. |
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In the eyes of the law, Bitcoin itself is already money laundering...plain and simple.
Except that's not true. It can be used for money laundering once the fiat is in the equation. The trader problem is a chicken and egg problem. Ultimately the more people who accept BTC as payment, the more the problem goes away. Until then we still need exchanges. But to get to this ideal point in the future, we need to focus on the traders, and keep the exchanges from being shut down. On the contrary, proposing an overt money laundering scheme strikes me as bait for the authorities. and could bring more harm than good. For all intents and purposes, it moves your aim from "Want to buy and use digital currency" to "Want to launder money". And if that's your aim, a public forum is probably not the wisest place to set that kind of thing up. And this is why it is a de facto money laundering tool as far as the government is concerned. The key word is "can". Think of these scenarios: Me and you meet in some dark alleyway. I have 10 million dollars I need "laundering". You have the equivalent in Bitcoin. Commodities exchange hands -or- Me and you meet on some public internet marketplace for the world to see. I just spent 10 million dollars on some classic work of art (you could say I "laundered" my fiat with it). You have the equivalent value in Bitcoin. Commodities exchange hands. Is there a substantive difference between these two scenarios? In my eyes, no, and neither to the eyes of the US government. There's no need for wishful thinking. Bitcoin will never be accepted by the status quo (at least in its present state. They could always co-opt it and produce some bastardization, e.g. Ripple). |
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The point is, any "elaborate tree house" is just money laundering, plain and simple.
I agree the solution is to have more exit nodes... Yes. But why focus on BTC-> fiat conversion? It's the fiat that is the problem. We need more grass roots buyers and sellers of physical goods accepting Bitcoin. Focus on that. There is no need to hide it, and it is not illegal.
In the eyes of the law, Bitcoin itself is already money laundering...plain and simple. The main point here is that we can't move fiat around as easily as Bitcoin. This is where services like Dwolla come in. If you're proposing we build the Bitcoin economy solely on the backs of merchants, you're ignoring the fact that there are billions of people who don't have Bitcoins. Where would they get it from? Mining? You can't expect everyone who wants to get involved in Bitcoin to become a merchant in order to do so. The reason we've had such a huge explosion in the value of this currency is because massive amounts of Fiat have been taken out of the old economy in exchange for Bitcoin. As this becomes more and more difficult because of government intervention, we'll have to start considering ideas like this, however inconceivable they may seem at first. |
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If you really believe the US Gov is out of control, the most effective way to reduce its power is tax resistance. Reduce or eliminate your tax burden, and lobby congress for major tax reform (mainly in that companies like GE and Exxon pay a 0% tax rate through loopholes and armies of lawyers and offshore accounting). The majority of the tax burden - and the responsibility for the atrocities our government commits with those funds - falls on the lower and middle class, the same people who are being relentlessly exploited by corporate America and the 1%. Im socially liberal and I do believe in some government programs but the level we have taken it to in America, and the huge levels of waste and inefficiency in these programs is borderline criminal. And forget our military budget. Im all for supporting the troops and people who would lay down to protect what our founding fathers created, but where we have taken it to post WWII is indefensible. We arent "defending America" when we invaded Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan. Shit, Bin Laden wasnt even in Afghanistan. Our current wars or "police actions" as defined by congress are simply an attempt to project American power across the globe and ensure American hegemony. It has nothing to do with "freedom," and everything to do with power, resources, and money (the defense contractors who pay congress to keep them in the black). I highly recommend reading MIT professor Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival, available here on Amazon, for an in depth analysis of post WWII and post 9/11 foreign policy in the US. http://www.amazon.com/Hegemony-Survival-Americas-Dominance-American/dp/0805076883And don't forget how our taxes actually trained and paid Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviets for us. I also recommend Chomsky's book. He's actually my favorite political writer. Definitely required reading for anyone who wants to understand the intricacies of American imperialism. |
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I love the idea of a totally decentralized exchange like this. But I see one legal problem with it: if the government sees this going on and realizes what is happening, it's likely going to treat it as money laundering. I don't see any way this can happen and actually be thought of as legal by the US government. Would it be harder to target than an exchange? Absolutely, but by no means impossible.
Insert your favorite talking head's voice here: "Breaking news people. You don't want to miss this....A large group of 'crypto-currency' fanatics have had billions of dollars seized by authorities. Experts say these individual's facilitated transactions between criminals dealing in child pornography, identity theft, illegal narcotics, counterfeit money, money laundering, and may have played a role in the terrorist attacks of (insert date here). It took 18 months and almost 1 billion dollars in tax payers' money to catch these cagey cyber-crooks, but the effort has paid off in a big way! (cuts to many guys being arrested for doing nothing more than being the 'b' - see below. The spin makes them look like KPers or meth dealers.) This was the largest money seizure of it's kind anywhere in the world. Stay tuned for more details on this exciting report by Trisha Takanowa." I like the idea of the circle of trust. I don't like the idea of spending time in Gitmo for doing nothing more than being the the 'b' in a->b->c. When will we realize, as a society, that 'b' has NOTHING to do with the ultimate outcome? It's going to happen either way. These must be stepping stones toward a world where we don't have to worry about Fiat at all. The only reason this is necessary is because not everyone has Bitcoins. Not everyone has a business accepting Bitcoins. Not everyone has friends they can buy Bitcoins from. To truly establish the crypto-economy (it's already happening, just slower than it needs to), we need to first extract as much capital out of the old economy as possible. |
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I have a better idea: Start a buttonwood in your local area. Advertise it on Craigslist (yes, I've seen bitcoin ads on Craigslist), localbitcoins, meetups section of forum, other forum, Facebook, etc. Show up each week and wait.  Worst case scenario, you get extra time to read books or check email. Best case, you get a free exchange and place to trade bitcoins for cash and vice versa. Not only cash! If you live in an interesting, diverse, and somewhat popular area, you can have people selling turnips for bitcoins, or gold/silver, or goods/services. You never know what kind of monster you can create... How would I get $500,000 worth of Bitcoin at a buttonwood? How bout a million? |
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MY FACE EXACTLY  As in, you're interested? Or you're amazed that anyone would consider this? |
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I love the idea of a totally decentralized exchange like this. But I see one legal problem with it: if the government sees this going on and realizes what is happening, it's likely going to treat it as money laundering. I don't see any way this can happen and actually be thought of as legal by the US government. Would it be harder to target than an exchange? Absolutely, but by no means impossible.
They wouldn't be able to see that those accounts are linked into a large network, because the underlying program would be invisible. After a very long time they might notice patterns emerge, since transfers are being made to nodes on a semi-regular basis, but on the surface it would just appear as a small account with a few thousand dollars sending out a few hundred dollars to other small accounts at very irregular time intervals. Also, they already consider Bitcoin itself as a money laundering vehicle, so it's too late to worry about that. |
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What I don't understand is why no one is trying to create Satoshi's suggestion regarding this matter...... sigh... maybe one day after I finish the projects at hand.
What exactly was his recommendation? |
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If no centralization like Mt Gox, How can we know what our bitcoins can buy?
You could ask your neighbor how much they would take for a bitcoin. Since bitcoin is still in beta, you will be doing him or her a favor by just mentioning it to them. A "price" is simply a measure of how much someone values a good. If I can find someone willing to pay $500 a Bitcoin, then that's the price of Bitcoin, regardless of what's happening on some Japanese website. |
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Why do they expect us to sit behind our computer screens and merely act in reactionary clicks and types as our freedoms are legislated away from us? Because that's been the precedent that we have set.
Perhaps Africa is a prime location to "skip" the whole checking/credit card/debit card, traditional banking step. Don't waste time building an antiquated infrastructure, and jump straight to the future...I would not be surprised if that were the case. After all, Zimbabwe is a great example to other African nations as to what debt-money means for their country. There's actually already a large financial infrastructure already established in most of Africa. The problem is, it's destroying other infrastructures (agricultural, telecommunications, cultural...etc) |
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P2P is the way to go, turn the exchanges into a Hydra with a million heads that can't all be cut off.
Have the client handle their own buy/sell info and distribute the load of a virtual exchange via VPN.
Make the entire network a single virtual trading floor where everyone can digitally "shout out" their order.
Exactly. Easier said than done, obviously, but this is the only way that I can imagine Bitcoin progressing to the next level of legitimacy. |
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I think you need to look into Ripple.
Ripple ≠ This I guess I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish with all the bank accounts. Wouldn't that the govt more to seize? Finding and compromising 1 bank account is one thing (think Dwolla). Doing the same for 10, is a whole different story. Now imagine 10,000. Yeah, I guess so. In the end, with all the required effort to coordinate bank ledgers it might be easier and quicker to just overthrow the government and start a new country. LOL this is what computers are for.... |
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The whole point is that the people and institutions which derive their power from Fiat see Bitcoin as a threat to their order. The recent Homeland Security action is a testament to this. To think that Bitcoin can be a "legitimate" currency alongside the US Dollar is ignoring the reality of the situation. Bitcoin is an upfront assault on the legitimacy of the international Fiat system. Services like Ripple are destined to go the way of any service which proposes to establish Bitcoin functionally within the existing Fiat frameworks. Bitcoin is not meant to live alongside Fiat. It is meant to kill it. With extreme prejudice.
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