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1  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: February 14, 2016, 06:19:09 PM

strange because I got this from my lawyer "Finally, the date for the main hearing is set to 16, 17 and 18 (half day) Mars 2016."
Are you suing KnC as an individual or did you join a class action group?
Which lawyer are you dealing with if I may ask?

It'd be great if you can post an update after the hearing.
2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now! on: November 30, 2014, 04:39:54 PM
Oh yeah that's a good point. These little shits were using their accountant reputation as a reason why they can be trusted and would "never do anything wrong against their customers."

Well then guys, I think it's time we all follow up on our end of the bargain and make sure they lose all their licenses. Time to get going, shall we :}
Not sure you can get the accountants legally in trouble.

But what I'm REALLY surprised is that they didn't tell their little brother that a delayed filing for insolvency can cause a lot of trouble in a court. But maybe they advised him very carefully, and all this asking for more money and making customers stakeholders is actually legal.
I think Alpha probably was under water or insolvent long ago IF they had properly accounted for their assets/liabilities, the latter including refunds to customers.

I'd really suggest the route retro72 and others recommended. E.g. I simply would have filed a small claims court case if I hadn't gotten my money back via the CC. I'm curious how the legal system works anyways, so that would have been interesting.
Quick update on this.

Alpha-Tech challenged the credit card chargeback claiming that their T&C does not allow for refunds and that the product is about to ship(!)

I wrote to the credit card bank reiterating that they have not delivered a single unit by now and that I'm not paying for a product that I didn't receive. Otherwise I would have to file a small claims court and add the bank as a defendant as I expect Alpha Tech to go bankrupt.

The credit card bank agreed that Alpha Tech has not conformed to Mastercard rules and has upheld my refund. However, they said that it is possible that Alpha Tech would challenge the chargeback again going forward, and that the dispute would be reactivated then.
3  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: October 05, 2014, 01:56:43 PM
This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/
Hi Retro,

So if I understand correctly, this is the process:
1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment
2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter
3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action

I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC.
Have you send both already?
Yes that's it.
1) invoice with a due date.
2) If due date lapses. The day after send a reminder, with a short deadline
3)7-10 days after the new deadline lapses send a Letter Before Action.
4)If the debt is not settled within 12 days of the Letter Before Action, contact the Swedish Enforcement Authority (https://www.kronofogden.se/).
5) If they still refuse they will be summoned to court for a judgement

The invoice due date passed yesterday for me. I've been busy today so I'm sending a reminder letter on Monday. I'll probably contact the police as well. You can skip steps 2-4 and apply for a court summons immediately. Depending on KNCs response to the reminder and my schedule I might just hire a lawyer and have at it.

Interestingly from what I've read you can settle multiple claims at one hearing, a sort of mini class action so cost can be shared by several parties. Obviously all costs are recovered if you win the case.  I'll probably shoot a few emails to law firms on Monday to get a better view of the options.
Yeah, I've sent off the final reminder on Friday. As I am off for vacation in a week I cannot even take the delivery anyways. So if KnC still leaves the delivery to be destroyed if I don't take delivery it is certainly not my fault (besides, I think this is another threat of KnC to make customers obey).

Regarding lawyer, haha00 has looked one up. Not sure if it is the best/cheapest choice. However, I think we should all coordinate this effort. The more people are in to one lawsuit, the cheaper/better.

As I have written in the other thread, Sweden is the poster child of the EU regarding class action, as they already have procedures in place for it.

Interestingly the ECCS has also replied to my complaint and has referred me to ARN. It's about what I was expected. However, I don't really want to wait as long as the ARN procedure may take.
4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: October 03, 2014, 07:42:38 AM
This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/
Hi Retro,

So if I understand correctly, this is the process:
1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment
2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter
3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action

I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC.
Have you send both already?
5  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: October 01, 2014, 08:33:30 AM
KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/
Quote
“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”
It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?
It's entirely unrelated, as BFL is a US company dealing with US customers/consumers and the US does not have strong consumer protection. The term "all sales are final" for BFL's T&C may be regarded sufficient to reject refunds.

However, KnC operates in the EU and sold to EU customers. We have proper laws here and cowboys don't stand a chance in european courts. So we may be successful arguing that we are consumers not businesses.

I also think that KnC broke several contract terms even if we run a business.
6  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 28, 2014, 09:07:16 PM
I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.
Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?
I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.
I've only heard it once from a person on their forums. He wanted to not accept the delivery and KnC said any undelivered item would be left with the shipping company until you either pick it up or the shipping company destroys it.

It seems quite odd to me, but it does fit with their overall behavior.

Thank you very much for doing this! It's very helpful! I invite you for a few drinks or lunch if you ever come to London.
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 28, 2014, 05:44:09 PM
I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.
Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 28, 2014, 12:46:14 PM

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.


This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!
Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.
9  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 28, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.
I don't think they need to state "non-refundable". That is implied by selling to business only. So you either argue that you are a consumer not a business, or you show that they have broken the contract to a degree that allows you to cancel as a business.

But that's only my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer.
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 28, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
My current thoughts revolve around the points below all of which don't require I am a consumer! Of course I would still argue that I am a consumer and provide evidence for it (tax returns, full-time employment contract).

However, I believe most points below are not clear cut. There's no guarantee a judge would rule in our favor, as KnC's T&C were written by weasels. Point 1. is excluded by their T&C, Point 2. has changed over time and may not be part of the contract, and point 3. is something a business may have to deal with to some degree.

1. Late Delivery
1.1 shipping may not have begun in Q2/Q3
Their order page said "will be shipping in Q2/Q3" and "shipping begins Q2/Q3". KnC ships now to fulfill this promise. However, the product they ship is unfinished and does not work as promised.According to their T&C "KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery [...]". I would argue KnC has not shipped the product yet and hence has not fulfilled their contract yet! See 2. for details.

1.2 Q2 was not achievable
KnC implicitly admits it themselves. It's great! KnC stated in their news that the Titan was "progressing as expected and we plan to ship in Q3" and "we see no delays in the production process so far" (June 30, 2014) and that they "see no delays in production so far and expect to start shipping well before the end of Q3" (July 28, 2014). The first time they have admitted to a possible delay was "fab yield is not as good as we hoped for" (September 11, 2014).

2. Below/Different Specification
"KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification [...]". To my understanding it implies that my miner should perform at 300MH/s and 800-1000W no matter when I have ordered. Is this a correct interpretation of "at all times" or do they mean "at the time the contract was concluded"? These specifications have been published in official news updates of KnC. KnC has also stated that of course all customers get the benefit of the performance increase.

2.1 power requirements are 1160W not 800W
2.2 Does not run on an 800-1000W PSU
It should be possible to get compensation for this. After all, we are considered businesses by KnC!
2.3 The Titan struggles to run at 300MH/s
According to customer experience the Titan requires constant reboots and does not achieve 300MH/s. This may be fixed with the  new firmware. It would be best if I had written evidence that the miner did not work as expected in Q2/Q3. Please contact me if you happen to have an early Titan that doesn't work as expected.
2.4 Changed casing from Jupiter form factor to Neptune
Probably not important enough to go for a refund. However, did the Jupiter suffer the fire hazard problem? If not then this may be relevant.


3. Electrical setup is complex
3.1 A Standard ATX PSU may not be sufficient
The PSU PCIe-connector required is a 45750 Mini-Fit® Plus HCS Crimp Terminal Crimped to 16 AWG wire.
I am not an electricial and I am not able to deal with this.

3.2 Not CE certified (etc.)
From their FAQ: "We want to ship as fast as possible. If we included a power supply, the certification process would be a longer and we'd have a lot of variations to design that would take precious time from your mining opportunity". This should have been made clear at the time of the order, not hidden in some FAQ.

3.3. Sold as a Developer Kit (not sure where it said this)
I'm NOT a developer even if I am a business. KnC has a duty to make this clear at the time of the order.



Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.
11  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Class action against kncminer.com on: September 27, 2014, 10:54:54 AM
Is a class action lawsuit even possible with regards to where the company is based?
Very much so. But I doubt a class action is five customers suing the company.
The EU is actually committed to offer class action type redress for consumers and if I remember correctly somewhere in the documents below it lists Sweden as a country that already has a class action system in place.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/solving_consumer_disputes/judicial_redress/index_en.htm

Let me know if you find anything interesting in there.
12  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 27, 2014, 10:50:47 AM
Maybe we should merge those threads - Class action against kncminer.com
Hi Mishax1,
I've initially created the other thread to gauge interest in a class action type lawsuit. This thread is simply to discuss which points are relevant for a potential lawsuit. I did not want this thread to be full of customers stating they are unhappy. Facts is what wins a lawsuit, I hope you understand.

I'm pretty underwhelmed at the level of interest these threads attracted so far.
13  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 27, 2014, 08:54:09 AM
Yeah, I'm done with KNC. I'm not letting their overpriced pieces of junk burn my house down. This post last night just validates my concerns http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/59510-knc-s-hot-products-fried-cable.

That happened even with the Y splitters KNC said would solve the problem. I have 3 Titans on order, 12 boxes that could happen to. They would have been running in and outbuilding close to my main house. If that happened to me I would not know until the building was in flames and it would probably take my house with it.

I've asked for a refund. I'm building a pretty damning case against them. If they care to look at my posts concerning Alpha Technology and on the Cointerra forum (before they shut it down) they'll  see I'm the kind of arsehole that just doesn't go away and I'll fight through every court in Sweden and the EU if I have too.

If/when my miners arrive I will refuse them. I have sent them an invoice for the money I'm owed. If this is not paid I will send in the Bailiffs, report them to the police and start court proceedings.

I'll keep you posted.

Hey retro, great to hear from you on here! You actually helped me to get a refund from Alpha Tech, so it's only fair if I helped you a bit with information on here! Oh, and I've also promised KnC to be a proper pain in the a.. Wink

It'd be great to collaborate on this case, join forces and share evidence. I've not updated this with all details regarding my actions, as I think KnC may benefit if they know what I am up to. I have also sent a letter requesting a cancellation and refund. I think that the clock now works for me at this point.

I'm continuously collecting snapshots and evidence on KnC's forums. TBH I don't understand why so many people still post on KnC's website given that they police the forum and delete posts.

Regarding the Y-cables, I don't think these were KnC's Y-cables, nor do I think anyone has received them yet. It is unlikely that the KnC provided cables are of better quality, though.
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: September 23, 2014, 12:53:55 AM
KnC should have put two PCIe power connectors on each module, but I assume they miscalculated the power requirements and that's why they only included one.

Nope, incompetence - and they didn't care.
It was clear that each cube would draw >>200W, so why spec a 75W plug?!? Greed and negligence!


That mistake made, they should have included PCIe Y cables with every Neptune. It's a cheap solution to the problem. Finally they see that now, and are sending out Y cables to every customer.

I still believe it's not that KnC "see's that now", but that they were under pressure. I have notified one consumer agency regarding the fire risk and also threatened to return the Titan straight away. I'm pretty sure "burning cables" would be interesting to many health and safety authorities.

It's damage control of KnC, nothing else.
15  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: September 23, 2014, 12:48:44 AM
So, what about the new offer?

400 GH/s for six months for 249$

https://www.kncminer.com/products/400ghs-btc-cloud-mining

If Knc can deliver, that seems like a fantastic price for 400 GH/s hosted for 6 months. A S3 is around $249 right now, and the Knc deal also includes hosting for 6 months.

I would jump all over this deal, but I don't particularly trust Knc to deliver on their promises.

The price seems too good to be true, so I'm skeptical.

Please READ their T&C before handing over your money. Just flip through "Liability" and it'll set you straight again. They can basically non-deliver without compensation - at least to the maximum extent permitted by law. Rest assured you'll need to find a lawyer before KnC pays you any compensation.

...but thinking again... please order... someone's got to pay for my Titan refund if it gets through. Wink


Quote
LIABILITY

    We provide and maintain the Website and the Service on an “as is” and “as available” basis and we are liable only to provide our services with reasonable skill and care.
    We give no other warranty in connection with the Website or the Service and we disclaim all liability for:
        the accuracy, currency or validity of information and material contained within the Website;
        any change in the exchange rate of Bitcoins;
        any change in the difficulty of mining;
        any changes in applicable law or regulation, or the acts of any legislator or regulator in any part of the world;
        any interruptions to or error of the Website or the Service or other communications network;
        the infringement by any other person of any copyright or other intellectual property rights of any third party through any User Content or use of the Website or the Service;
        the availability, quality, content or nature of External Sites;
        any amount or kind of loss or damage due to viruses or other malicious software that may infect a user's computer equipment, software, data or other property caused by any other person accessing, using or downloading the Website, the Service or any User Content; and
        all representations, warranties, conditions and other terms and conditions which, but for this notice, would have effect.
    We will not be liable in any amount for failure to perform any obligation under these terms of use if that failure is caused by the occurrence of an event beyond our reasonable control.
    Except as provided above there are no other warranties, conditions or other terms and conditions, express or implied, statutory or otherwise, and all of those terms and conditions are hereby excluded to the maximum extent permitted by law.
    To the maximum extent permitted by law, we exclude liability for any losses or damages which may you may suffer,
whether the same are suffered directly or indirectly or are immediate or consequential, which fall within any of the following categories:
    special damage even though that party was aware of the circumstances in which such special damage could arise;
    loss of anticipated savings;
    loss of business opportunity and management time;
    loss of goodwill;
    loss of Bitcoin arising as a result of any of your acts or omissions of those of any third party;
    loss arising out of or in connection with:
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 22, 2014, 10:52:42 PM
Let's see...
I've posted a pretty clear letter last week by registered mail asking for a refund. I've also made it clear that any chance of a fire is simply NOT acceptable for the miner and that I demand a refund if the Titan was designed like the Neptune.

And what happened? KnC didn't ship on Thursday, stating "problems". I do wonder whether this is related. So I'm still hoping they won't be able to deliver till the 30.09.2014. At that point it should be possible (albeit not guaranteed) to sue for a refund.
17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: September 22, 2014, 10:49:53 PM
it shows their "generosity", and gives them another excuse to keep delay shipping the orders (neptune, titan and bonus miner).

Maybe soon we will expect some news from kfc like "we are busy shipping the Y cables to our loyal customers, and we have to postpone your neptune/titan shipment"....

Besides, times goes much slower in KfC. they say "soon", it means "never"; they say "weeks", it is actually "months"...

I still haven't figured out the purpose of the Y cables?
I do wonder whether this is my "fault".
I sent them a pretty clear letter >1 week ago (arrival last Wed/Thu) saying that I demand a refund if the Titan comes with 1 x PCIe 6pin. I've also made it clear that a fire hazard is completely unacceptable.
And I've reported them to an consumer authority regarding sale of dangerous product (see Neptune) and attached a few pictures of molten connectors.

It could be that KnC was scared and thought it's safer/cheaper to include Y cables now.

Shute, I should have waited for delivery and THEN screw them! At least it should have cost them as much as my Titan has cost. I'm not going to stop here. I want to be a pain in the ass for KnC - they deserve some love, just how they showed us, their customers, all the love they could.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435
18  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: September 17, 2014, 06:56:17 PM
I based my figures off of Jupiters batches 1 and 2, where KNC's internal insurance invoiced their value at $1000USD when being shipped back to them, or within their company controls.
[...]
Consider how many tens of millions they took home in profit on their tax statement. Their profit margins weren't 30%, they were generously higher.
Yep, the 1000$ marginal cost sounds about right. Not sure how much the ASIC NRE's are, though. If they got 25m$ for the Titan Batch1 they may have spent 10-20m$ on R&D?
Batch2 was pure profit, though.

I don't think KNC is in a cash flow position to do anything special for their customers.
They seem to be struggling. The latest series A won't last them long.
Expect to get the absolute minimum possible from KNC these days, at the very last moment.
Well, that doesn't add up when considering the calculation above. Unless...
Did you ever wonder why it says "KnC Sweden 20nm AB"? I'd guess because there are "KnC 28nm AB", "KnC Cloud", "KnC Private Mining", "KnC Holding" etc. The founders kept the 10's of m$ in their holding (or private accounts!) and make sure that any failure in the future doesn't cost them a penny.

The KnC 20nm is probably struggling to meet payments because of the Neptune debacle (first tape out botched etc) and was close to go bankrupt. As the latter is really not pretty both from bad publicity as well as the "annoying" legal investigations KnC tried to avoid the bankruptcy with dubious measures. Such as offering 5%-10% more refund money if the refund is delayed. And start taking Titan pre-orders - which has saved them.

Disclaimer: I don't know any details and all of the above is pure speculation.
19  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now! on: September 17, 2014, 07:05:02 AM
Oh yeah that's a good point. These little shits were using their accountant reputation as a reason why they can be trusted and would "never do anything wrong against their customers."

Well then guys, I think it's time we all follow up on our end of the bargain and make sure they lose all their licenses. Time to get going, shall we :}
Not sure you can get the accountants legally in trouble.

But what I'm REALLY surprised is that they didn't tell their little brother that a delayed filing for insolvency can cause a lot of trouble in a court. But maybe they advised him very carefully, and all this asking for more money and making customers stakeholders is actually legal.
I think Alpha probably was under water or insolvent long ago IF they had properly accounted for their assets/liabilities, the latter including refunds to customers.

I'd really suggest the route retro72 and others recommended. E.g. I simply would have filed a small claims court case if I hadn't gotten my money back via the CC. I'm curious how the legal system works anyways, so that would have been interesting.
20  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune on: September 17, 2014, 06:53:28 AM
I got my refund back today.. Actions taken: Hired a lawyer, sent a legal notice, Called a local police (Swedish) and launched a formal complaint (FIR- first investigation report), I wish I could have taken those steps 4 months ago to avoid begging for my money to be returned..

I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..

I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..
Thanks for posting this. I'll need to update the OP when I get time. To my knowledge all the people that got a refund had ordered a Neptune and were most likely allowed refunds.
The route going through the police sounds interesting, but I don't feel confident enough to do it yet.

I've sent a letter to KnC citing swedish law (!) now, which gives you rights to cancel the contract NOT ONLY if you are a consumer, but also if you are a business and they do not fulfill their promises or what you can reasonably expect from them (this includes properties they did not promise in the contract, but that you would reasonably expect, e.g. fire safety). The important thing seems to act AS and WHEN you get aware of these facts and demand compensation from KnCMiner so that you reserve your right to cancel.

Last but not least, also called the German "Verbraucherschutz" seems more helpful, but not sure if they'd help me as I'm living in the UK. She said, she's heard about this case before, but doesn't know what the current state is. They had passed it on to lawyers that would look into it.

Finally and interestingly, the EU law is VERY clear IF you are considered a consumer: you can sue them locally in your country of residence (!!!). I think I even understand now how to enforce the title you get from your local court in Sweden.

Anyways, there hasn't been much interest on this thread here, so not sure I'll be updating it as frequently.
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