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481  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 15, 2015, 01:15:33 PM
im not sure what it means, and I don't have a nice chart, but I think this belongs in here!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30829917

That is interesting. What I think might start happening is a fall in the USD as a  result  which could send Bitcoin soaring.  

That's pre-empting QE EU.


Did anyone see it coming?

Nah, no one ever sees these things coming.
Everyone knew it would come, but only the inner circle knew when.
Pegs always fail. 
Why the Blockstream folks like to use the word for the SC "currency that is a wallet for bitcoin" still baffles me.
482  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 14, 2015, 11:03:37 PM
And that assumes an honest market which now that Wall Street is involved is anybodies guess.
Wait, what?!? How is Wall Street involved in Bitcoin?
Yep my mistake.  There is no Winkelvoss coin etf.  No syndicates.  No Pantera.  No Second Market.  No BIT.  No Tim Draper.  And of course all those people with money and connections have no influence at exchanges.  The regular stock market is full of fail to deliver and shorts without actual borrowed shares.  But that could never happen to bitcoin.  You're right. 
Meh, this is peanuts to them. Bitcoin trading should be conducted by licensed brokers on regulated exchanges. The bitcoins on exchanges should be whitelisted by regions and only transferable in and out of exchanges by brokers. Of course they can be mixed outside of exchanges. I think that would end wild speculation and give markets a chance to cool down. If you want to gamble bitcoins, casinos would be more fun than getting goxxed.

Bitcoin trading should be conducted by anyone that wants to do so.  There is a rumor it is a peer to peer technology.  Exchange not required.
483  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Crypto Kingdom - 1991 Retro Virtual World(City) on: January 14, 2015, 01:43:59 PM

Writing a history
In the following week, everyone who writes a history of his doings in the first 150 years in the CryptoKingdom, and posts it here, receives nice rewards in the form of gold, gold items, land, money, badges, medals, Honors, promotions, NPC promotions, NPCs, stone, clothes, ancient culture and science, and if there is anything else that could be gifted/bestowed.

Anyone is encouraged to give from his own to the storytellers!

The Opus of Joseph and Asenath.

Joseph of New Liberty is deeply grateful for finding the growing community of the Crypto Kingdom in its earliest days.  Having spent most of his younger years traveling in many lands and on the waters in both military and business pursuits, it was with great delight that the discovery of such a concentration of intelligent, industrious and wonderful people had formed such a cluster around the mysterious and perhaps unique fountains of youth.  The tales of these travelers, and their ultimate choice to settle here is one that speaks to a quality of discernment shared by most in the Crypto Kingdom, which gives this choice of destination great merit for these adventurers were not without many other options, and so it bears telling...

Joseph is the seventh son born to the union of an aging Southern Baron "Roy John" and a Baltic Baroness of the Frederick linage.  As the rules of primogenitor dictate, despite a privileged heritage, no inheritance would be expected to one thus born and so seeking to distinguish himself, gathered his weapons and armor and an innate propensity for military tactics and cleverness to work as a captain of the wall.

After not very long in this vocation, opportunities for distinguishing were swiftly apparent as the free city of his noble birth in the Caucasus borders the Ottoman Empire and fell under seige by their expanding forces.  Whilst patrolling the wall and investigating reports of disturbances in the night, the wall collapsed underneath young Joseph due to the Ottoman's tactic of undermining.  It is perhaps from this formative experience that Joseph has developed a predilection with constructing perimeter defenses and his attention to the Barbican at the Southern extent of the old town.  The collapsing stones crushed many of the invading miners and Joseph, grabbing a pick from one of those fallen ones, made quick deaths for the others and then having no other exit from the collapse, made his way into the Saracen encampment through the tunnel.
 
Due to the suddenly breached city wall, and the ensuing chaos, Joseph emerged from the tunnel and entered the nearest tent only to find that it was filled with captured women from New Liberty and other nearby cities and their eunuch harem guards.  Having the advantage of surprise and one very young quick-witted captive women, who upon seeing him enter created a distraction, Joseph was able to defeat these guards and free the women and himself and took that woman with him on a stolen horse.  Her name is Asenath.

These two, having lost their home city to the siege, adventured Northward to escape the advancing Ottomans, and after traveling through many cities and countries in this land and others, even captaining ships across ocean voyages, often heard rumors of a great land of wisdom and enlightenment that had discovered the secret of eternal youth from two special fountains of water.  Having learned in their extensive travels that the greatest virtues are love and life, (and the first depending on the second of these), they explored far and wide to discover this city of wonders and if possible add their resources to its success in the hopes of making a home there.  The stories of these adventures both together and on their own leading to the discovery of the truth of this are abridged here (with only some brief mentions), it is enough to know that Joseph of New Liberty discovered the Crypto Kingdom during the early times of its foundation, and once established there, sent for his dear friend Asenath.

Upon arrival in CryptoTown Joseph quickly took up residence and began drinking the mystic waters, and worked to establish a noteworthy presence acquiring some decent lands and improving some of these.  With a deep interest in the arts and sciences Joseph set about creating centers for appreciation of these and bringing in many foreign artifacts to populate the places within the town where these can receive the appropriate care, and seeking out any with the aptitude for crafting novel or interesting devices with either practical uses or artistic merits.  

The House of New Liberty:

Among the more interesting members of the household are the tinkers and artisans who having traveled together and now ultimately settled have been busily crafting devices for measurement and discovery learned in their travels.  Some of the works have great utility as well as being mechanically interesting.  Prince Joseph maintains an active letter writing campaign betwixt other men of the sciences and has shared plans of each of these devices and their components and spends many idle hours taking measurements and notes to share with his colleagues afar.  Visitors to the NL city palace are invited to review:


- The Armilliary

A large stationary and sturdy model big enough for a young child to climb inside and recline.  Visitors to Prince Joseph's City Home have seen it in the Piano Nobile front room that looks out upon the Grand Hotel across the boulevard, and younger guests may have had the opportunity to contemplate their own place in the world from within it's rotating spheres.


- Astrolabs
Joseph and Asenath both developed an affinity for these while aboard ship and learned well their use for navigation across the ocean.  These serve a more functional purpose than the armilliary sphere because they are easily portable.  By measuring the relative positions of the stars and planets, position on the open seas can be determined.


- Clockwork timepiece
Spring driven large timepiece.  Some effort has been made by the artisans to make smaller versions but the accuracy falls off sharply, yet the work continues.  If the process is improved sufficiently a clock tower may be commissioned for the city in an appropriate place.


- Spyglass
This metalic tube is affixed with ground and polished glass of exacting proportions such that it can provide a magnified view.  In conjunction with the torquetum it provides for accurate readings of positions of the heavenly bodies.  


- Torquetum
Used to take astronomical measurements of the horizon, equatorial  and elliptic.  Joseph's fascination with the heavens is both practical and intellectual.  In matters of navigation it finds its practical uses, and much of the newer mathematics and methods of calculations are derived from the study of the motions of these lights in the skies.


The Artisans:
The artisans that fabricate these item are primarily contracted workers overseen by New Liberty's own master artisan who coordinates the manufacture under Joseph's supervision and instruction.  Asenath, while taking great interest in the product of these endeavors finds more interest in practical matters, however is adept at putting the finished items to good use.  Asenath also has developed some ciphers based on the mathematics which are used by Joseph in his letter writing campaigns when dealing with novel matters of science.  These letters are sent with the full knowledge that most scientific advancement may be put to military uses and there is no reliable method of sending a message that can not be intercepted.  Encoding is required.

Joseph and Asenath have been building the instruments and encouraging foreign scientists to visit the CryptoTown through their efforts but have been careful to protect the secret of the towns success, the wondrous waters from any in foreign lands that are not worthy of this knowledge.  Their support of music, the arts, and sciences is renown and they are often seen together attending the opening night of each new production in the marvelous Crypto town theaters, or when its performers visit other taverns and clubs, as well as entertained by the chanting of the monks at the Cathedral and often walking the grounds of the university area.  In the interim, as people of letters, their scientific curiosities are advanced by their own experiments which are shared at the irregular meetings of The Circle (a secretive group of nobility with an interest in the sciences within the Crypto Kingdom that gather to share knowledge).  Many of the presentations are fueled by the work of these artisans, who make the devices needed.

In addition to the professional tinker employed in the household, there is an accomplished chirurgeon who since living in Crypto Town has not seen a single sick person and has kept busy with alchemical productions and managed to fabricate distillates of mercury, phosphorous, potash, rudimentary gunpowder (black powder), opium, sulfur and metallic sulfates, arsenic, and some solvents and acids including the sulfuric acid described by Rogers Bacon.  Some experimentation on the addition of metallic sulfates to black powder has resulted in some brilliant pyrotechnics derived from methods used in the far east.

The travels of Joseph and Asenath frequently met with violent opposition, and in one such encounter this method was put to an unusual military use.  Though outnumbered and cut off from any possibility of retreat or escape, their company made use of the superstitions known among their pursuers by spreading rumors of a powerful magician supporting them that could conjure jinn (Arabian evil spirits) to fight for them.  The rumor was then stoked by soaking their campfire logs in copper sulfates and alcohol causing the fires to burn a very bright blue (the blue jinn reputed to be among the eldest).  The enemy lost morale and and battle was avoided with no casualties.

During the time in Crypto Town the New Liberty chirurgeon has been able to reproduce this effect (though its use is confined to the outdoors due to the odors).  A colonnade pavilion was contemplated and designed for the architecture competition for its display and for use as for celebratory events and may yet be constructed one day if a suitable site is selected, likely in the New Liberty Haw, or possibly atop the Prince's city estate or along the walls.  If this fireworks science is further advanced it could also be a visual delight at dusk for special jousting events and other celebrations.

We look forward to hearing more of the past engagements of our fellow nobility here.
484  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Crypto Kingdom - 1991 Retro Virtual World(City) on: January 13, 2015, 07:16:34 PM
The Grand Hotel stock offering GH004

The offering is open for 48 hours.

Prince Joseph will purchase the full allocation entitled to 50 shares, and offer a vote of confidence for the management team of this historic and venerable establishment.

Further, a statement saluting both the business acumen of the Hypothecary Bank and its conservative management approach to risk, is warranted and a corresponding purchase of Bank shares has been made.

Well done all on a crisis averted.
485  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: If a country adopted bitcoin as their national currency, would the US still be a on: January 12, 2015, 02:29:03 PM
Any sovereignty will need to have complete control over an altcoin (which they can't have on the BTC unless they buy it out completely...and why should they ? when they can re create in a day or two) to make it their official currency.

Just my humble opinion.

^^  Ecuador is planning this. ^^
http://www.idgconnect.com/blog-abstract/9010/ecuador-how-new-ecash-affects-crypto-currency


If bitcoin were a national currency, this could also bring it under governance of the IMF.
486  Economy / Economics / Re: The reason that crude oil price crashed on: January 09, 2015, 02:39:35 PM
Indirectly the US are playing the Saudi's who don't give a damn about the oil price

The Saudis do care about sticking it to Iran and by extension Russia. I doubt they need a whole lot of US encouragement.



True enough I discount the Saudis too much, they have a large fund they can rely on so its not a big deal to them economically they can just stick it to their geopolitical interests to the benefit of other countries.

They get less money out of oil and they now have a deficit every year which means they spend more than they make from oil productions and other direct revenues. It is not good for their long term political and diplomatical weight.

We bought their oil, they bought our lie: "deficit spending works"

(is diplomatical a word?  I'd have stopped at the "c")
487  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 09, 2015, 06:53:58 AM
It's time....
They Might Be giants, Tubthumping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf0Amcgxot8
488  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 09, 2015, 01:36:05 AM
Yes, and what I'm saying is there is no cartel. A cartel implies there is some barrier to entry (for example by limited capacity of equipment). There is none here; everyone can mine, and in a protocol that hasn't reached the stage of specialized hardware, the startup costs are low and entry is very rapid. A huge amount of mining would come online within a day or two, and remember your proposal is for all this to be announced a month ahead, so plenty of time to get ready.

You are making a valiant effort smooth, but it is not one you are going to win with this one. He make the same argument with me, in that a mining cartel could "block" all transactions they want. He refused to acknowledge that a non-conforming cartel would simply be removed from the pool, and the network would continue with the remain honest miners. He refuses to understand that the network will continue as long as there are some remaining honest miners to generate blocks.

I refuse to believe that he can not understand this, and instead believe he is simply trying out and testing new FUD against bitcoin here. Some FUD is easily refuted, other FUD requires more discussion and understanding. He has already said that he is working with his government on educating the public on the scam that is bitcoin.

I also get the impression that we are writing a paper for him, that discredits his imagined dystopia.

Sure it could happen, it would just take a massive preponderance of stupidity and/or lack of self interest, or coercion.
If it did happen, I would suspect the coercion first.  Most miners of any significance have plenty of self interest and very little stupidity.
489  Economy / Speculation / Re: sidechains discussion on: January 08, 2015, 02:41:23 PM
A gazillion hashes/second doesn't make the network secure and in fact the number of hashes is completely irrelevant. What matters for the most part is the amount of electricity used and secondarily the cost of the mining equipment. For example 100 watts buys you something on the order of 200 GH/sec of SHA256D. The same 100 watts would buy you perhaps 300 hashes/sec of (to pick one with which I happen to be familiar) CryptoNight. These are approximately equal in value for mining; 200 GH/sec of one algorithm is not 2/3 of a billion times "more secure" than 300 H/s of another. These units are incomparable.

The current bitcoin network is about 150 megawatts. That's something on the order of a 1-2 million PCs using a CPU algorithm. At least until specialized hardware and mining farms developed, a bitcoin forked to a CPU/GPU algorithm would look a lot like a million bitcoin users all mining on their computers. Sounds pretty darn secure to me.

(Is this your "technical objection"?)

You are assuming that 2 million bitcoin users would all rather upgrade to the "rebel" chain and start mining on their own CPUs rather than accept the cartel's proposed change to the protocol.

No I'm assuming that given the choice between software upgrade A, from some foreign source, that modifies the protocol in favor of some other interest group, or software upgrade B, from the same place they got their software in the first place, that protects their own interests, they would choose B.

As for who would mine on their PC, that is simply incentive based. The same 25 BTC are being produced every 10 minutes. If running a little program on your PC allows you to "generate free money from the interwebs" then, sure, many people would do it. Not only many of the existing million or so BTC users but many other as well (historically BTC mining booms have attracted new users -- as expected via greed -- especially during the CPU and GPU eras).

Given 25 BTC being mined every 10 minutes, profit motive will attract people to mine on their computers, mine on the old computer in their attic, mine on their friends' computers, buy new computers, etc. until approximately the same 150 MW is mining as before. As for cloud mining, I suggest you do some industry research to find out how much cloud computing capacity is available and how much it costs. You will find that your assumptions about what is available to be grossly inaccurate, if you think cloud mining is a serious threat (in fact, it would initially be more of a source of honest profit-motivated mining, before becoming uncompetitive).

Please redo your calculation after recognizing that even if only 10% of users get involved, at all, with mining, many of those will get involved on a significantly larger scale. At the low end that means 2-10 computers, or building GPU rigs with a half dozen GPUs (each roughly equivalent to a desktop in capacity), etc. At the high end it means semi-pro to pro-farms with dozens of rigs, initially, even larger over time. Oh, and let's not forget botnets. They'd also join the party, bringing many more computers to grab their share of the "Free Internet Money!"

This is not theoretical; every aspect of what I wrote in the previous two paragraphs has happened during every BTC mining boom and every altcoin mining boom. Your claim that it wouldn't is backed by no historical or other evidence whatsoever.

Let me be clear about this -- I don't expect any of this to happen. I won't happen because everyone -- including the miners -- knows that it could and would happen if a mining cartel tried to exercise the power you claim they have (but actually don't) to fork the protocol in its favor. Therefore it won't happen.

If a mining cartel does indeed fork the protocol in its favor as your model predicts, then I will come back here and eat crow. If it doesn't happen (over some reasonable period of time -- say by the next block having or the one thereafter), will you do the same? As you know I would prefer a substantial bet, but you apparently are either not confident in or insincere about your statements or don't like the idea of receiving free money from a stranger on the internet.

Lets give him odds.  2 for 1.  I'll join in this bet, but lets make it more interesting...  Whichever fails first.  Brazil's Real, or Bitcoin.  First one to zero loses.

Jorge is living in fantasy land with his imagined world where people act against their own interests to support a cartel.
It is feasible to him, because he is doing it himself and has for his whole career as a state worker, believing that Brazil will remain solvent, or not caring that it won't and just enjoying that largess at the expense of those who can't.

Brazil "manages" their economy jerking it back and forth.  Then when it fails, workers will blame the company that leaves due to the state's mismanagement, rather than think about Alexandre Tombini's nonsense.  Sure, bring in Levy from the IMF for just a little more groupthink.

When they are done and have had their way with the poor people of Brazil, Bitcoin will remain here for them.  The Shame on Jorge for trying to convince them otherwise.

Quote from: cooks.com
CROW CASSEROLE   
1/2 dozen crow breasts
1 qt. sauerkraut
1/2 dozen strips bacon
1/3 c. chopped onion
In skillet brown the crow breasts, then place them on a 1 1/2" layer of sauerkraut in bottom of a casserole. Cover each piece of meat with a strip of bacon and sprinkle the onion over them. Cover the breast with another layer of sauerkraut and pour sauerkraut juice over it. Bake two hours in oven heated to 350 degrees.
490  Economy / Economics / Re: The reason that crude oil price crashed on: January 08, 2015, 02:14:33 PM
Saudi Arabia’s influential oil minister Ali Naimi has asserted that the kingdom – the world’s largest exporter of crude – intends to persist with its current strategy of keeping its spigots open to win back market share regardless of how much oil prices fall.
“Whether it goes down to $20, $40, $50, $60, it is irrelevant,” Mr Naimi said in an interview with Middle East Economic Survey late last month.

Mr Naimi is expected to come under increasing pressure from other members of the Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) to row back on its current strategy and agree to holding an emergency meeting of the cartel ahead of its next scheduled gathering in the summer.
Opinions differ among the 12 members of Opec over whether the decision to keep the group’s quota of 30m barrels per day (bpd) of crude unchanged in November was the correct course of action given the risks this now poses to their economies.

Those pressuring Naimi...  What are they expecting?  That the Saudis should influence pricing so that US fracking is profitable?

People are going to see conspiracies everywhere no matter what.  If they "do nothing" they are conspiring to "hurt the Russians", if they "manipulate prices up" they are supporting the US.  So no matter what happens, it is certainly going to be the fault of the USA.
491  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Liberty Dollar Sentencing scheduled on: January 07, 2015, 08:58:40 AM
"The Justice Department asserted that von NotHaus was placing gold, and silver coins, along with precious metals currency into circulation with the purpose of mixing them “into the current money of the United States.”. In short, the government accused von NotHaus of counterfeiting."
http://libertycrier.com/bernard-von-nothaus-architect-liberty-dollar-sentenced/

I've seen the video where this fellow passed a Liberty Dollar off to an unsuspecting street vendor as money. Apparently, doing so is counterfeiting. Where is this injustice you claim? If you don't like the law, change it. OP's hyperbolic anti-government ranting is childish, not to mention dishonest.

1) It is money, just as much as anything used in trade is money.  It is not "current money" which is a term of art with a special meaning.  It means specifically the current set of bills and coins issued by the government.
2) There is no law against trading a piece of silver for a hot dog.  Is it also illegal to be circulating hot dogs?  The prosecution fabricated both law and facts to get the guilty verdict because of the vast store of silver and gold they hoped to seize.  This is a case of attempted government theft, only partially averted.
3) They hoped to claim fraud by showing that he didn't have the backing for all the gold and silver warehouse receipts, showing up in a sedan to take out what was claimed to be many tons of gold and silver (it was in fact precisely that and there was no fraud).
4) Your evidence for it being illegal is the government's claim that it is illegal rather than either the law or the facts?  By this logic everyone is guilty as soon as they are accused?
5) Change what law?  None of this was illegal.  It was a spurious claim made by government officials hoping to use the forfeiture laws to line their pockets.  At the sentencing hearing the former head of enforcement for the US Govt for Forfeiture testified ON BEHALF OF THE LIBERTY DOLLAR against the prosecution.  The prosecutors in this case here belong in jail for their use of government force to attempt to ruin the life and reputation of one of America's great living heroes for monetary freedom and liberty.

You sir, are simply uninformed and parroting the government's shit storm.  
492  Economy / Speculation / Re: sidechains discussion on: January 07, 2015, 08:48:57 AM
You see, if power was distributed over many thousands of independent miners, all such lists would have thousads names
This statement is logically false.

I forgot the word 'evenly' before 'distributed'.   (I used it elsewhere when saying that same condition.)
Is that why you did not understand the logic?

I did understand the so called logic, but it was false.

It is false because it assumes all such lists are showing power, but in fact they all show something else, generally pools. I've never seen a "mining power list," have you?

Even with a relatively small number of pools you can still have power distributed over many thousands (or even more) independent miners, because those miners are able to move their hash rate. No pool can be confident of maintaining a given share because hash power can shift and new pools can be created.

In fact this was not the case with ghash since much of their mining was their own equipment.

You presume ghash miners are used on it's own pool. It's a fair assumption, but it might behoove ghash to make a deal with other pools for no fee mining in the interest of decentralization.

True its a poor assumption because ghash.io miners are in fact split between several pools.  
This is a different layer of centralization (they can suddenly move them to their own pool, for example).

I mentioned a few of the layers of centralization in my previous post.
-ASIC makers
-Miners
-Pools
-Devs
Each of these are too centralized by some measures.  (the world of bitcoin is still kinda small).

The silly thing that Jorge does is assume that not only will these all perpetually get worse (instead by most evidence they are trending toward better), but that it will be fatal and are fated to be so.  There is not any evidence for his assumption, it appears to simply be prejudicial.  He started here with it and it may be his job to perpetuate it since he does work for the State.
493  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Crypto Kingdom - 1991 Retro Virtual World(City) on: January 07, 2015, 07:44:29 AM
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494  Economy / Speculation / Re: sidechains discussion on: January 06, 2015, 10:08:44 PM
The fundamental issue is that the centralization, which is inherent in Bitcoin, is incredibly minuscule when compared to EVERY OTHER FORM OF MONEY with its almost nonexistent barrier to entry.  It is the reason many of us like it.  Governments are busy trying to set up barriers for people to be their own banks with Bitcoin and force people to use the current banking cartels, but ultimately it is a bit difficult to prevent so long as it is easy to download and run a node..

I fully agree that the banking sector is an oligopoly.  And the same is true of the economy in general.  And centraliaztion of the economy invariably results in centralization of political power and collapse of the democracy.

But I do not agree that bitcoin is somehow different from banks. Because:

* The same economic process that created the banking oligopoly has already created a mining oligopoly; namely, the big fish grows faster than the smal fish, and may even eat it.
See 1

* The mechanisms that are supposed to protect the bitcoin users and the protocol from abuse by the dominating cartel do not work:
See 2
** Acting in its self-interest, the cartel will be careful not to destroy its market, but will try to maximize its gain in the long term;

** The cartel will charge monopoly-level prices and provide monopoly-quality service;
See 1

** Users who object to the cartel have no alternative except to do without the service, or to use a much inferior one;
See 2

** For that reason, most users just accept the cartel as a fact of nature, and even try to be friends with it;

** For that reason, the cartel can define and change its terms of service, and not even a supermajority of the users can stop them;

** New providers (banks or miners) who want to enter the market and survive must submit to the cartel;
See 2

** Therefore, unhappy users may take their money to another bank or miner, but cannot break free of the cartel's power;

And so on.

By the way, a majority cartel could, by following the same script outlined in my reddit post, also undo the Bitstamp heist.  All it needs to do is block withdrawals from that address (which it can do immediately and unilaterally, by its veto power), and then force the users to upgrade to a version of the software that includes a built-in table of exceptions: transactions that violate the normal rules, but should be considered valid anyway.  For the time being, that table would have only one transaction, moving those 18'000 coins from the thief's address to the new Bitstamp's address.  The input would have 'FuckAllThieves' as the signature; which of course is not valid for that address, but the exception table will override that. 

This change to the protocol will surely cause more revolt among the fundamentalist users than the mere extension of the reward schedule.  On the other hand, it would be much easier to justify to the general users, since it would undo what is universally viewed as a crime, redress the loss of the victims, and create a powerful deterrent of future bitcoin thefts.  In fact, this hack will probably make bitcoins more valuable, increase adoption, appease hostile governments, etc. etc..  And the non-ideological users are already used to the banks doing that sort of thing.

And you can see how this will end.

The fact is, you do not really own your bitcoins, even if you are the only person who knows their private keys. Since bitcoins cannot exist outside the blockchain, they are actually owned by the miners.  Your bitcoins will stay or move only if and where the miners are willing to keep or move them.  At present, the miners will only move coins  if they get a transaction request with the proper signature.  However, if a majoritary subset of the miners agrees to do something else, they will have the power to force the users to accept it -- as long as it is less harmful to the general user than being cut off from the service.

Just like them banks.

It seems your opinion is that there is no need for bitcoin and that banks and arbitrary enforcements based on claims of thefts conducted by centralized controls of wealth ledgers are the way to go.
This is fine for you.  Others may want alternatives to this to exist in the world and use each type of wealth unit for its purpose.

Generally, we disagree on most everything in this post, with especially your assumptions about what future behaviors will occur.  These things haven't happened yet.  With vigilance and individual action, these things may never happen because it is done in the open, and not in secret banking ledgers, as pointed out previously in my last post to you (which you apparently ignored).


1Certain of the matters discussed in this post are about future performance and constitute “forward-looking statements” within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.
Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially from those anticipated. Such statements are based on the poster's beliefs as well as assumptions made. When used herein, the words “anticipate,” “intend,” “estimate,” "may," “believe,” “expect,” “plan,” “should,” “hypothetical,” “potential,” “forecast,” “project,” variations of such words and similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements. Factors that may cause actual results to differ are often presented with the forward-looking statements themselves.

2They have worked so far.  Check the block chain to see if it is still incrementing.  Since your assertion is contrary to established fact, please show evidence.
495  Economy / Economics / Re: The reason that crude oil price crashed on: January 06, 2015, 02:49:00 PM
The question is that now that Crude is at 50 dollars a barrel where do we find support and what plays are the best for buying stock in
Either way this is a far cry from 200 dollar oil then 100 dollar oil
When it starts moving again upwards as new production etc is stopped and fracking gets owned for a while we might get some nice returns there.
Either way stock pain is coming in energy, manufacturing or companies with large oil inputs will get a boost from this so a few ways to play the stock market.

Can anyone mention any (fracking) stocks they would be buying now?

I'd be looking at the other end, rather than extraction.  Oil transportation and refining (and use).
Cheap oil will be around for a while, usage will increase, so pipelines, refining, and big users like airlines, etc.
496  Economy / Speculation / Re: sidechains discussion on: January 06, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
Aww, give him a break, it is a public Uni, so government payroll and in a country arguably even more socialist than the US.  It is a handicap difficult for most to overcome, at least until they are tenured.
We can't expect him to even nibble at the hand that feeds him.  Even though the criticisms are fairly speculative, at least he is looking at it.

I am already tenured, actually, so I could badmouth the government at will (which in fact I do) with no risk.  

But of course I can't expect someone who is invested in bitcoin to admit that its future is in danger.  Wink

Great.  Everyone has expectations.   You should be able to look deeper too.  Get past these little issues.
The centralization of the pooling is only one layer of the mask.  There is also centralization of the mining, and centralization of ASIC production, core dev centralization.

Each layer is a problem and has a risk of cartelling.  The Nash equilibrium inherent in the incentive structure doesn't prevent any centralization, it merely makes it less likely, given merely economic incentives.
If Bitcoin ever becomes meaningful enough to threaten any of the real power structures in play, the game changes.

So your critique is pretty thin, we're not only aware of the issues, some of us get pretty noisy when one of them gets amplified.  This is one of the ways that the risks are addressed.   Because the block chain is right out in the open, so much of this is visible and addressable as it happens.  

The fundamental issue is that the centralization that concerns you, and which is inherent in Bitcoin, is incredibly minuscule when compared to EVERY OTHER FORM OF MONEY with its almost nonexistent barrier to entry.  It is the reason many of us like it.  Governments are busy trying to set up barriers for people to be their own banks with Bitcoin and force people to use the current banking cartels, but ultimately it is a bit difficult to prevent so long as it is easy to download and run a node.

You are worried that Bitcoin is not better at the thing that it happens to be pretty good at, such that it beats every other choice?

The "perfect" will always be the enemy of the "good".
We'd all like perfect, but if you wait for it, you miss what's good.
497  Economy / Speculation / Re: sidechains discussion on: January 06, 2015, 05:03:19 AM
Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.
Aww, give him a break, it is a public Uni, so government payroll and in a country arguably even more socialist than the US.  It is a handicap difficult for most to overcome, at least until they are tenured.
We can't expect him to even nibble at the hand that feeds him.  Even though the criticisms are fairly speculative, at least he is looking at it.
498  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Crypto Kingdom - 1991 Retro Virtual World(City) on: January 05, 2015, 07:50:04 PM
Mid-length bond, 90 real-days

1@70
499  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 05, 2015, 06:01:31 PM
nice quote Marc Andreessen

Paraphrasing (Bitcoin's value is it's blockchain not the BTC)

My fundamental issue with SC is they don't secure the value just the BTC. SC offer economic hackers a way to steal that value.

It's economic ignorance to believe the value in the blockchain is inherent.
I've been saying this for a long time now. The Blockchain will be the only aspect of Bitcoin that survives.

The theory of right angles also survived the builders of house in which it was first used.  In a long enough time frame, the implementation must fall ahead of the knowledge.  This is a less profound observation than you might imagine.

That "survives" may be centuries away, or weeks, depending on how things get hacked up.
500  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 05, 2015, 11:28:24 AM
if I controlled enough hashing power I'd be manipulating the flow of BTC in and out trying to disturb a fixed market equilibrium buying low and converting back,

Please explain how you would do that.
Presumably he refers to sidechains.pdf section 6.1 which describes the forgeability during the contest period by sufficient proof of work via mining.

Quote from: sidechains.pdf
6.1 Hashpower attack resistance
The main thrust of this paper surrounds two-way peg using SPV proofs, which are forgeable by a 51%-majority and blockable by however much hashpower is needed to build a sufficiently-long proof during the transfer’s contest period. (There is a tradeoff on this latter point — if 33% hashpower can block a proof, then 67% is needed to successfully use a false one, and so on.)
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