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1  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 01:57:16 PM
If you don't have inflation, you have deflation, which means people with "money" will never have to work.

PeterSchiff, are you an adherent of the Labour Theory of Value by any chance?

How much money we make has very little to do with how much we work.  Our ability to make money is almost entirely a result of the capital we have access to, and you are no exception to that.  Like it or not, that is simply how a modern free economy works.

I make 100 times more money per hour than an Indian rice farmer.  Is this because I work 100 times harder than him? Of course not, in fact he probably works a hell of a lot harder than me. Is it because I am more intelligent? I doubt it, human beings have roughly the same cognitive skills regardless of their culture and technological state. 

It is simply because I have access to:

* Financial capital - Assets that I inherited, assets my employer allows me to use, etc.
* Social capital - I know people who can help me accessing high paying jobs.
* Information capital - My education, my superior internet access, etc.
* Political capital - if the Indian rice farmer decided to move to Europe and compete with me, the friendly government I am living under would point a gun to his head and kindly ask him to return.
* Cultural capital - I was brought up to think innovatively and independently.

...and the rice farmer doesn't.

So if you think it's wrong to make money from capital and that we should all just be making money from work alone, we would probably all end up living like Indian rice farmers.  Are you prepared to do that? No? Who is the real hypocrite then? Smiley


PS. Bitcoin will give the Indian rice farmer access to capital that was so far withheld from him by the banking elites.



I also don't agree with inheritance or old money. In an ideal world we would all start equal, not benefit only because your parents or family are rich. You make your own luck... It goes against equality and worth.

Most of us have had an easier start to our life than your Indian Rice Farmer, and it's unrealistic to think that we in the western world are really interested in sharing our wealth.

But to answer your question, if this is the start of something new, then let's try and be better, not worse. If anyone thinks they deserve to be rich because they mined bit coins early on, then that person is seriously full of shit.

You're a hypocrite because you're justifying why you should be rich for contributing very little. You mined cause you're greedy, just a geek or both. Now you're saying you deserve to be rich, or that you're only into BitCoins because of the monetary revolution.

OMFG, can you hear yourselves. Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites!!!

I'd like to hear at least some of you admit that you're a greedy mofo in it only for it's speculative value and that you don't give a shit about the rest.
Amen
2  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 01:39:42 PM


Currency backed by gold, not an illusion. Currency backed by oil, not an illusion. In the future, perhaps we can have currency backed by energy. Aka, energy options, and I don't mean backed by spent energy, like BitCoins.



Bitcoins are not spent energy. Their value comes from the amount of energy required to mine the next block.

First of all, the value of a BitCoin is rather more speculative than that. Secondly, when the last of block is mined, then what, the value of the energy used to verify transactions, that sounds like a cost, not a value.

How about this, Petrol coins. To create a petrol coin, you must burn one liter of petrol. Over time the cost of creation goes up, and you must burn more and more petrol to create a coin. Now you're saying the value of the current coin is based on how much petrol you need to create the next coin. I say, there must be a system that requires no burning of petrol, cause it's bad for the environment. But here's the killer, if I want to redeem my coin for petrol, I spent almost as much petrol making the coin as it's worth. So I get 1 litre of petrol instead of 2. Brilliant.
3  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 01:25:05 PM
Currency backed by gold, not an illusion. Currency backed by oil, not an illusion.

Is the value of gold not an illusion? Is the value of oil not an illusion?

Any value is an illusion. As long as that value can be applied long term, stored, and is limited in supply, it just makes the process of creating a price easier Wink


These things have real value, in today's society, oil more so than gold. In fact our entire economic system is tied to oil prices. Unfortunately we are running out of oil, quickly, so perhaps generic energy options will work better.
4  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 01:11:20 PM
Please don't tell me there are actually some individuals complaining about an "unfair distribution" of Bitcoins... surely such posts are jokes?

Personally, I hope the early adopters of what could be an immensely revolutionary new monetary system make astronomical profits. I can't think of anything more "fair" than for those who took the earliest risks with Bitcoins to enjoy lavish gains from its success, should it occur.

Cheers to pioneers!

Yeah, such risks they took, pales in comparison to when I was stationed in Kosovo, or when I took time off work for my startup. What great pioneers they were, leaving their computers on for 24 hours a day, never knowing if their CPU or GPU would overheat.

Hypocrites Smiley

nothing more than sour grapes

lol, I keep seeing that comment Smiley, I'm willing to discuss, and perhaps be persuaded, but so far you're doing a terrible job. Geeks gone greedy, hiding behind some noble notion to change the worlds monetary system.
5  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 01:03:59 PM

Because the current value of a BitCoin is an illusion, but not if we all buy into it...

Every currency value is an illusion until the people buy into it...what exactly is your point?

You just made it for me. But let me spell it out, if this scheme is gonna take off, change the world and create uber rich BitCoin pioneers, we "all" need to buy into it, right now only a few geeks have bought into it.

Currency backed by gold, not an illusion. Currency backed by oil, not an illusion. In the future, perhaps we can have currency backed by energy. Aka, energy options, and I don't mean backed by spent energy, like BitCoins.

6  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 12:45:32 PM
If you don't have inflation, you have deflation, which means people with "money" will never have to work.

do they have to now? multimillionaires don't exist today?

you don't have to play btc game if you think that it is not fair... you don't want to have .02 btc for free, but explain why anyone should give any more of free money to anybody?



Because the current value of a BitCoin is an illusion, but not if we all buy into it...
7  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 11:41:06 AM
What stops a large organization or government from simply starting an alternative "BitCoin" and market the shit out of it, making BitCoin a thing of the past. And why don't they, because BitCoins are still relatively harmless (think tax evation, state tax, terrorism (just for marketing purposes), etc). I think once there is a crack, BitCoins will never recover.

So because we've been born into an unbalanced sharing of wealth, this somehow makes it OK?HuhHuh WTF!!  If it ain't about greed, then share your BitCoin wealth amongst ordinary people and get them involved in the market place. This should be an enabling technology, not an investment opportunity nor a pyramid scheme.

What stops a large entity from competing with Bitcoin? Nothing. But remember that Bitcoin is not governed by anyone. That creates a level of trust unreachable by any centralized organization.

I'm not saying that unbalanced distribution of wealth is ok. It has simply been pointed out that Bitcoin's wealth distribution is nothing new. I kindly ask again - is there a better practical alternative of introducing new currency without this injustice inherently build into it?


Yes there is, you peg it against gold.
There is an established 'early adopter' problem with a gold standard as well.

Quote
Or, you start BitTulip (BitCoin 2.0), and you make it much harder and slower to produce currency from the onset (barely worth it), and most important of all, you introduce INFLATION into the system to promote spending, not hoarding, and you never cap the total amount of BitCoins that can be produced. If you don't have inflation, you have deflation, which means people with "money" will never have to work.
Now I know that you are not the real Peter Schiff, because he would have never written the above paragraph.


I must agree with you there Smiley.

Inflation is key, whether or not Peter would agree.
8  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 17, 2011, 11:32:23 AM
Please don't tell me there are actually some individuals complaining about an "unfair distribution" of Bitcoins... surely such posts are jokes?

Personally, I hope the early adopters of what could be an immensely revolutionary new monetary system make astronomical profits. I can't think of anything more "fair" than for those who took the earliest risks with Bitcoins to enjoy lavish gains from its success, should it occur.

Cheers to pioneers!

Yeah, such risks they took, pales in comparison to when I was stationed in Kosovo, or when I took time off work for my startup. What great pioneers they were, leaving their computers on for 24 hours a day, never knowing if their CPU or GPU would overheat.

Hypocrites Smiley
9  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 11:35:49 PM
What stops a large organization or government from simply starting an alternative "BitCoin" and market the shit out of it, making BitCoin a thing of the past. And why don't they, because BitCoins are still relatively harmless (think tax evation, state tax, terrorism (just for marketing purposes), etc). I think once there is a crack, BitCoins will never recover.

So because we've been born into an unbalanced sharing of wealth, this somehow makes it OK?HuhHuh WTF!!  If it ain't about greed, then share your BitCoin wealth amongst ordinary people and get them involved in the market place. This should be an enabling technology, not an investment opportunity nor a pyramid scheme.

What stops a large entity from competing with Bitcoin? Nothing. But remember that Bitcoin is not governed by anyone. That creates a level of trust unreachable by any centralized organization.

I'm not saying that unbalanced distribution of wealth is ok. It has simply been pointed out that Bitcoin's wealth distribution is nothing new. I kindly ask again - is there a better practical alternative of introducing new currency without this injustice inherently build into it?


Yes there is, you peg it against gold.
Or, you start BitTulip (BitCoin 2.0), and you make it much harder and slower to produce currency from the onset (barely worth it), and most important of all, you introduce INFLATION into the system to promote spending, not hoarding, and you never cap the total amount of BitCoins that can be produced. If you don't have inflation, you have deflation, which means people with "money" will never have to work.
10  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 11:22:54 PM

So because we've been born into an unbalanced sharing of wealth, this somehow makes it OK?HuhHuh WTF!!  If it ain't about greed, then share your BitCoin wealth amongst ordinary people and get them involved in the market place. This should be an enabling technology, not an investment opportunity nor a pyramid scheme.



Are you aware of the Bitcoin faucet?


Yes, they offered me about 14c for free in exchange for my gmail login. It seemed like a bad deal. In fact there's not a whole lot I will do for 14c.
11  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 10:24:29 PM
I agree, I too want a monetary revolution. But this just stinks of greed, and the model is flawed due to the initial unbalanced sharing of wealth. As a principle, I will not buy any BitTulips

This is my concern too. It is often explained here as high profit associated with high initial risk taken by early adopters, but somehow I don't buy it.

you were born into a unbalanced sharing of wealth. get over it.

Good point, sir. Have a tip.
Also, are there any practical models that actually promote balanced sharing of wealth?

What stops a large organization or government from simply starting an alternative "BitCoin" and market the shit out of it, making BitCoin a thing of the past. And why don't they, because BitCoins are still relatively harmless (think tax evation, state tax, terrorism (just for marketing purposes), etc). I think once there is a crack, BitCoins will never recover.

So because we've been born into an unbalanced sharing of wealth, this somehow makes it OK?HuhHuh WTF!!  If it ain't about greed, then share your BitCoin wealth amongst ordinary people and get them involved in the market place. This should be an enabling technology, not an investment opportunity nor a pyramid scheme.

12  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 09:03:27 PM
Quote
It's like inheriting some penny stocks from you uncle, next thing you know they shoot up in value, not because of your brilliance as an investor obviously, but because of dumb luck, so you figure, well since they are going up, they must be going up some more, after all there are only so many of them, and everybody wants them because, well everybody else wants them.

You gotta get off the roller-coaster sooner or later, so when are you gonna get off. What's you number?

The problem is that most of these people don't look at it this way.  They look at it from the perspective of being part of something revolutionary, and game changing.

I don't want 60k usd out of this, I want to see the foundations of freedom in this world change <-- that is the greater mind set of the current person with large btc holding.


I agree, I too want a monetary revolution. But this just stinks of greed, and the model is flawed due to the initial unbalanced sharing of wealth. As a principle, I will not buy any BitTulips
13  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 05:09:08 PM
Quote
I have done my research, and conclusion is, it's gonna crash as soon as one of the Hoarders get's scared, and dumps his BitCoins on the exchange. I love the idea, but it reminds me to much of a time when many of my friends got into these "pyramid schemes" selling various crap. And let me just say, pyramid schemes work, when we all buy into them...

the question is, why would a hoarder get 'scared'? at this point the hoarders are mostly people who mined EARLY -- ie: their investment isn't substantial in most cases.


Why? Look, if you mined early, it may not be a substantial investment, but that has nothing to do with anything. Let's take an example, let's say I mined early and got an easy 10,000 BitCoins. When I mined it, it wasn't worth much, and cost me "nothing". So far so good. Today, however, those 10,000 BitCoins are worth say, in excess of 60,000$. That's 60,000$, out of "nothing", if you SELL, TODAY. So far so good, but have you ever played the stock market, or FX, or invested in commodities? Well, even these established markets peak and crash.

So how do you feel when there's a security flaw discovered, or everyone moves on to the next great thing, or demand just falls because you can only buy crap, or some kind of negative government interaction takes place and your BitCoins starts tanking in value. Are you okay with losing 60,000$, just because the money was "free".

It's like inheriting some penny stocks from you uncle, next thing you know they shoot up in value, not because of your brilliance as an investor obviously, but because of dumb luck, so you figure, well since they are going up, they must be going up some more, after all there are only so many of them, and everybody wants them because, well everybody else wants them.

You gotta get off the roller-coaster sooner or later, so when are you gonna get off. What's you number?
14  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 16, 2011, 11:04:46 AM
"The Geeks will inherit the earth" have just turned into, "Geeks are the new aristocracy", and this is why:

Who owns BitCoins.. There must be some individuals hoarding a large amount, and I wish I was one them. If BitCoins were universally adopted, a BitCoin may well be worth 10,000$, in fact it would probably be worth a whole lot more. On top of that we would have deflation, due to no more BitCoins being generated, ever, and so the value would increase further. If there are 1 Billion people who may adopt this system, and 21 Million BitCoins, you'd be very fortunate (and rich) to own just a single BitCoin. Owning a single BitCoin may be the equivalent of being a multi millionaire today. Having a whopping 1000 BitCoins would rival Gates in his glory days.

The BitCoin system, is perfect, and perfectly flawed. I think we've just discovered how to turn Freetards into Bankers, our new financial overlords.

I have done my research, and conclusion is, it's gonna crash as soon as one of the Hoarders get's scared, and dumps his BitCoins on the exchange. I love the idea, but it reminds me to much of a time when many of my friends got into these "pyramid schemes" selling various crap. And let me just say, pyramid schemes work, when we all buy into them...

I think I will hold out for the next BitCoin, we can probably just reuse the software, it's open source right Wink, be an early adapter, promoter and make my exit.

Good luck to all you scammers, you don't deserve the money.

You can be whatever "adapter" you want, but I am early adopter and ain't going anywhere  Grin

Ignoring your Asperger like comment on my typo Smiley; Good job getting in early mate. So how did you hear about BitCoin (all of you early adopters)?
15  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: May 14, 2011, 01:47:48 PM
"The Geeks will inherit the earth" have just turned into, "Geeks are the new aristocracy", and this is why:

Who owns BitCoins.. There must be some individuals hoarding a large amount, and I wish I was one them. If BitCoins were universally adopted, a BitCoin may well be worth 10,000$, in fact it would probably be worth a whole lot more. On top of that we would have deflation, due to no more BitCoins being generated, ever, and so the value would increase further. If there are 1 Billion people who may adopt this system, and 21 Million BitCoins, you'd be very fortunate (and rich) to own just a single BitCoin. Owning a single BitCoin may be the equivalent of being a multi millionaire today. Having a whopping 1000 BitCoins would rival Gates in his glory days.

The BitCoin system, is perfect, and perfectly flawed. I think we've just discovered how to turn Freetards into Bankers, our new financial overlords.

I have done my research, and conclusion is, it's gonna crash as soon as one of the Hoarders get's scared, and dumps his BitCoins on the exchange. I love the idea, but it reminds me to much of a time when many of my friends got into these "pyramid schemes" selling various crap. And let me just say, pyramid schemes work, when we all buy into them...

I think I will hold out for the next BitCoin, we can probably just reuse the software, it's open source right Wink, be an early adapter, promoter and make my exit.

Good luck to all you scammers, you don't deserve the money.
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