When the site is called provably fair but no one can make sure that it is provably enough except they are expert or most people tell their experience for the site.
Provably fair are made by human and there will be a chance for human error so just considering this before make a real deposit
Well, it's true that programmers can make errors while programming a provably fair system, but in reality this would get discovered pretty fast. It's really not that hard to check if the provably fair system is working correctly and people should stop perpetuating that ' it's too hard to check this yourself '. Just pick a casino that has had its provably fair algorithm audited on this forum for example, there are threads for the big gambling sites. Best way to go is to choose a provably fair system which uses the uniform way that the major sites are going with. Server seed - client seed - nonce is always a safe bet. |
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I've noticed a lot of websites recently who are using the guise of provably fairness to legitimize themselves but in fact since educating myself about how it all actually works, fall into one of the subpar categories Rhaver was mentioning. This should definitely be brought to light as me a few weeks ago would have never noticed anything
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Would love to see some more articles from the CGF. You have brought out some quality stuff in the past.
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You are saying that some sites don't have the nonce when calculating the provably fair outcome
[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]
However if its just the server seed hash and client seed, and if both of those are constant won't the roll be exactly the same everytime.
In this case I assume the server seed hash keeps changing, while client seed stays the same. In that case since the noonce always starts at 1, won't it be exactly the same situation.
Since the casino already knows what the nonce will be and they know their server seed. And they assume "client seed" won't get changed.
Moment you change the client seed (Yourself and not through sites choice) you have made the decision of what all the next outcomes will be. This is due to an added nonce. If you don't have the nonce you are forced to change your client seed every single time. |
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Looks like Rhaver is on board!
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A lot of websites miss the nonce aspect. This in turn creates an unfair environment and a major opportunity to rig events. Unless the user changes their client seed EVERY round this case is not fair. They will also have to in turn engage users to verify bets one by one to ensure their fairness. This isn't what anyone (Lets be realistic) does and leaves the vast majority of people open to being scammed. If an operator notices you are not changing your client seed EVERY bet they are able to change the outcome of rolls.
I think it's a bit too harsh to call it "fake" provably fair, as without a nonce it is still provably fair -- just perhaps suboptimal from a users point of view. But if you trust the client (e.g. you've audited a static version, or using some 3rd party client you trust) it's actually possibly better. There have been a bunch of casinos though with "fake provably fair", the biggest offender I remember was the old 999dice which put a "betId" (instead of a nonce) in the preimage, which allowed them to 100% control the outcome. And then there's been dozens of sites with "fake" provably fair systems (pretty much 99% of all multiplayer gambling games that come out, they screw up the provably fair and it's not actually provably fair). I would be trying to categorize sites (from best to worst): * Trustless * Provably fair (follows best practices) * Provably fair (warning: suboptimal, not practical for human verification) * Not Provably Fair (game design makes provably fair impractical) * Not Provably Fair (for no good reason) * Fake Provably Fair (claims to be provably fair, but isn't) Awesome that your on board Rhaver, you're one of the smartest guys in the Bitcoin gambling community. I hope to see you develop this. |
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Are you guys kidding? There's no real money casinos with proper dicing like how it's done on Bitcoin. Bitcoin has such a unique approach. Check out the sites on www.dicesites.com, they're the proper dice sites I'm talking about - Not dicing that's implemented currently in real life casinos etc. It's a very different concept! |
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Probably fair gives an added trust or makes the particular gambling website more legitimate in comparison to other gambling websites. Another thing is based on the house edge allocated as well the platform on which the event has been developed too makes it provably fair.
Problem is not all sites that say they are provably fair are really provably fair. There are some that just throw around the words and not really back up what they are saying. It's common to see especially with new casinos and fly by night ones. There should really be a body that would handle these claims and check for their authenticity, Some even have their own system and saying it is provably fair but in fact it is not up to standards. I think there is some group that review if the site is actually implementing provably fair games, and wheneve a site is found lying about it, they were bashed and have negative feed back on its rating, telling or warning gambles to stay away from those cheating site. Provably is really needed so that we ca be sure that the site is not rigging the game. Yeh that's the crypto gambling foundation. www.cryptogambling.org |
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Are you guys planning on wearing these T-shirts of Primedice in public?
Generally I got some Bitcoin gear like posters and tshirts and such but I usually avoid wearing it in public to avoid being targetted and robbed.
Since Primedice ONLY accepts BTC, you might become a target who "Has loads of BTC".
Haha people would just think it's a new brand! I'd definitely rep a free t shirts. I have a massive collection of free shirts I've picked up over the years. They're the best, it's always fun to answer questions about them. |
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What are going to be some new initiatives of the foundation. It's cool to see Aengus announcing you'll be tidying up whether sites are actually fair or not.
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Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..
Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys. By the looks of it Stunna and Edward (Aengus?) are running it It looks like Bustabit is also involved. The 4 (Primedice, Bustabit, Stake & Bustadice) biggest provably fair gaming sites... |
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Sounds fair, best of luck with helping improve Bitcoin. I'm really loving the whole initiative from the Gaming Foundation. You guys rock. Just don't get power hungry..
Likewise. Who's currently on the board? Looking forward to seeing more from you guys. |
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Always redirect to this article when trying to explain provably fair and why I choose to play dice games. People think I'm weird.
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Judging by statistics on websites like dicesites.com websites are doing 10's of million of dollars a week in volume in dicing. Do you think this could translate to the real money market. Dicing obviously is giving all other casino games a run for their money being the most popular by far.
I heard Primedice might be working on it... It could be rumoured around their possible ICO post?
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When the site is called provably fair but no one can make sure that it is provably enough except they are expert or most people tell their experience for the site.
Provably fair are made by human and there will be a chance for human error so just considering this before make a real deposit
The thing is provably fair can be audited by anyone. There's a public ledger of bets. Someone can run a script and easily check for everyone else if there are any unfair bets made. |
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Sad to see a lot of websites like Bitstarz still being used despite being brought to light they aren't fair & also abuse terms etc.
Spread this word guys, sites which put the effort in should only be used, they will not CHEAT you of your money.
No need to spread words. They are already well known for being that. Why does there are user that still choosing to play on untrusted/unknown reputation gambling site while there are a lot of trusted gambling site existing which is already listed on this forum. I will name some of them, FortuneJack, Primedice , Bitsler, Nitrogensports, OneHash and many more. Just search for the forum for the list of active gambling site so that you will be always be guided. That's pretty much what the Crypto Gambling Foundation is trying to establish - A decentralized body of people who believe in fairness and list all relevant sites. Waiting for more sites to be added, lets see. |
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Bitcoin websites are now setting the benchmark, cya fiat
That's the best part haha When did you start at Primedice? |
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Satoshibet used to be a pretty awesome site, they used pretty dodgey provably fair though with client seed needing to be changed every other time.
Bitsler has some cool games.
But as far as full Casinos go I'd definitely have to say Stake.com
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