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2001  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
Why BTC is the primary liquidity for SC? What prevent people to buy the SC on the open market with fiat?
It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.
2002  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: is there anything called browser mining?! on: October 24, 2014, 05:32:11 PM
Be careful of web based programs. Many have been created as malware.
2003  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 05:27:06 PM
I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
2004  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 05:10:28 PM

miners could abandon my SC that offers perfect anonymity.  and that would be for another SC that takes my SC  with perfect anonymity and adds even better functionality on top of that.  then i'd have to move my SC coins yet again!  what a hassle and potential security risk.

if the SC tech is in fact better, BTC hodlers would have to defect.  as they defect, miners would have to follow.  no?

money always seeks the place that treats it best.
There's the rub. They need to create some magic that independently converts coins back and forth. BTC must remain legacy for this scheme to work and must be encoded into the protocol. Of course anything could happen, but preserving BTC legacy cold storage must be ensured. It may become cumbersome and slow. Perhaps they will change their protocol to deny Bitcoin transactions except for conversion and it takes a month, but all Bitcoins must be accounted for in the end.
2005  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 05:03:38 PM
so much weird bs fakeness on Huobi. 4k coins sold in 8x 500 blocks, but they only sell when a 500 buy block appears. order book ends up the same but volume goes way up.

and now it's just gone full retard

Looks like their fake volume bot is broken  Grin
A clash of bots.
2006  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gavin Andresen Proposes Bitcoin Hard Fork to Address Network Scalability on: October 24, 2014, 04:58:34 PM
For the people who think exponential growth is NOT a good model for this, I'd like to point out something.... 

Quote
640k ought to be enough for anybody.  -- Bill Gates

Accusing Satoshi of pulling a Bill Gates when he put in the 7 TPS cap is funny and all that, but it simply doesn't map to the concept of exponential growth very well.  It does, however, illustrate what I was talking about when I said that most human minds are simply not wired to register it adequately.
Yo Dawg, I hear you like side chains so I put side chains inside your side chains. Now you have 77TPS.
2007  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 04:39:19 PM
I still haven't heard a good excuse for core dev concentration in one for profit company other than "trust us".

These are two perfectly good reasons and really the only reasons you need:
1)  open source code
2)  consensus execution of that code by miners voting with their processing power

Quote
Again,  why wouldn't we expect a SC fork of bitcoin with perfect anonymity to take over?  

This is not so black and white.  I suppose there could be a real threat of a side chain taking over if there is little to no perceived risk by the market to move from chain to chain, but if the market perceives little to no risk then maybe there is little to no risk.  Savers will likely park their money in the safest chain, i.e. the chain with the highest hashrate and bitcoin could cease to be the dominant chain at some point.  I don't see why it couldn't happen.

Neither do I. And it would be very disruptive to hodlers who make up most of bitcoin today. And it could be a never ending transition add new innovations take place. Some of us would rather just leave our coins in cold storage for a few decades.

brg444, I'm past the part  about core dev altcoin implementations. I do see how it would be a hard sell for them although not impossible to sell to noobs. You forget that we are witnessing the power of what they can do RIGHT NOW with this SC  proposal. They've banded together precisely to push this proposal through as a  for profit company which requires a fork for them to be successful. It's not a wild thought imagining them trying to implement a new currency some day. LukeJr has talked about demurrage coin on reddit. Why? I could see a day where he starts one on his own and claims its just him personally, not Blockstream. Unlikely but possible.

On planes all day so in and out
Altcoins can be created as an easy way for governments to create a Bitcoin backed fractional reserve coin. Perhaps Blockstreams's customer base will be governments that can force their acceptance. At least with a guaranteed percentage fractional reserve in Bitcoin it will appease their largest stakeholders. If they are trying to deceive the general public, then they will be exposed. Only governments are allowed to do that and get away with it.

I could go for that.

Smooth is right. SC'S are just sophisticated forms of altcoins.
They can be. BTW, the white paper lays it out pretty simply if you ignore the fallacious arguments. I mean, the paper is highly defensive and biased. The core idea is okay, but too vague to glean much useful information. It's nothing that hasn't been discussed for years. The idea of replacing Bitcoin by merge mining and legacy support has been around for years. I just can't wait to see a truly 1:1 SC coin that is able to magically convert bitcoins back and forth.

I think in this situation, the price of BTC would be zero, assuming all miners have left the bitcoin main chain for the SC and all the BTC have been converted to scBTC. and that's because there would be no miners left to perform the proof to get from BTC to scBTC. And even if so, the tx cost would be prohibitive.
What about the coins not converted? If miners abandon them then what makes you think they won't abandon your coin? No. Miners want to preserve the coin integrity they built. They will hold your coin hostage and deny it's existence if you try to break Bitcoin because you will give them 51% control by your abandonment. Then you will have an orphaned altcoin with no more security than any other altcoin.
2008  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
tis thread has turned into a political discussion...  Angry Angry Angry

Watching bitcoin meandering ~360 is too depressing Undecided

im not depressed, we have price increase from 300 to 390 and everybody expect no correction and ppl taking profit ? surely trader taking profit, then whale hammer down the price again, and trader buy back to cover their short. this is great everybody happy except the little miner, which btw atm just like honey badger which doesnt care.
Classic Rule of Thirds trading. 360-390 range looks stable. Whalebull is consolidating orders then buys up. If not much resistance, it will break 400 and start the $15 fluctuations to gain short profits.
2009  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 04:18:07 PM
Anarchism has never existed in Western Culture because Christianity.
It did and it existed just fine for several thousand years here and strangely enough the records exist because Christians moving here to escape the inquisition made them. Liquid democracy is a suitable platform for the same system on a global scale.
It's amazing what people consider a wonderful anarchistic society. Their dirt roads and short disease filled lives must have been paradise.

The form of government has nothing to do with scientific progress.

Or... actually yes ! Governments work hard to stop progress and maintain status quo : cut in scientific research to fund social benefits.

Patent anyone ?
A patent is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or assignee for a limited period of time in exchange for detailed public disclosure of an invention.

Patenting is totally opposed to open-source.
Open-source come from people, not government.

Says the guy on the internet somewhere in the world using technology his anarchistic heros would have considered god-like.
2010  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 04:15:13 PM
I still haven't heard a good excuse for core dev concentration in one for profit company other than "trust us".

These are two perfectly good reasons and really the only reasons you need:
1)  open source code
2)  consensus execution of that code by miners voting with their processing power

Quote
Again,  why wouldn't we expect a SC fork of bitcoin with perfect anonymity to take over?  

This is not so black and white.  I suppose there could be a real threat of a side chain taking over if there is little to no perceived risk by the market to move from chain to chain, but if the market perceives little to no risk then maybe there is little to no risk.  Savers will likely park their money in the safest chain, i.e. the chain with the highest hashrate and bitcoin could cease to be the dominant chain at some point.  I don't see why it couldn't happen.

Neither do I. And it would be very disruptive to hodlers who make up most of bitcoin today. And it could be a never ending transition add new innovations take place. Some of us would rather just leave our coins in cold storage for a few decades.

brg444, I'm past the part  about core dev altcoin implementations. I do see how it would be a hard sell for them although not impossible to sell to noobs. You forget that we are witnessing the power of what they can do RIGHT NOW with this SC  proposal. They've banded together precisely to push this proposal through as a  for profit company which requires a fork for them to be successful. It's not a wild thought imagining them trying to implement a new currency some day. LukeJr has talked about demurrage coin on reddit. Why? I could see a day where he starts one on his own and claims its just him personally, not Blockstream. Unlikely but possible.

On planes all day so in and out
Altcoins can be created as an easy way for governments to create a Bitcoin backed fractional reserve coin. Perhaps Blockstreams's customer base will be governments that can force their acceptance. At least with a guaranteed percentage fractional reserve in Bitcoin it will appease their largest stakeholders. If they are trying to deceive the general public, then they will be exposed. Only governments are allowed to do that and get away with it.
2011  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 04:07:12 PM
We is atemporal.  We "always" am.  You is [are/were/will be--temporal rubbish!] without understanding.
*Plurality is illusion.

...
  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.
That's what we programmed you to think. Your conundrum compartmentalization subroutines are intact. Have a tasty treat.

I am he as you are he as you are me.  Coo coo cachoo, earthling.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.



I said you could eat your beetle.
2012  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 04:05:07 PM
Anarchism has never existed in Western Culture because Christianity.
It did and it existed just fine for several thousand years here and strangely enough the records exist because Christians moving here to escape the inquisition made them. Liquid democracy is a suitable platform for the same system on a global scale.
It's amazing what people consider a wonderful anarchistic society. Their dirt roads and short disease filled lives must have been paradise.
2013  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
We is atemporal.  We "always" am.  You is [are/were/will be--temporal rubbish!] without understanding.
*Plurality is illusion.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.
That's what we programmed you to think. Your conundrum compartmentalization subroutines are intact. Have a tasty treat.
2014  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 03:56:58 PM
I still haven't heard a good excuse for core dev concentration in one for profit company other than "trust us".

These are two perfectly good reasons and really the only reasons you need:
1)  open source code
2)  consensus execution of that code by miners voting with their processing power

Quote
Again,  why wouldn't we expect a SC fork of bitcoin with perfect anonymity to take over? 

This is not so black and white.  I suppose there could be a real threat of a side chain taking over if there is little to no perceived risk by the market to move from chain to chain, but if the market perceives little to no risk then maybe there is little to no risk.  Savers will likely park their money in the safest chain, i.e. the chain with the highest hashrate and bitcoin could cease to be the dominant chain at some point.  I don't see why it couldn't happen.
Nothing will completely replace Bitcoin. They will have to have legacy support because multisig and lost coins. It doesn't matter if one becomes bigger than Bitcoin because it's pegged.
2015  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 03:47:21 PM
Anarchism has never existed in Western Culture because Christianity.

We have provided alternative religions to placate and suppress rebellious earthlings elsewhere.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.
Yes, but that was before the Reptilians and you know it scale breath.
2016  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 03:44:28 PM

No trade does not mean the price is zero, it simply means there is trade. For example, in a speculative market you would get no trading if everyone agrees on the same price.

Anyway, as I said mining would still happen, and you could potentially buy from miners, but only at better price than what they could get by converting to higher-valued scBTC. There is no arbitrage though, the mining rewards would simply be sought out for their conversion value and miners would compete harder for them, driving up difficulty.


Explain to me how you price something that doesn't exist.  If ALL BTC are converted to SCbtc, then that means no more BTC exists.  If no more BTC exist then there are no more sellers.  Buyers can't buy when there are no sellers and the price is effectively 0.
Bitcoins still exist, they can be unlocked by destroying (or locking) your SC coins, effectively swapping keys with the bitcoins. Their location can still be seen on the blockchain. Really it would drive Bitcoin price up, not down because it is the only secure exchange between SC coins.

Technically bitcoins still exist, but economically they don't exist until SCbtc is converted back.  You can't buy or sell BTC that is in the form of SCbtc, although the underlying peg should be understood by the market. 
Sure you can. If you have a 1:1 SC coin, then an exchange can do the alchemy to convert the coin to sell in either form because exchanges are off blockchain.

I get what you are saying but Smooth says you can't arbitrage between SCbtc and BTC because if SCbtc is superior, then no one will own BTC.
You can't arbitrage 1:1. That's why I don't think non 1:1 SC will work.
2017  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 03:39:48 PM
Anarchism has never existed in Western Culture because Christianity.
2018  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 24, 2014, 03:37:05 PM
popcorn
2019  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 03:35:24 PM

No trade does not mean the price is zero, it simply means there is trade. For example, in a speculative market you would get no trading if everyone agrees on the same price.

Anyway, as I said mining would still happen, and you could potentially buy from miners, but only at better price than what they could get by converting to higher-valued scBTC. There is no arbitrage though, the mining rewards would simply be sought out for their conversion value and miners would compete harder for them, driving up difficulty.


Explain to me how you price something that doesn't exist.  If ALL BTC are converted to SCbtc, then that means no more BTC exists.  If no more BTC exist then there are no more sellers.  Buyers can't buy when there are no sellers and the price is effectively 0.
Bitcoins still exist, they can be unlocked by destroying (or locking) your SC coins, effectively swapping keys with the bitcoins. Their location can still be seen on the blockchain. Really it would drive Bitcoin price up, not down because it is the only secure exchange between SC coins.

Technically bitcoins still exist, but economically they don't exist until SCbtc is converted back.  You can't buy or sell BTC that is in the form of SCbtc, although the underlying peg should be understood by the market. 
Sure you can. If you have a 1:1 SC coin, then an exchange can do the alchemy to convert the coin to sell in either form because exchanges are off blockchain.
2020  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: October 24, 2014, 03:20:11 PM

No trade does not mean the price is zero, it simply means there is trade. For example, in a speculative market you would get no trading if everyone agrees on the same price.

Anyway, as I said mining would still happen, and you could potentially buy from miners, but only at better price than what they could get by converting to higher-valued scBTC. There is no arbitrage though, the mining rewards would simply be sought out for their conversion value and miners would compete harder for them, driving up difficulty.


Explain to me how you price something that doesn't exist.  If ALL BTC are converted to SCbtc, then that means no more BTC exists.  If no more BTC exist then there are no more sellers.  Buyers can't buy when there are no sellers and the price is effectively 0.
Bitcoins still exist, they can be unlocked by destroying (or locking) your SC coins, effectively swapping keys with the bitcoins. Their location can still be seen on the blockchain. Really it would drive Bitcoin price up, not down because it is the only secure exchange between SC coins.
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