His posts are fine. He's fleshing out ideas. Want longer posts insteaed of many? Whats the diff.

Anyway, I dont understand why allowing identification is going to mitigate a trust issue. We already have a solution in bitcoin to mitigate trust issues. Using another identity one allows people to wear identity badges, like nice little 6 pointed stars that some people were forced to wear in some societies, to grossly detrimental effects.

Anonymity should be a right of the people and every person in this future society - the only difference is that anonymity allows the exploitation or damage of the system in our current society, in the new society there wont be any benefits to this anonymity, just protection from others damaging them. No group will be economically identifiable over any other.

Need a better way than giving up anonymity into the current hegemony to convince bitcoin users to merge into and takeover the existing system.

Bumping this thread.

I am interested in this kind of system. Need to outline some goals here.


Want to blend in bitcoin's aspects into the mesh system more deeply. Not just as a payment system incentive, but as a stand-in for trust.

The forced-work-as-standin-for-trust system is a useful solution to the Byzantine Generals problem, but we need to outline what trust we're trying to mitigate.

Right now centralized internet access is the norm, in a trickle up system. We must trust that the internet we receive from upstream nodes will a) work properly (ie not be shut off)  b) not be filtered in some way.

To avoid the shutting off, we go to an ad hoc model where trust in a particular mesh node is not required. This is done by supplanting work required on part of the node for the quality (uptime? bw rate? lack of filtering 'canary in a coalmine' content?) of the connection. However, in bitcoins the incentive for doign the work is to realise the value of the bitcoins you mine. In this case we have to realise some benefit to the node that does the work. Perhaps in this case then instead of like namecoin which is its own advantage as an alternate system to bitcoin, we actually use bitcoins to generate a payment for the node.

However we must be careful in that very very good nodes dont dominate the local (or larger) tree, or they'll become attackable as single points of failure/access. Not sure what can be done here - if we make an incentive to provide connectivity too large, nodes will dominate. If we make a timeout situation, then we'll be punishing reliable nodes and encouraging large organizations with wider resources to setup multiple nodes in cahoots and dominate. This is a tricky problem for local access - not the same issue as bitcoin dominateing > 50% of computation resources as connectivity may locally expose nodes to >50% (or more) of all connectivity travelling via just a few nodes, making a local attack on the leaf nodes QoS possible.

Throwing some ideas around here. Need input.

What are the projects in place or that should be started to increase legitimacy?

One easy way I see is to give part of your earnings to charities. Especially larger charities, well known and respected. Though the issue with them is they might not care about a piddling $1M donation, where as smaller ones very much will.

So the goal is to find a highly visible, very publicly-palatable (nothing too political or polarized) but underfunded charity (or a dozen), and give them money.

'sides, this kinda jives with the basic concept of a more community-based economy. a 5% tax/tithe isnt very much for a good cause, and also supports our own future viability with BTCs.

Thoughts?

anyone already organizing such lists and drives to donate?

Awesome. The best way to legitimize bitcoin is to give them away. I'd say its worth a 5% tithe -> to charity!

You're only going to lose the $ for power bills and capital you spent on your rigs. Right now the margins are (ridiculously, unsustainably) high ($30USD/btc vs 567k difficulty @ 6.3TH/s market today), that capital and power is a minor investment. Once it starts being a 30% margin business, it'll matter alot more what's 'losable'. Losing something you never had is losing the psychological game. Losing something you really paid money for is losing the financial game.

There's no real worry. Bitcoin is a pretty liquid market, with good information flows.

Someone with alot of bitcoins is going to spend some of them to analyse the risk. If its truly a risk, he'll spend some more and hire some blackhats to DOS deepbit to ensure his investment is protected. The fact that it hasn't happened yet indicates that those with the most to lose (those doing those top 100 xfers of 200,000 BTCs' at once, not you guys and your original + extra GPU you're using to steal power from your parents with) havent seen it as a major risk.

Or only stupid people mine and hold bitcoin.

It's one or the other.

the .o files appear to be corrupted:

any ideas please?

thanks very much
Paul
[/quote]

I think the SSE issue was covered earlier in the thread. I think it has to do with 64 vs 32 bit. I only tried to get it working in 32 bit compile environment. Good luck with 64. See my instrux previously on 32 bit.

Super efficient houses use a 1000W heater at intervals for the whole house. Most space heaters are 1200+W and you'd need 5-10 of them for a regular house (1500-2000 sq ft), more for bigger houses, if they're poorly insulated.

Depends on how many rigs yer running.

Ok getting the ball rolling here a bit:

Governments might not have an issue with bitcoins' "anonymity" - it's fleeting. Consider the richest BitCoin holders - with basic traffic analysis on networks, it would be relatively easy to track one bitcoin address and related transactions - and map them to IPs and IPs of people sending them coins.

This would produce the ultimate in tracing financial transactions. This kind of information would be very powerful, especially in watching for large events, such as large corporations finalizing a deal - a big transfer goes through - this would mess with stock markets (but in a perfect world, the market will build this into the price immediately, along with a speculative value for the timing of the transaction before it actually occurs).

Would this not be a boon to government surveillance, far beyond what is capable now? Psuedonymity can be useful, but once its traced to a particular individual, all future transactions can be tracked against them. And merely generating more addresses isnt always possible - you'll want your contacts to know your current BTC address to pay you and not have to go find another.

Perhaps a crypto network escrow service that hides actual addresses, without needing to give a central entity full control of your keys is possible - another p2p identity verification network?

This ability to track and trace all trends and transfers of money will allow for some amazing economic and financial manipulation by large players -- unless the system already prices such risks into itself inherently by its own nature. Perhaps untraceable cash and imperfect knowledge, in a currency with imperfect liquidity is required -- is BTC actually the libertarian's nightmare disguised?

How does this work? You HAVE to explain it or the public wont trust your keys. Furthermore, some segment of the population has to understand it fully, the rest will follow the herd of smart people.

Til then tho, there's no market.

This is a very vague discussion level post.

Im wondering what kind of societal, economic, market, political and psychological changes might come about to society, business and various other facets of life if BitCoin was to become a widely used currency. (We can also talk about what's going to stop it from being so, tho that's widely covered elsewhere too.)

Im thinking a few very vague notions:

 - bitcoins are nominally worth current technology x current cost of power. What would this do to the cost of power if massive mining by members of an electricity market was undertaken?

 - since power is loosely related to the cost of oil and gas, what does this mean for the heating market and energy markets?

 - attaching microvalues to all messages sent/actions undertaken by all people, to underscore their sincerity - will this result in the (nearly) infinitely-divisible fractal monetization of much of  human activity even down to the interpersonal level? What does that mean for fuzzy-valuations of common-goods and community that we all intuitively understand and engage in - will they be strictly monetized? What will markets in such fora look like?

- economics 101 - when a currency is infinitely liquid (as btc may become with cell phones automatically chattering payments to eachother at high rates during normal social or commercial intercourse), what happens to economies that run on them?

- how about competing BitCoin networks? How about an huge number of different semi private BitCoin networks/currencies?

Cmon, get your thinking caps on, i wanna see the next Neil Stephenson novel taking shape in this forum

Is your software using the GPU too? Whats the nominal market value for this derivative market?

You sharing your vanity generation code?

You get paid out when you hit 1.0 BTC _AND_ a block is found to pay people out from. We're still finding blocks regularly, so its not too long to get paid out.

As for worth mining with 60Mhash - check the mining calculators for your cost of power (dont forget to x 1.6-1.9 if you have to run AC too) and if you leave your computer on anyway (take away that base power level from your increase for bitcoin to find the extra power and its cost) -

the only thing that determines value of mining isnt the difficulty, it's your ratio of MH/s to the whole market indexed against the value of a BTC in USD or other.
It floats up and down between worth it and not for any particular rig.

Adults like to lose money?

The only thing that determines profitability isnt how absolutely fast your rig is, but how fast your rig is compared to the total hash rate. Bitcoins increase in value relatively in step with difficulty of course, so you get more for more difficult coins. What matters is your chance of being the one to find it/being part of a pool that does.

The more people that drop off, the better it is for all miners, regardless of difficulty. In fact, mtgox might even show value vs other currencies increasing for BTC because its so hard to generate more - the money supply just slowed down, value goes up. And on top of that your chances just increased because people left - best time to mine, evar. But please dont, cuz Im mining right now. Let you know when Im done kthxbai.

I had problems with phoenix when I first joined. Might be because I was using bare 1.4 and didnt patch up to 1.46 or 1.47 (.48?)

ufasoft was working fine with shares, but this is what i got with phoenix (runing at the same time):


I stopped it and ran the regular pcolbm miner instead at nearly the same rate.

(however I just got this on it:


is that normal?!)

Im  1BTFUtEscdizVPGiqrKhpy5s6QiQ4nNemC if that helps track this down.

haha, you're missing the point! any money saved by heating your house with your rigs is now LOST to the outside! why not just... HEAT YOUR HOUSE with your rigs?

If the rigs are putting out too much heat however, you could have a distribution issue, and need fans (which cost power too). Better to spread the rigs around the house,
in drafty areas, say under windows

Still you are saving the cost of gas on that electricity only, still going to be 7-10c/kWh in most of the cheaper markets for heating by electricity, and still much more (tho in such markets,
gas tends to be more $ too - there's some friction between gas and electricity prices in each market).

Payouts of 1.0 BTC might be a bit high.

Someone asked 1BTC or once a week (once the credit is a week old? pool credits from the week? dont know), but 1.0BTC has exploded over the last 6 weeks and is about to get a lot higher.

Of course it's an odd thing - soon it will be downright a waste of power and real money to use anything < 10-20MH/s, if it isnt already (unless it's people at work or school leveraging employer's/school's power lol). Im just playing around with BITCOIN and dont have real gear here, a whole 30-35MH/s woot lol. (possibly not economically viable with airconditioning on in the summer...)

If the market keeps climbing like it is, it's quite possible to asymptotically never get paid - until you stop contributing to the pool. That's a strange incentive to provide to pool members - to leave the pool!

Unless it keeps load on the server down by not having to service pissant miners like me - a nice incentive to GTFO and let the big boys do the real work?

Just wondering whats going to happen when the minimum payout of 1.0BTC is on avg 50 6990's running for a month and is worth $1200 USD. (Sorry thats a top of my head guess, i could be off by a magnitude or 3 -- there's some relatively linear range of values for difficulty:$USD exchange rate on mtgox, bitcharts has the data). You get what I mean.

perhaps payouts should be when they're equivalent to one USD according to MTGOX or average of the largest 3-5 exchanges or something.

Feel free to base it on Euros too, or some basket of currencies. Maybe we should base it on the price of oil, since electricity tracks that somewhat too... lol. Economics 101 fun!

really, it should just be based on the current difficulty, relative, say, to what 1 BTC:cur difficulty is right now. (434883, for reference when this topic is another 3-6 weeks old...)

Awesome page!

Do you have a hashrate distribution diagram? Like showing the statistical distribution and stddevs for the population.  That'd be interesting to see. Also would be interesting to see is the movement overtime of 2std devs or so of the hashrate population above and below the mean, graphed over time. This will show how fast the pool is increasing its power per individual contributor (not that contributors cant generate more addresses for themselves to mine with..)

Awesome work thanks! Soon as I have some BTC's ill start donating lol.

phppgadmin - web-based administration tool for PostgreSQL

course, real men just use really huge xterms instead and alot of scrollback...

SRSLY, responsible financial institutions use postgres. It's a question of how serious
your local bank-pool is about transactions!

Then again, replication between nodes is a lot easier with mysql, at my last look. Could be better now in pgsql...