hi everyone,

can anybody suggest a decent exchange with decent volume where you can trade perpetual futures without the need of a identification process?

I used to operate on binance but futures trading has been closed in my region, same for kraken futures.

bitmex only works in btc

other ones I know only with verification.

I am tired of sending my id and personal info to some obscure agency or service all around the world..

may be this won't help you directly but it may give you a useful perspective on trading which could help you in the long run

https://youtu.be/bT140eYQwWE

consider Kraken instead. I know it doesn't get the same temporary hype as other exchanges have done over the years (Bitmex, Binance, now FTX) but it looks like a solid exchange.
May be not the same volume, but even lower fees than FTX for futures trading

thanks for your answer!

and what are the differences between subscribing and buying?

thanks for your reply.

I don't have all the time that I used to have previously in my week days now, so I usually end up carrying some things to the weekend where I have more time. So I guess I'll be processing in more details on your answer and in case elaborate something.
Thanks in the meanwhile

ps: yeah redw. one fun exercise if you have time would be to compare (by charts) how a particular token rose or declined compared to the corresponding underlying asset.

I am sure we'll find out that BTCUP rose less compared to how much btcusd rose; and BTCDOWN declined more than how much btcusd rose

personally I understand this; having read the articles and all this is quite clear: I may need to study it a bit in depth, but the general picture I gues I got it.


My question was simply this: is it all baked into price, isn't it?

Because after all, I am sure you'll agree with me, that's the only point that matters from a risk management point of view as a trader: being able to clearly define risk.

When you trade leveraged futures for instance, your risk comes not only from the outcome of the price action, but also from the margin and liquidation settings. So in that case your risk is defined by your price action (stop loss ecc) and by your margin, which of course you need to take always into serious consideration.

When you trade BLVT Leveraged Tokens on the other hand, my guess is that you may even ignore what is happening under the price "engines": whether the leverage was rebalanced or not, whether you are paying a daily funding fee or whatever: you don't care.
And why is that?
Because, once again, it's all baked into price, isn't it?

So once again what defines risk is simply your price action: that you can clearly observe on the chart and that you can effectively define by a simple... stop-loss.

I don't know if I expressed clearly..

Let me give you another example: when you trade a perpetual swap contract on bitmex you pay or receive a periodic funding fee which occurs every 8 hours (shorts pay long or viceversa).

Now, this element is not reflected into the asset price, but it is shown in a dedicated item in your trading reports.
This means that funding fees are another element to take into account when defining risk other than price action, when trading swaps on bitmex.

That doesn't happen in BLVT, does it? Because once again it's all baked into price (or the NAV, as they call it, right?)

So this is my point / doubt: those mechanisms underlying BLVT price definition may even be complex and various but, as long as all this elements are expressed and reflected into one single element (which is price), you can always define your risk clearly and trade this asset as any other ordinary trading asset; and, most importantly: you can always define your risk by observing only one single element, which in this case is price action.
Not margin, not liquidation, not fees: you will observe and base upon price action and price action only.
Is this right?

yeah sure,

hi redwine I am happy to share what I've found, so here some links on the subject:

a nice discussion on reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/binance/comments/l3mbru/binance_leveraged_tokens_degrade_at_a_consistent/


a couple of articles from the binance blog itself
https://www.binance.com/en/blog/421499824684900885/4-Pitfalls-of-Trading-Leveraged-Tokens-and-How-to-Avoid-Them
https://www.binance.com/en/blog/421499824684901079/Why-you-shouldnt-hold-leveraged-tokens-longterm-


the guide on binance "academy" section
https://academy.binance.com/it/articles/a-beginners-guide-to-binance-leveraged-tokens-blvt


some YT videos containing also very clear "warnings"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMELGznXXU&t=598s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duXCDCXevIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbSVwlouEY
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=binance+leveraged+tokens



I don't have time this very moment, but later on I plan to connect again and report my impressions about the trade I had

today I closed a position opened some days ago on BTCDOWN/USD BLVT.

Despite all the warnings about the product (given in some cases by binance itself) the trade executed with no surprises, as I started to suspect at some point, based on what I had read.

There's still something not very clear about this product to me though, so I would like to discuss doubts and questions with those who may have direct experience with it or may be just those who, like me, want to understand more of it

that's right. Consider I came into this market at the beginning of 2018, as many others did, just after the bubble.

Especially during that first year, until Dec 2018, shorting could be very profitable instead as you will remember.

Now we went through a year-long bull market which proved so strong and shorting was certainly not reccomended, BUT..

another bearish phase will come, another consistent phase of price correction will come: and shorting during those times will not look as crazy as it may have looked during those last weeks.

As for the extent of the price reduction, I believe that $30000 can surely be in range, especially if the drop is fueled by some sort of bad reputational news, where everybody seems to just want to run away.

It will not happen next week of course, but when it drops, even if he drops from 100k, 30k will not be out of reach in my opinion.


As for the short trade itself, I have discovered this asset on binance which I kind of like because it look pretty balanced:

being aware as I am of how hard it is to short an asset, especially a raging one like btc, I find this tool quite interesting: because it's not futures so you don't have to pay any sort of funding; it doesn't belong in the derivatives section of binance either, so you don't have to face the risk of margin calls or some tricky surprises with margin/exposition ratio: it's just a tradable asset with its own chart like any other tradable binance asset.

The (inverse) correlation with btc is pretty balanced all in all and I think it's a nice tool for a price reduction phase in general.

We'll see what happens 

really nice job!

this work shows you have some skills, I hope I can ask you some advice I have on a portfolio tool I made myself with google sheet: it works but I would need to integrate with some binance api.

Tomorrow with a bit more time I'll post it here and see if you can give me some advice

you are right, as I've already stated some posts ago I have sold 3/4 of my position after transferring to binance and I am always ready to open a new long.
Today I was caught by surprise, and couldn't foresee such a spike up, or I would have opened a long position.

if we reach 100k in the next months as you say, I hope I will be in with more than 1/4 as of now

Has anyone here ever traded BtcDownUsdt on Binance?


I was thinking of buying some, it has good outlook. But I dont trust binance, so was curious to here others opinions, in case some surprise may arise

Same question for Paxg always on Binance: you can invest in gold with crypto: I like that

I have spent the last three years on an italian discussion forum (not bitcointalk) where I could truly get a glimpse of what being a Bitcoin fan really means.

Personally, as I was trying to argument in a previous topic here, I don't have anything against holders for what it's worth: but I can't stand crypto fanatics.

And may be just because I envy them after all, who knows..

Anyways, there was this guy in the forum who used to brag because he didn't use stop losses: he never ever closed a position in loss.

Besides being a holder with the classic DCA approach, he used to open some "trading" position from time to time on bitcoin or alts, but he never closed the position if it was in loss. What did he do? He just waited.. waited until the price rised up again and turned the position to gain.
(of course he wasn't affected by funding fees because he only operated on kraken or bitstamp).

In the end he admitted that he couldn't consider himself a real trader, but rather that he was sustained by some sort of faith in bitcoin, which led him to believe that the price will always come back and rise no matter what.

Now, this type of conduct would be punished in any other financial market.. but not in cryptomarkets..

If you look at the dot-com bubble back in 2000s, you notice that some stock did never touch those prices again (ST microelectronics, for one), so if you had bought at their highs in the mid of the bubble, you would be in loss even after 20 years.

The nasdaq index took something like 14 years to "recover", to check those price levels again, just to give an example..

Instead, if you bought bitcoin at its high back in december 2017, after just 3 years you'd be forgiven your mistakes..


Bitcoin fans keep buying "the dip" as if the price was destined to always be rising "by design"; they worship plan B and all his stock-to-flow stuff, which I hate.. they have no consideration for any sort of method whatsoever, they don't know what risk management is... they just believe .. they just have faith and rely at the mercy of bitcoin ..

but, surprisingly, they are right until now..

and, I'll admit, that makes me a little mad ..

may be there's a misunderstanding here, or may be it's something I am missing: I didn't sell BTC for USDT or some other stable coin: I sold them on Binance (3/4 of them) to € Eur. I'm inclined to think that is real money. Or you are aware someway that in binance even eur are still crypto? This sounds new to me


it's hard to tell: bitcoin had a year-long run during which the price decupled (!). It can go higher, of course, but it may not. The point in my opinion is providing you with some sort of exit strategy which fits your goals and your beliefs and stick to that.
But this, of course, we all know 

thanks for your replies.

I translated the captions into english.

Regardless of one's actual choice, I think it's always interesting discussing about these subjects which are quite rare but very helpful.

Let me illustrate what I mean for the member who was asking




Let's imagine a scenario where BTC drops from $ 62k to $30K: as you can read in the sheet it's a 52% price drop. If you have 0,1 BTC, before the drop they are worth: 0,1 * $62000= $6200.

When the price drops to 30k they will be worth just $3000. In order to keep their initial value you must necesserely increase your amount of btc during a phase of price reduction.

In particular, if the price drops to 30K, in order to maintain your initial (or maximum) value of $6200 you need to increase your total btc amount to at least 0,2067 BTC. In fact 0,2067 * $30000 = $6200.

Now, in order to open a short position for 0,2067 at $62000 you need to have an exposition of approx. $12800, which is double the value of your actual position.

It means that you need to open a short position for double your entire btc amount.

And this is easier said than done, especially from an emotional standpoint. And all this just to maintain your value, not even increase it ..


This is the reason why in the end I preferred transferring my btc from Bitmex to Binance, where I sold 3/4 of them for fiat money (€).

This way, no matter how deep bitcoin drops, a certain amount of value of money will always be safe.

And that's it.

But this also means that bitmex, while it's more transparent (more on this in another topic), it must be rejected because it proves itself quite limitating compared to binance .. at least for me


For those who ask why not holding, I am basically not a holder.

hello everyone,

it is a very specific question I would like to ask, so I hope those who take part to the chat will talk from direct experience.

I've been using bitmex for over three years now, and I never felt the need for a different trading account: partly due to its low fees, partly to its graphic layout, to its semplicity and of course, liquidity.

As we approach the risk of a phase of price correction though, I need to consider effective strategies for hedging the value of my bitcoin amount.



You can short of course; but that's not as easy as it looks, so I am starting to realize that may be it's better to switch from btc to fiat during significant price corrections rather than opening a short position.

Now, bitmex lets you do a lot of things, but something you cannot do is selling your crypto assets for euros: you need a different exchange for that, like Binance ..


So in this small topic I would like to discuss the outcome of those two (or more) different approches when you feel the need to protect your crypto capital in a descending phase.

Bear with me ()






let's suppose you have 0,1 xbt in your trading account: you wanna be able to keep your equivalent value intact even when the market is descending.

If the price goes from $63000 to $30000 you'll need to have 0,21 btc just to maintain your equivalent value stable: this will cost you a short position of $13230 exposure starting from $63000, which is (was) rather hard to open just to maintain your value, and you won't be getting any additional significant advantage compared to switching to fiat money.

what's your take on that?

do you agree on my calcs?

it looks like I was sadly right my friends ..

back in the italian board I read there is this guy who brags for not using stop losses when "trading": I have an unshakable faith in bitcoin, he says..

in how many other markets do you think he would survive??

bitcoin rewards his absolute ignorance, and this is a matter of fact. And it's not an uncommon fact.
This, once again, makes me sad.

For me it was trading212, the videos with David Jones; and Tradimo
Tradimo really is a good resource in my opinion