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1  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTC/USD futures settled in BTC exchange (alpha version) on: June 12, 2011, 02:44:30 AM
Ah, I didn't realize the matching code required the same percentages, but I can see the difficulties in reconciling two orders placed with differing percentages.  The way it is currently does kindof allow for a fair amount of permutations for a given order price.

As far as the password reset, I meant (and wasn't clear) just being able to change my password.  Although a reset password function (say a temp password good for 1 hour) will probably be necessary at some point as your userbase grows.

2  Economy / Marketplace / Re: BTC/USD futures settled in BTC exchange (alpha version) on: June 11, 2011, 05:24:14 PM
I was the counter party.  What happened to my sell orders at 30 that I placed first?  I put those in first, attempting to match his.  When they weren't matched I put the others in just for tests and to see if anyone else would take them.

This is a neat idea though.

I'd like to see being able to reset my password as well as withdraw =)
3  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Clever tricks starting to appear: buying and selling on: June 11, 2011, 04:10:38 PM
I agree that $6 shipping is excessive.  One potential reason for charging some shipping would be to actually incorporate a physical object into the auction and ship it to a verified address for the recipient.  That would, I believe, per ebay/paypal policy make the auction subject to seller protection from chargebacks.  For example, if I sell 1 trinket on ebay, with a "free" gift of 10BTC.  Then I can ship the trinket via certified mail or something else with tracking.  The sale is no longer in violation of the TOS, and in fact is subject to protection from fraud the same as buying or selling anything else on ebay.

*The above is based on my interpretation and experience doing limited business on ebay with paypal.  Obviously read their docs yourself and come to your own conclusions if you are going to try it.

In the spirit of this thread, I'll mention another trick I've seen used.  Ive had buyers "buy" BTC from me, and then wait ~24 hours to pay or cancel the transaction.  I assume they are watching the price and then only complete the transaction if the price shift is beneficial.  This was in the bitcoinmarket.com PPUSD exchange.  It obviously doesn't work in markets where both currencies are already on deposit with the exchange.
4  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Recent Events At Bitcoin Market on: June 10, 2011, 02:47:43 PM
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.

+1

It's not Dustin
it's not even paypal.
It's a few bad actors.
What it comes down to is that there were scammers using paypal and their TOS to their advantage by stating that they never authorized the transaction or some other claim and PP sides with the buyer.
I used PP on BCM, I bought some coins from numerous sellers.

The only nefarious stuff going on is with the PP buyers and/or their accounts.


This.

We would have the same problems with credit card payments, personal checks, etc.  Anyone can fraudulently claim they didn't authorize a transaction, or actually steal credentials in which case the legitimate owner rightly disputes the transaction.

Online vendors especially have been dealing with this issue for quite a while.  The current bitcoin exchanges aren't nearly as robust nor do they have the tools to investigate/enforce/prevent this type of fraud compared to other long standing online commerce.  This is essentially commodity that can't be tracked being sent between addresses that can't be verified to be associated with relatively anonymous parties that wants to buy or sell.  Its the digital equivalent of cash in the mail.  Until there are trusted exchanges who actually have the ability to back their assertions of trust with something of value BTC related transactions will be the easy target for internet scammers.

Although I was burned on a couple of transactions, it was <10% of my bitcoin transactions over the last couple of weeks.  I continue to trade, cautiously, and I hope others will do the same.  This is an emerging market and its up to everyone to educate themselves on the risks of their transactions and conduct business accordingly.  Providing relative safety for transactions has value and some have already started to attempt to provide this with varying success.
5  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Beware of scammers! on: June 10, 2011, 01:28:52 PM
ebay user cwheel5940 with 12 positive feedback wond the auction, submitted payment, and then shortly the payment was disputed as unauthorized.


Is this auction still up? I couldn't find it. Most likely the eBay account was hacked too.

The auction is complete but you can view here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230629836243

will edit my post to add the above link
6  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Beware of scammers! on: June 07, 2011, 08:22:18 PM
ebay user cwheel5940 with 12 positive feedback wond the auction, submitted payment, and then shortly the payment was disputed as unauthorized.

the buyer submitted the following bitcoin address for delivery:
1FVem29X3ugDfbLFuwj77phW16t3ndaPvm

From Ebay:
Buyer:   Chris A. Wheeler   
cwheel5940 (cwheel5940@aol.com) [contact buyer]
Buyer's shipping address:   
Chris A. Wheeler
118 Westminster Rd
West Seneca, NY 14224-1926 United States

The paypal account used for payment (giant red flag that the email address doesn't match):
(Likely this is a hacked paypal account, so nothing against the owner)
An unauthorized account activity claim was recently filed against the
following transaction.

Buyer's name: Michelle Rosmanitz
Buyer's email: arosmanitz@shaw.ca
Transaction ID: 96722664VS0701306

Transaction date: Jun 7, 2011
Transaction amount: $265.00 USD

*edited to add:
here is the ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230629836243

Just got off the phone w/ eBay, their online dispute process isn't setup to handle this situation.  They were entirely uninterested in taking any kind of report or complaint re the fraud and wanted me to just "request" to cancel the auction.  That is I submit a request and the buyer has 7 days to accept/reject, etc.

I really only listed those few bitcoins on eBay as kindof a test when prices had just started to go up.  I won't be doing it again as eBay's dispute processes take far too long.  If I was going to do it in the future I think I would just sell an actual bitcoin wallet stored on cd containing the BTC for sale.  It would then be subject to normal "seller protection", tracking numbers, signature on delivery, etc.  Sellers are generally protected when shipping to a verified address, and are immune from chargebacks if all the "rules" are followed.
7  Other / Obsolete (selling) / Re: Eve Online up to 6Billion ISK for .002BTC/million ISK or 512M ISK per BTC on: June 07, 2011, 02:09:56 PM
+1 successful and quick transaction.
8  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Beware of scammers! on: June 06, 2011, 11:23:42 PM
BCM Buyer ID 5810, alias petraki85
paypal address is brice.delannay@gmail.com

Scammed me for >$500 by disputing multiple smaller transactions as "unauthorized" shortly after I received and confirmed payment.
9  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Recent Events At Bitcoin Market on: June 06, 2011, 11:05:34 PM
FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds

Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.

Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.


Where is that in their TOS?  It may exist, but I've never seen it.  Have a link handy?

A closed network is much easier to manage.  I can eventually root out the scammers or whoever is inviting them.  Otherwise they just keep making new accounts.

When it's all said and done I may re-list it, but I will rewrite the email contracts and make it VERY clear about the risk involved AND that BCM can not be liable for any loss.

I dug through the paypal tos and other documentation when I started trading at bitcoinmarket.com wanting to know just what my liability would be for funds i received via paypal.  Closest thing I found is that neither the buyer protection or seller protection apply to non-tangible goods.  I confirmed this an hour ago with a lengthy conversation with a paypal 'dispute specialist' on the phone.  He confirmed that unless there is a physical item actually shipped to an address, there is no protection for either party.

*Furthermore* he confirmed that if the sending party claims that the transaction was not authorized (as opposed to goods not received, etc), that is an immediate trigger to close the case and resolve automatically in favor of the sender, reversing the transaction.  I specifically asked if there was any avenue for appeal, arbitration, or anything else after that happened and the answer was "no, once a case is decided that is completely final".

I asked him what I as a seller could do to protect myself from liability from actual unauthorized transactions or dishonest buyers and the only suggestion he had was to deal only with verified paypal members.

Paypal is so "easy" that I really wish it was a viable option.  No matter which party they choose to protect by default there will always be people who abuse it.

My personal suggestion for how to proceed, if at all, with paypal in bitcoin trading circles is some combination of:

-feedback on traders, to establish reliability (and make it obvious, not something you have to dig to see)
-new members start with a low limit on trade size
-some currency balance be held as 'collateral' for trades of considerable value to discourage theft.
-some way for both parties to the transaction to decline to proceed if the other has questionable reputation

10  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Recent Events At Bitcoin Market on: June 06, 2011, 09:14:29 PM
I'll chime in here and add that I was burnt by user 5810 to the tune of ~$550 USD.  Two separate transactions and paypal closed one case almost immediately despite the initial notification stating that I had 7 days to respond.  There was no explanation or note of any kind in the case.

I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.

The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had.  If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
11  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoinmarket member ID 5810, fraudulent trades on: June 06, 2011, 07:00:58 PM
They did the same to me for the following two trades on bitcoinmarket.com :

Buyer ID    Trade ID    Currency Pair    Price     Amount    
5810    2588    BMBTC/PPUSD    25.9900    11.0000
5810    2493    BMBTC/PPUSD    26.9900    10.0000    

After I confirmed receipt of payment, within a couple of hours of receiving the notice from paypal that the payments were disputed I emailed the admin at bitcoinmarket.com but never heard back. I received payment in the evening (US Central Time) and 1 hour later the payments were disputed.  The reason for the dispute is a claim that the transactions were unauthorized.

Paypal already closed one of the disputes (in his favor) without even waiting for my response.  Their initial email indicated I had 7 days to respond, and had to do so by fax since each transaction was >$250 USD.

I wish I would have known about the feedback section on bitcoinmarket.com!  If I had seen the users past history I would have been more cautious...

his username is petraki85
paypal address is brice.delannay@gmail.com
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