Pawn here. Hopefully this never happens to anyone else here, but in case you get stuck with a load of PayPal debt like I am:
1. PayPal holds the money after a claim is filed.
2. If you can't resolve the claim, PayPal limits your account so that you cannot move money or modify payment sources. To lift the limit they ask you to submit a list of information. You can still issue refunds with no money to back it up, which is what I did.
3. Once you submit the information (in my case, explanation that I was scammed) they will either unlock the limitations, or close your account. They closed my account. Great. (It can be logged into for the next 180 or so days.)
4. You cannot change the payment sources, so they attempt to draw from your primary funding source twice, then your backup source once, then they negative balance you. PayPal support confirms that this process is an unstoppable juggernaut designed to crush you. Well, the unstoppable part anyway.
5. I think they give you 120 days to pay off the negative balance before they they sell the debt to a collections agency.
6. I'm selling nearly everything I own worth more than $50.

I do not know what happens on the buyer side in this scenario.

Hi all, this is Cliff's pawn ("partner" sounds like I was part of the scam, so though derogatory, "pawn" is preferable to me, but call me whatever you want).

I contacted both kebabman and quick1unc on Skype immediately when I realized PayPal was running into problems with extracting a refund from my bank account. Yay overdraft fees. Because I don't have the funds to cover it, I assume PayPal will cover the refund within a day or two, then negative balance my account, then I'll repay over time. To be honest, I have no idea. I thought that's what they'd do since that's how they did the hold/lock on my account, so it surprised me (though I guess it shouldn't have) when I saw the insufficient funds notice from PayPal.

I've never actually had trouble with PayPal until now, so this is all new to me, but it would make sense that PayPal would protect buyers as soon as possible and pursue me to the ends of the earth.

It's now March 7, and none of the EMS tracking numbers that I know of work.

Time has proven that I have been scammed by OP, a person I worked with extensively for 8 months, who either (1) planned an extensive long-con from the beginning or (2) he decided to destroy me just within the last month - I'm not sure which is worse, but 1 of those is true.

kebabman and quick1unc can verify that I proactively issued refunds on PayPal 3 days ago, as it had become clear that I had been scammed because OP had stopped replying.

I'm an idiot and I'm ashamed that I was fooled by someone I thought I knew.
And I'm ashamed that I played an unknowing role in dragging anyone else into this, and I ask for your forgiveness.

For my part, I have done all actions necessary to return everyone's money who sent it through me. I do not know how many other orders went through OP's PayPal (and I did not even know he was accepting orders outside of me when this all began), but I know quick1unc has filed a claim against OP's PayPal, and it would probably be wise for anyone else to do the same.

I will spend the next 6-24 months trying to figure out how to pay off my negative account balance.

I have no parting thought other than to say, I was wrong. You all were right. I'm sorry. I'm an idiot. I'm royally and irrevocably screwed.

This is good information. It increases my scam concerns. However I can confirm that he does not use either E.Sun or CitiBank. quick1inc can confirm he has seen a picture the OP took outside the bank where he picked up funds, and it is neither of these.

I can speculate that OP would want to avoid E.Sun's 2.5% withdrawal fee to keep his margins, but that's just speculation. OP has never said why he uses a different bank.

I'll try to address some of the recent comments in this post.

First I'll reiterate:

1. If it's a scam, I'm facing the transactional consequences via PayPal and not you.
2. Presently, I think that it's not a scam based on my past experience with OP, but the timeline for determining the truth may be more like 21 days than 5-7 based on BCT user unc0nnected's experience. Because unc0nnected's EMS tracking began working 14 days after payment, and based on current open orders, I would probably agree that I am being scammed on March 7 (14 days after transaction) if no one's EMS tracking is working.

Since my last post the following points were raised:

soothaa (paraphrased) - This is useless evidence. Pics with proof of old account and I'd send money.

- "I'd send money" - Let's get this out of the way first. Even if you offered it, I would not take anyone's money presently. I would instantly refund it. Taking it would only elevate my risk.
- I would wholeheartedly agree that my words do not serve as evidence. The purpose, at least in my mind, to talk here is not to provide evidentiary claims. It's providing context to help you decide if a scam is occuring since I have more insight into this and am, in fact, the potential scam target.
- The same unconvincing pics that exist in the thread already - are, for the most part, the same pics I have. I have
1. 1 picture quick1unc didn't post for privacy reasons I imagine, but are equally imperfect in regards to proof of purchase.
2. 1 screenshot quick1unc sent me showing unc0nnected's EMS tracking from Taiwan's Airport to Canada that demonstrated tracking does not include in-country travel, only travel after Airport Customs
3. Some screenshots from the OP of tracking info from the Canadian Post to unc0nnected's house, but I doubt those would rise to the level of proof without doxing unc0nnected.

In my estimation, I do not have sufficiently convincing pics of products that could resolve all doubt that I am being scammed.

Only an extended timeline will tell with any certainty if I am being scammed at this point.  If there are specific claims (perhaps outlined?) and correlating evidence you think would prove those claims without a shadow of a doubt, I'll try to think if I have a method available to me to substantiate it, but I don't think I do.
- I do not have an old account. Certainly casts doubt on my statements, but hopefully quick1unc and kebabman can vouch for the fact that I am at least the same human who took their money based on our Skype conversations.

looperjack (paraphrased) - I know Taiwanese who use PayPal to withdraw to their bank accounts just fine. Scammers use other people's PayPal accounts - you should have known better. Lack of receipts is disobeying the law and a poor excuse for lack of evidence. His English is fine and he shouldn't be afraid of coming on here to talk.

- It's possible that Taiwanese do use PayPal to withdraw to TWD bank accounts. My experience is limited to Google searches on the topic, OP's claims in the context of a trustworthy capacity from June - December 2017, and PayPal's statement about the subject. If you could demonstrate that it is true that when you pay Taiwanese PayPal users, they often and easily can withdraw this money directly to a TWD bank account, it goes counter to what I understand about PayPal's statement, BUT if it's true, it would tilt my opinion more toward "I'm probably being scammed."
- While it's true that scammers use other people's PayPal accounts, I didn't have reason to believe I was part of a long con. Although, if I'm wrong and I'm being conned, I will adjust my tolerance for risk and suspicion accordingly going forward.
- I think it's fair to say that judging someone's skill at anything like English is a subjective task. In my estimation, the OP is correct that his level of English skill, given the lack of good pictures and the non-functioning EMS tracking, probably increases the community's suspicion that I am being scammed.


bill gator (paraphrased) - You should post proof of everything you're doing in the Scam Accusation thread. OP's lack of response is bad for his claims of interest in long-term business. OP's English level is fine and ridiculous desperate excuse. We need to packages, shipping numbers, better response.

- I'll admit I'm new here so I'm not sure what a Scam Accusation thread is (although quick1unc pointed it out to me), but I assume the purpose is to call into question a user's claims for the purpose of preventing them from doing more deals. First, I fully expect that if these deals go south, my account should be burned and this thread is sufficient to call the OP's claims into question.

Second, if this is a scam, since I am the one being scammed (from a transactional perspective), I'm not sure what proof would be sufficient to substantiate that I'm being scammed. Nor do I see what the value would be in proving that I am being scammed? Since I am not convinced of it yet myself, and have arbitrarily set my own persuasion evidence as EMS tracking on March 7, I cannot think of types of evidence that would reverse the claim that I, ATRD, am being scammed. I can say that on March 7, I will say I think I am being scammed if there's no EMS tracking.

Essentially, buyers are risking an amount they are willing to pay for cards, for up to 20 days (PayPal resolution dispute timeframe), to see if the OP turns around goods, and at the end of that time, the financial risk drops to $0. The question is, "Is OP stealing money from ATRD by passing money though his PayPal account and then not delivering goods?" While lack of pictures within the first 14 days casts doubt on OP's claims, it corresponds with unc0nnected's positive experience from what I can tell. The only 100% reliable method I can think of to answer, "Is OP lying to steal money from ATRD" is to wait until 14 days pass and see if by that time the EMS tracking is working. That would be roughly March 7. If it's not, then I'm screwed.
- I agree OP's lack of response is not good for long-term business. And yet, to the contrary, if people end up receiving packages, it would, at least in my subjective view as a buyer, set the foundation for people knowing that his customer service may be bad, but his products are good. This silence approach is not at all what I would do. In any case, unresponsiveness is not a perfect litmus test to determine a scam, though admittedly, often correlated.
- OP's English level is a subjectively determined metric. In my estimation, it may be good enough for conversation, but in the context of explaining a problem rife with cultural differences, poor English + poor customer service often acts as a variable to increase the expectation of fraud. While I have told him to jump in on the conversation anyway, he won't and says he'll wait till people get packages. Nothing I can do about that.
- I agree that all of our guesses about whether the OP is scamming me would be aided by better evidence.


crypto_curious - "Your mate sold me hardware, gave me false tracking number. I opened claim on PayPal and I will have my money back, I don't need to speak with you or to seller anymore, you are both burned and you can go away at this point."

- I'd feel the same way. We will learn soon enough (my guess is March 7) if the tracking number is not legit and then we will both discover if I have been scammed. I'm not attempting to save face here - I'm simply doing my best to provide context to this thread, and yes, absolutely my account should be burned if this is a scam.

Miscellaneous

While not a statement of evidence of any kind whatsoever, to attempt to clear my own head about the OP's claims, I spoke with friends who have lived in Taiwan recently and they indicated 2 weeks is not an unheard of amount of time between when a shipment arrives at a local post office until when it arrives at airport customs where EMS begins working.  This corresponds with unc0nnected's experience.

If anyone with experience living and working in Taiwan could provide evidence that this claim is false (perhaps a series of EMS tracking screenshots that show in-country transit notifications, and perhaps examples of similar shipments that moved much more quickly), that would also begin to convince me that this is a scam.

The screenshots quick1unc showed me from unc0nnected's EMS tracking indicate that EMS tracking numbers do not show transit notifications between local post office and airport customs.

One admitted problem I see presently is that the shipments, if they are occurring, are later than agreed to - they should begin to appear in EMS March 7. This is rather late. But not anything I can control as far as I can tell.

Cultural observation from which no conclusions can be drawn: Every Taiwanese American (whether American born or Taiwanese born) I spoke to whom I've known personally IRL told me to "Relax, it's probably still on the way." Nearly everyone else told me to panic.

Hi, everyone. I'm the OP's partner. This is going to be a long post to try to give you insight into what I know.

I have no history on the forum, so you'll have to ask quick1unc and kebabman to verify I'm the person they talked to on Skype after they filed their PayPal claims.

So if I were in your shoes, I'd want some peace about this situation, and OP is... well... he's bad at communicating. Consistently anyway. Which is bad. Not necessarily scammy, but it doesn't exactly inspire confidence. And my experience with him is that he's overly optimistic on delivery times, which has probably entered into this equation.

2 things I want to say before I give some history:

1. If this is a scam, I'm the mark and not you. Why? It's my PayPal account/balance at risk. If you're one of the 3 open orders that paid me and everything goes south, you're actually still in good shape from a transaction perspective. PayPal will refund you. Downside is PayPal is slow. Upside, you get your money back. So, we'll all see what happens and I'll be really sorry for all of us if this goes haywire.

2. Presently, I believe you'll get the cards, but based on the timeline from the one verified completed purchase with BCT user unc0nnected, it may take up to 3 weeks to arrive. (Ask quick1unc to verify he spoke with him on Skype. For what it's worth, I believe that transaction to be 100% legit. More about that toward the bottom.)

So let me back up and tell you what I know. Some of this will be unrelated to GPU cards, and my estimated dates might be a little off, but I want to give you context.

I've worked with kii552007_alt for about 8 months. Talked with him almost everyday. I know him by his English first name + Chinese last name. I've talked to him on Skype, both chat and face-to-face.

I first met him via UpWork around June 2017 where I ordered some anime style art from his anime/manga art studio. First a few small orders, then larger ones, then bigger multi-thousand dollar deals. All these bigger deals were direct - not via UpWork/PayPal or any escrow system. During all of these deals, he was incorrigibly honest. We agreed in advance on prices, deadlines, discounts, reimbursements, etc - and we always honored our agreements with each other down to a penny. Two times stand out as worth mentioning regarding his character when things didn't go well - once I wasn't satisfied with the quality of one of the pieces of artwork, and he personally paid a different artist to do a better version - basically delivering 2 things for the price of one. Another time we had a big deal paid upfront where he couldn't complete it, so he paid me back a huge chunk for the uncompleted portion. That was actually the conclusion of my art deal with the OP as I had hired an in-house artist at that point.

Around late January, I'd already been researching other current commercial trends like dropshipping or private labeling goods from China. OP approached me to ask if I'd have any interest in dropshipping GPUs. At this point the only thing I knew was: (1) the OP had proven himself trustworthy (2) GPU sales could be a good opportunity

So I took the risk of acting as a dropshipper for the OP for a few test orders for a fairly small margin.

The question you should ask is, "Why did you think OP would want you as a middleman when he could just sell direct?"

Based on our previously dealings, I knew there is an issue with PayPal and Taiwan.
https://www.paypal.com/tw/webapps/mpp/system-enhancement-faq?locale.x=en_TW

Since September 15, 2015, Taiwanese citizens can have a PayPal account in order to take international payments, BUT they can't use its balance to trade with people inside the country. So this presented a problem for OP. Buyers typically either want escrow or PayPal for protection, but he can't do escrow because he doesn't have capital, so that leaves PayPal. Distributors within Taiwan want cash. So how can he go from PayPal to TWD? He can't trade it for cash with anyone inside the country. But the other bigger problem is that PayPal will often hold the money Taiwanese receive seemingly at random for 10+ days, and from my experience attempting to use PayPal with OP, at a much higher percentage likelihood than citizens of other countries. (Although, admiteddly, that could be sample size n=1 issue.)

So by acting as a non-stocking retailer, I could take the payment as PayPal and send it to him in some other way. The end goal was to do a few orders this way to see how things went, then switch to a more traditional importer approach in which I'd buy inventory and sell from the US.

I sent 5 invoices for orders.
1 invoice was paid but was instantly withheld by PayPal, possibly because the buyer had an unconfirmed address, but I'm not sure. Rather than attempt to resolve this issue, I refunded them in full.
1 invoice never paid so I proactively cancelled the invoice.
3 invoices paid and I used those funds to pay OP to purchase cards and send them on (regardless of what happens next, they'll get their money back, but yes OP literally received that money)

By the time I sent invoices, OP had already been talking with at least 1 person and arranged a small order
The one happy buyer I know of is BCT user unc0nnected, who I also think is his first buyer. I've spoken with him on Skype. quick1unc has spoken with him. As much as anyone can ever know anything about a person, he seems legit, and his story checks out with screenshots I've seen from OP's phone of shipping notifications.
- He paid OP on Feb 5 for an RX580.
- OP says he managed to get the RX580 to the local post office on Feb 10, just before Chinese New Year
- OP gave unc0nnected the EMS number on the date it hit Customs on Feb 21. unc0nnected says the tracking number immediately worked on this date.
- unc0nnected received the package Feb 26 and is happy with it.

I think I saw someone have a question about receipts.
Google: "Uniform Invoice lottery"
In Taiwan, it seems to be, that businesses will sometimes give you a discount if you choose not to get a receipt, essentially helping them dodge sales tax. They've attempted to fight this problem by turning receipts into lottery tickets, but OP is obliging his suppliers by not taking the receipts.

The only thing I can think of now, is that there's hope in unc0nnected's story. There is a disconnect in Taiwan between the mailed date, and the date that the EMS number works. While a shipper could pay EMS extra to track both inside Taiwan and Internationally, my understanding is that OP arranged it so only the international portion of the trip would have tracking.

At best, it takes awhile to arrive.
At worst, you get your money back, and I'm screwed.

I'm in contact with OP as recently as a few hours ago.

Why isn't he talking on here?

According to him, he feels that his limited English is not helping with making people feel more safe about this transaction, and instead, simply adds fuel to making them distrust him more. And he feels like the proof will be when packages arrive in the mail and everyone is happy from his actions and not his words.

I have more to lose than anyone, but I think it will all check out in the end. We'll see soon enough.