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21  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Solar powered Bitcoin mining!? on: February 22, 2014, 05:28:21 AM
It's a giant bird roaster apparently. Birds flying in between the mirrors and the collector are getting scorched from the very high temperatures generated there.

As for cheap electricity, I have 20 acres in Southwestern Utah that is approximately $0.055 per Kw of electricity. Commercial power is supposed to be cheaper. It's rural co-op power so any profit at the end of the year goes back to the customers. Unfortunately, it would cost about $12,000 to get the power extended to my land. I live in Arizona and pay around $0.10 for electricity now. If ever my mining expands into a large scale operation, I would have to move it there.

While it might not be possible to reduce your power costs too much, recovery of the energy output (heat) would be an opportunity to save money elsewhere. Everyone uses hot water in their home. Heat from mining can be transferred to the incoming cold water supply branch that feeds the hot water heater. This way, the water is heated up before hitting the hot water heater. I guess it is a matter of cost but I've always thought that the incoming water that feeds the water heater could circulate through the home and pick up heat in the summer time and be bypassed in the winter time.
22  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: "Consensus!" Fiat to Crypto P2P Exchange Concept on: February 22, 2014, 05:13:04 AM
Is there anyone who would comment on whether this could be feasible on a technical level?
23  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: BANK RUN! - P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange on: February 22, 2014, 05:10:24 AM
I see a few things that has to happen to absolutely remove the threat of blackmail. First, the BTC seller has to already have the funds in a state of transfer before cash is sent. Second, the parties to the transaction can't have a say in the final disposition of BTC.

For the first thing to happen, a temporary address has to be created and the coins have to go there so that the seller can't avoid following through with his obligation in the transaction. On settlement, the buyer can simply receive the private key to this address.

For the second thing to happen, there has to be an escrow agent(s) to determine the proper disposition of the held coin. Agents would also need a way to verify the fiat transfer and the presence of the correct amount of BTC in the temporary address according to the contract terms.

I discussed a way to make this possible earlier in this thread and also started my own thread to discuss it.

Perhaps there is a way to incorporate it into this project.
24  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: The worst ever that could happen on: February 21, 2014, 01:30:08 AM
If they give back the coins, you should give them a reward for doing so. Perhaps they can use that reward towards paying off their debt.
25  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Whoever is responsible for not halting the trading at gox needs to go to prison on: February 20, 2014, 09:54:26 PM
For mtgox insiders to go to prison, they would have had to break a regulation. Why should a business thatdeals in an unregulated currency be regulated?

The price dropped because of supply and demand changing as a result of the news that broke. People panic, it happens.

I somehow doubt that if bitcoin had a sudden run up to $2000, that the OP would be calling for prison sentences.

Nothing is guaranteed in investing in bitcoin and no one has an obligation to protect you other than you.
26  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: power supply for 4 miners on: February 20, 2014, 05:51:10 AM
Are you on 110 volt power or 220 volt power?

In typical US home, each of those need to be on separate branch circuit, not just separate outlets. If same breaker cuts power to two miners, you need to separate them off same circuit.

If you can run your own romex wire, buy 12-3 with ground and run it to a single electric outlet.  Break the metal tang off the hot side connection on back.  Connect other end to single two-pole breaker in your panel. You must put the two breakers on separate phases. This will give you electric outlet with two separate circuits with 20 amp rating. You can run a second romex for another two circuits.
27  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Fiat to Crypto P2P Exchange Concept on: February 20, 2014, 12:20:19 AM
More about escrow agents:

Escrow agents would be composed of humans and of a quantity requested by the Bitcoin seller. Seller will specify an escrow fee ranging from $0 with no upper limit. Seller will also specify the number of agents needed to validate the transaction. So, as an example, Seller specifies a fee of 0.01 BTC and 10 agent confirmations. The 10 agents split the fee, getting 0.001 BTC each. Now, in the case of smaller transactions, a no fee transaction can be specified but there are some risks involved with that. I think that initially, anyone can download the client and become an escrow agent and potentially earn btc for doing so. When you first become an agent, you are limited to $0 fee and low fee transactions. Sellers and Buyers can rate the overall transaction and this system rewards trust points or reduces trust points to the agents. Also, agents who don't reach the same consensus as the other agents (they can't see other agents' validations) will get their trust reduced, and vice-versa for those who achieve consensus.

When you choose to pay a higher fee, you get access to agents who have received higher trust in the system as well as more agents, increasing the likelihood of drawing experienced agents. This can be important for transactions where more money is at stake.

28  Bitcoin / Project Development / "Consensus!" Fiat to Crypto P2P Exchange Concept on: February 20, 2014, 12:05:34 AM
I'm reposting this here. Originally it was in the Bank Run! P2P thread but don't want to distract from that thread or coattail it.

I'm just thinking out loud here but maybe something can come of this.

Western Union has a way to send cash to their agent locations. These transactions can by picked up in cash by a person by simply presenting the MTCN (Money Transaction Control Number) along with ID at the agent location. Once cash is picked up, it is obviously not reversible. There's a period of about 3 days for the cash funds to be available for pickup. The downside is having to show ID.

My thinking is that there still needs to be an escrow system that works anonymously. The escrow system can rely on mining for escrow fees. A not-yet-solvable block can be created once Bob deposits BTC plus escrow fee and enters his first and last name. In order to be solved, additional information has to be input from the transaction. When Alice sends the Western Union Three Day payment, she gets a MTCN from Western Union. She then enters that MTCN into the client, the country it was sent to, and amount. She also must enter a BTC address to receive the BTC when the block is solved. Once that information is entered, A waiting period of 96 hours is created. This creates time for Bill to obtain the cash, making the fiat transfer irreversible. The escrow system encrypts all the information and checks Western Union online to verify the MTCN is valid and the receiver matches, etc. If it all matches, then the block becomes solvable. Once solved, the btc gets paid to the bitcoin address supplied by Alice. The escrow fee gets divvied up amongst those who solve the block.

This solution would have to integrate well with checking Western Union online. This might require people to do this manually. In that case it adds an actual human work component to the escrow system. Now of course, a person might just say yes or no to whether the transaction information on Western Union's website matches the information in the block. To facilitate this, I think several people would have to confirm the transaction. If your confirmation or rejection of the transaction doesn't match with the other transaction checkers, you lose points. Lose enough and escrows won't be assigned to you anymore. Truthful responses will be rewarded with small amounts of points, leading to more escrow verifications coming your way. Those who verify blocks, leading to them being solved, get a portion of the escrow fees.

I'm not a programmer and don't fully understand how blocks, etc., work so this might be full of flaws. Hopefully, not so many that it is useless even as a beginning concept.

29  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Is a mining rig a fire risk on: February 19, 2014, 11:46:33 PM
look into evaporative coolers if you are in a dryer climate. They can typically drop the outside temp about 20 degrees. Also, since they move a high volume of air, they can move heat away from the GPUs pretty efficiently. Most run on about 1/2hp motor so maybe about 400 watts. You install them such that they draw in outside air and you have to have an open window or door that permits sufficient airflow to exhaust the air, otherwise you'll get a buildup of pressure, forcing the cooler motor to work too hard.
30  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: NO DEVICE FOUND on: February 19, 2014, 05:44:32 AM
What device should it find?
31  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 04:06:52 PM

not any of those articles had anything to do with what i said, what a waste of time. stop trolling me, jerks.
So banks stealing people's money has nothing to do with security?
32  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 04:04:53 PM
Your entire argument is derived from the morality of tax evasion. He never said he avoided taxation when he sent 6k. You made that assumption and you are now arguing from that position. That is called a non sequitur,  a fallacy of logic.

Wrong. A non sequitur is an argument that derives wrong conclusions from a premise. i never made any assumption of him evading taxes or not, try to read carefully. you just assumed i made such assumptions, and now you are argueing from this position. In reality, i claimed that evading money transfer fees is the same as evading taxes. try to understand the difference.

If you really are into logic and rhetorical fallacies, i recommend to go through this list of cognitive biases: you might learn something there.
evading money transfer fees is the same as evading taxes? There is no legal requirement that I'm aware of that all money transfers must go through a bank, etc. So if I give a family member $400 directly without paying a fee instead of using Western Union then I am on equal footing with people who attempt to deceive the government by misrepresentation of their tax obligation?

Overstock now receives money without paying high credit card fees due to their acceptance of BTC. Are they on equal footing with tax evaders?
33  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 03:42:49 PM
Your entire argument is derived from the morality of tax evasion. He never said he avoided taxation when he sent 6k. You made that assumption and you are now arguing from that position. That is called a non sequitur,  a fallacy of logic.
34  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 03:33:14 PM
The beauty of Bitcoin is:

Over the weekend I sent approximately US$6,000 in BitCoin half way round the world.  Fee was approximately .38cents

Forty five minutes, all confirmed and ready to spend.

Try doing that with a bank on a weekend, or any other day of the week.

No bastuards at the bank involved.  

It puts a smile on my dial every time I see BTC fly.

tax evaders also smile when they park their funds on the caymans. exactly the same thing. the only real difference is, they have at least a little bit of shame and aren't boasting about it usually. you kind of disgust me.
You are assuming he is subject to taxation, and therefore, an evader of taxes. Maybe OP reports his taxable events, maybe he lives where this type of act isn't subject to taxation. Maybe he knows that government thugs using guns and threats of imprisonment are no less a criminal act than robbery at gunpoint.
35  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 03:06:45 PM
I was directing those foolish statements toward the OP. Guess it wasn't clear enough.
36  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Krugman & Greenspan said: "Bitcoin is evil," and lacks "intrinsic value." on: February 18, 2014, 03:04:25 PM

Why use bitcoin when you can use slips of paper backed by the full faith and credit of a country that is 17 trillion dollars in debt?

The US dollar is evil. It has bought a helluva lot more death and destruction than bitcoin.
37  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is A joke and will never last. on: February 18, 2014, 02:56:17 PM
By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's. --Paul Krugman

I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time.--Bill Gates

38  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Powered Riser: Rig shuts off w/ molex connected and works w/o. Why? on: February 17, 2014, 02:20:56 AM
If you have to reset the power supply, I'm guessing that there is a short or low-resistance path being created by connection of the molex cabling. Possibly bad PSU.
39  Other / Politics & Society / Re: P2P currency exchange & Escrow services now illegal ! on: February 17, 2014, 01:27:19 AM
as long as you don't carry more than $10,000 USD in cash on your person at any given time.
Are you saying it is illegal to cary more than $10,000 in cash on your person?

I will need a reputable link from you to even begin to believe that one.

So I can carry $9,999 and that is perfectly ok?

I cannot carry $10,001 - that is illegal.

What about exacly $10,000 Huh

What if I have $9,999 on me and I find a $2 bill on the sidewalk.  Is it then illegal for me to pick it up?

Note illegal and "not wise" are two very different things.

BTW:  This one time, in band camp, I bought a car from a guy and paid him $12,000 in cash.  Was I breaking the law just by transporting the cash to the sale?  

You can carry $10,000 on you as long as you also carry the proof of origin. Without the proof of origin your money will be confiscated if discovered and you will be able to provide proof to a magistrate or judge to reclaim your money. If you can't prove the origin you'll be able to appear in court and explain your situation.

If you have $9,999 on you and you pick up a $2 dollar bill you risk losing everything unless you have a withdrawal slip, Bill of Sale, or other valid documentation proving that an amount greater than or equal to $10,000 wasn't illegally procured.

Also, when you were carrying $12,000 in cash your money could have been confiscated and the burden of proving the origin would be on your shoulders.

Also, the physical coins are more like fancy wallets holding a debit card to an account with x amount (whatever the exchange rate is.) That wouldn't fall under the same category...
Read down to "Burden of Proof."

By not carrying $10,000 at any given point without proof of origin; there would be no probable cause for an officer to confiscate your cash for violating Section 6050I (26 United States Code
(U.S.C.) 6050I) and 31 U.S.C. 5331.

Even further; 97% of paper currency will test positive for drug traces...


You really wouldn't have to worry about it unless you consent to an officer allowing a search of your belongings, or if the officer has seen you commit a crime and would be able to prove probable cause at the time when you were searched.

I'm calling bullshit on your interpretation of the law.

First.  There are many cases of confiscation without real cause of LESS THAN 10,000 USD and that's a major problem.

Second.  You reference "FBI", but frankly, I don't know anyone who has every been on the wrong side of an interaction with the FBI.  On the other hand, we all know people who have been stopped for traffic violations, DWI, minor drugs....etc....these are state and local cops and LEO.  They don't care one bit about your "FBI" regulations.  They enforce local and state law.

You can call Bullshit on my interpretation all you wish. My interpretation of the law is just as meaningless as yours when standing before a Judge.

To your first point; absolutely... The more cash you carry the more likely you will be questioned about the source and about your intent while carrying it with you. The LEO can confiscate your cash if they choose to in most cases. As I mentioned; 97% of all paper currency is contaminated with drug traces.

Second point... Different LEO's will act differently in a given situation, the existence of a law is an opportunity for charges to be filed against you and further upheld in court. State, Local, or Federal law makes no difference... The Supremacy Clause works one way with Federal law upheld in all localities...

I'm not telling you that this is an A+B=C situation. You're likely in violation of other laws every day and yet you don't get in trouble... To say that you can't get in trouble with the law because you haven't been brought up on charges yet is something entirely different. If my wealth were on the line I would simply be cautious...

You need to re-read the links you have posted or gain a better understanding of them. The first link was a pdf for reporting cash TRANSACTIONS at $10k or higher. You can benefit from two different $6,000 transactions and have $12,000 on you as a result and not have to file that form.

As for the second link, you need to read up on what PROBABLE CAUSE is because that is what is necessary for a cop to take your money. Bare suspicion and probable cause are two very different concepts when it comes to law enforcement. I've lived in Las Vegas for a lot of years. People walk in and out of poker rooms with lots more than $10,000 all the time. So, in that circumstance, there wouldn't be probable cause. Now, if a cop witnessed someone walking away from a known drug house counting out a lot of money, there would possibly be probable cause to stop a suspect and investigate further.

Then again, I've seen video of a cop shooting a suspect in the back while his hands are in the air. None of the several other cops at the scene used deadly force so his actions aren't justified when applying the reasonable response standard (how other cops would react under similar circumstances). Cops are scum so while not illegal to walk around with $10k, dont...unless you want to make a street cop $10k richer.
40  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: BANK RUN! - P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange on: February 16, 2014, 04:33:43 PM

Duane, what you called earlier an "anonymous escrow system" can only be implemented as an oracle machine which will query and parse the  URL in order to make a decision about whether to release the btc funds or not.
But some oracle machine operator has to host that oracle machine and pay for hosting. Thus inevitably, there will be a per-transaction cost on EVERY transaction even those where there is no dispute.
But if you get rid of the oracle machine hosting and use a 2-of-3 multisig escrow and call upon the human escrow agent ONLY when a dispute arises, then there will be NO transaction fee for all normal transactions. There will be only a fee(or rather penalty) payable ONLY by the offending party at the time of a dispute.

TLDR 2-of-3 multisig with a human escrow is much more fairer and preferable than an automated oracle machine.

This is good information, thank you. I imagine the escrow fee could be minimal as a percentage. If the fee were $5 on a $500 worth of BTC, that's only a 1% fee.

My original concept used several people to verify the transaction went through as intended. So, if humans were to do the verification on the WU website instead of a machine, would an Oracle machine and hosting be needed? In any case, I figured the fee could be adjustable if there weren't fixed expenses. The p2p exchange would use human input from the buyer, seller, and escrow agents to create a solvable block that would solve and dispense the BTC according to the escrows' consensus.

Here is how I envision the escrow fee process. Seller of BTC specifies the fee to be paid and the number of escrow agents to confirm. So a $5 fee with 10 agent confirmations would pay out $0.50 to each agent. Since the work required to verify is minimal, this might generate pretty rapid confirmations. If the seller wanted $5 and 100 confirmations, then there would be fewer willing escrow agents, although in poorer countries, this might still be attractive income. I suspect that market forces would choose an equilibrium between the fee, the number of confirmations desired, and the time this will occur in.

Possibly, new escrow agents could start out on the transactions that pay little in per-agent fees. Then, as their trust in achieving consensus rises, they can move up to higher per-agent fee transactions. Those traders with lots of money on the line can opt to pay a higher fee to get more trusted agents. Also, a feedback system can help to adjust agent trust levels. Buyer and seller likes the outcome, they can rank the transaction highly and the agents benefit. If one party didn't like the transaction outcome, this could hurt agents' trust. If trust drops, agents can end up back in lower tiers, etc.
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