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1  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 02:15:59 AM
It's exactly like the gold rush. First there were a crap ton of little prospectors. Then the ones that hit the mother load started buying up the little guys. Then the big guys started buying each other out and now we have a hand full of huge gold mining companies.  Large "elite" gold mining companies aren't bad for the gold industry. This is just the way things work.

Your analogy is wrong. Once extracted and refined, the value of gold lies in the gold itself (gold atoms).  On the other hand, bitcoins value depends on having a mayority of honest miners 24/7. You dont need third parties to do a transaction with gold. But to do anything with your Bitcoins you depend on miners, forever. This is the fundamental difference between Bitcoin and gold.

If bitcoin mining gets concetrated in few hands, or outsiders can overwelm the Bitcoin mining power, Bitcoin is in danger by design.

I think our paradox genuinely does not seem like a problem to most people. I debate religious people for a hobby so I'm used to it, seeing the cornerstone of human failure in action never really ceases to fascinate me.
Don't expect an answer against this theoretical flaw any soon so I'll check on this topic later on.

We have a nice saying in Holland that goes: "unable to look beyond your nose".
My second most favourite Dutch saying would be, "failing to see the forest due to the trees".
I guess we'll see what's going to happen. Smiley
2  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 01:48:15 AM
It's exactly like the gold rush. First there were a crap ton of little prospectors. Then the ones that hit the mother load started buying up the little guys. Then the big guys started buying each other out and now we have a hand full of huge gold mining companies.  Large "elite" gold mining companies aren't bad for the gold industry. This is just the way things work.

It's not what I said- my scenario's theorized that most people will inevitably cease mining as soon as the extreme miner spikes show up.
Haven't said it's bad, there will still be miners around I suppose.

As with the gold mining companies, obviously there are still plentiful fortune-seekers around but their odds of finding gold (given they have properly studied geology and plentiful other fields) will be significantly bigger than the odds of being able to produce BTC effectively in the near future without major GPU farms on your own or within a mining pool.
Your 6.6 Ghash/s doesn't get you near the spikes that seem inevitable to me soon, hence the fact your rig performance stimulates other "developing elites" if you will- to invest more and more into their mining rigs.
3  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 01:12:53 AM
Thraex, I have been quite a few days in this forum so far, and found out that most people dont want to think long term, or realistically. They just want short term gains, or dream about fame and riches. I am also invested in Bitcoin, but I am consious that this project needs a lot of fixing to overcome all the problems it has.

I dont know if we can post stikys, I guess only moderators can. But its a good idea.

Ah, how surprising really. I wouldn't have ever thought people could not be concerned by the long term effects of our actions. Anyway, we can either hope that by at least announcing the problem we stimulated people "getting into the elite", if you will- it would however appear to me but a matter of time untill the spikes of absolute extreme miners appear who would ultimately compete amongst themselves.
Or a moderator can confirm the possible flaw and come up with a sticky list of plausible solutions linking to their respective topics.
Anyhow, thanks for saving my time.

If anybody more comes up with idea's and more insight I'd be happy to read.  Smiley
4  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 12:49:05 AM
As I've understood the system so far, mining will inevitably become for the few groups/people with truly the most money spent on hardware.

In my opinion, if economies of scale kick in, and there are no built-in countermeasures in Bitcoin, what you describe is the inevitable outcome. The other option would be a social movement to defend democratic mining, instead of concentrated mining. Achieving social traction in the masses could be one or two orders of magnitude more difficult than a technical solution IMO.

I suggest we come up with a sticky proposing possible solutions with their respective amount of votes before we get over-excited when the outcome is reality and people collectively cease mining.
Hope someone can in short tell me why a development into a mining elite should be of no concern or not possible, to keep the bottomline answer of this topic short and have people spend/waste less time reading.

As for economies in general, to me the most effective system one can have anyway is a resource-based one like we see in conspiracy documentaries such as Zeitgeist. It makes everything else look like a massive war of ego and greed.

Anyway, still reading. Smiley
5  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 12:30:44 AM
Thankes Andes, it doesn't take much to think the concept through- I'll read the topic for some insight.

I think the bottomline really is that miners and mining pools should work on "real spikes of elites" if you will, blocks or bans of some sort. I'll read the topic for some idea's now.
6  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: TO NEW MINERS: trust your feelings... on: June 12, 2011, 12:26:14 AM
I'm still going to order an ATI Radeon HD5870 for mining, if the plan to win the money back in xx days/weeks/months fails I'll simply use it for BOINC or F@H or gaming basically.
If it does win the money back I think it would be fair to get another one, but I know my limits. Mining would probably cease to exist for most people if extreme elites competing amongst themselves were to come.
7  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 12, 2011, 12:00:14 AM
Well, regardless of availability of cheap and increasingly more effective hardware- there will inevitably be better hardware, hence why miners invest in it.
I see three scenario's basically:

Bitcoin mining developing into
- A socialist-like system wherein one can produce (roughly?) as much BTC as everybody else regardless of hardware, therefore mining probably ceasing to exist.
- An elite system with a few strong miners competing each other and rendering others impractical.
- A system wherein one can only be "an elite miner" for a limited period of time or other principles that prevent strong elites.

In each scenario, the system will change. And it seems to me in a way not for the best for the general public unless there comes something that will prevent extreme elites, which I believe would be in conflict with how the system fundamentally works.

Enlighten me if I'm being ignorant. Smiley
8  Bitcoin / Mining / Inevitable development into mining elite? on: June 11, 2011, 11:39:39 PM
Hello everyone.
Firstly I'm new to the BTC forums so this is my first topic, and I have this thought on mining.
It'd be nice if someone could enlighten me on how the Bitcoin system is going to prevent a development into what is basically a mining elite wherein it's a few people/groups who essentially compete with eachother for mining the most BTC, and the general public generating maybe a few % of the rest- subsequently rendering mining for them practically useless.
As I've understood the system so far, mining will inevitably become for the few groups/people with truly the most money spent on hardware.
I've thought it over and it sounds inevitable to me frankly, but if that's not a problem I'd appreciate a responce as to why.

Thanks Smiley
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