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1341  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Blockchain-based betting services function as mixing services? on: April 01, 2013, 05:30:08 AM
And the rewards are returned to the same bitcoin addresses you send from, so it doesn't add any anonymity.

Sorry for the necro thread, but there was a suggestion as to how a blockchain-based wagering service like dice could offer mixing:

How Satoshidice is/can launder coins
1342  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: How Satoshidice is/can launder coins on: April 01, 2013, 05:26:10 AM
Shouldn't this be obvious under inspection?  The balance of winning bets vs. losing bets would be skewed due the lack of random nature of the "released" bets.

Nope, because they select the bets to be released such that the laundry customer's net profit before fees (and the house "take") is exactly zero.  That's what you'd expect in the long run from true randomness.

There is no bias in the overall win/loss ratios.  The only bias is in which wallets win and which lose, but you can't detect that, especially if the customer provides multiple clean wallets and multiple dirty wallets.

Then your wagers for both the losing as well as the winning side would need to be placed on the same wager option (e.g., all on the same "less than 8000") so that they can be evened out without introducing any bias.

The customer then spends the money out of the clean wallet so SatoshiDice can't use the unreleased transactions.

That's not even needed.  The transaction hash used by the mixing service to determine whether the wager is a winner or loser will change based on any of the data in the transaction changing.  So if the INPUT and OUTPUT are the same for each trial, the amount can be changed to cause multiple transaction hashes.

So if I understand your approach correctly, here' s the approach with this INPUT re-use variation:

This assumes the desired amount to mix is 1,000 BTC, as you described was the amount of "dirty" coins.

So there would first be construction of the winning wager using the "less than 8,000" bet which has a 8x payout.  So that bet amount needs to be about 125 BTC (which will win 1,000 BTC).  So multiple wager transactions are created for the same INPUT and OUTPUT, except the amount for the first one is 125.0 BTC, the second one 124.9999999, the third one 124.99999998, etc..   So maybe a few dozen of these are created to ensure that there is at least one transaction out of the batch is a winner (transaction hash that results in a number less than 8,000).  These trials are not broadcast to the network but sent out-of-band to the mixing service.

Then there would be the construction of the losing wagers.  There are a little over seven losing wagers needed to average out the one winner.  So to "burn" the 1,000 BTC plus a 5% mixing fee, for example, the target amount of 1,050 BTC is divided by seven to get 150 BTC per losing wager.

Thus seven addresses for the losing wagers are each funded with 150.  Then for each there is maybe a dozen trials created for each using the same approach as above, one at 150 BTC, the next at 149.99999999, then 149.49999998, etc.  

The end result of that is for each of the seven "losing wagers", there is at least one trial with a transaction hash from the batch that is a loser (i.e., transaction hash that results in a number of 8,000 or greater).  These trials too are not broadcast to the network but instead are sent out-of-band to the mixing service.

The mixing service then evaluates the batch to find one winner and evaluates the losing batch to find a loser for each of the seven and broadcasts those eight transactions to the network.   The end result is mixed coins with nearly no detectable bias.  (The correct ratio is one winner out of 8.192 trials so there is a slight bias for rounding down to 7 losers.  Even much of that bias could be corrected for by the mixing service by instructing for there to be 8 losers (with a lower wager amount requested) for every N "mixing jobs".

The benefit to a popular wagering service offering this rather than some other mixing service presumably comes from there being an enormous number of unrelated transactions flowing through the service such that the payouts to the "winning" wager (clean) would essentially be unrecognizable as having any amount of taint higher or lower than any other wager payout from that service.
1343  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-31 Forbes 'Is Bitcoin Doing Well Or Is It Just A Bubble?' on: April 01, 2013, 01:57:17 AM
so what is an approximate figure for the yearly USD value of Bitcoin transactions?
Is there a site with a regularly updated estimate of this?

About a week ago, BitPay, the largest (by a wide margin) bitcoin payment processor reported month-to-date transactions through merchants using their service of $2 million.

Yes,  $2 million for about three weeks.    Obvoiusly, that's growing fast -- but let's give it 100X growth over the next year, to $200 million a month, or about $2.4 billion on an annual basis.  If the U.S. GDP of $16 trillion works off of $1 trillion of money supply that's 16:1 of transactions of economic activity versus the money supply (velocity would be 16, calculating it that way).

So using that same number, the $2.4 billion of economic activity and velocity of 16 means bitcoin's value a year from now should be about $150 million, or about a BTC/USD of $12.50.

The thing is, if bitcoin continues to grow for use for all kinds of financial transactions, including forex speculation, it wouldn't be $200 million a month but maybe $200 million an hour.  And thus today's $93 BTC/USD would be incredibly undervalued.

After cringing when listening to someone mention borrowing on a credit card to buy 5 bitcoins I heard the justification that if Bitcoin goes to zero, that person is out $500 and dines out one day a week less over the following year.  But if it goes to $10K per bitcoin, that builds a good base towards retirement for that person.  When just a little over two years ago when bitcoin first crossed parity with the dollar (Feb 2011), predictions of $100 a bitcoin seemed just bizarre to most, yet inevitable to others (Falkvinge, Max Keiser, among members of this forum).
1344  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: In principle, is an individual miner the "creator" of his block reward? on: April 01, 2013, 01:34:08 AM
Bitcoins are created by the code, or we can use the term "network itself", not solo miner or pool. Solo miner or pool just fullfill the requirements
for new bitcoins to be created, that is all.

Even if somehow this "creator" refers to the recipient of the generated coin, who would be the creator?

If I mine in a pool, I am providing hashing capacity service to the pool.    The pool operator is the party that receives the generated coin.  Individual miners get paid for that work, but generally not from the generated coin.   

Now Eligius and P2Pool distribute generated coin directly to the miner proportional to the work contributed, so in that case it might be argued the miner was the "creator", but in all other instances apparently it would be the pool.
1345  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: So finCEN has basically legitimized Bitcoin on: April 01, 2013, 12:57:56 AM
My original post was to see what your thoughts on taxation as a miner and if you think the government will  be able to cut into profits. If so are we talking short term capital gain type 40% crazy taxation.

Taxation and FinCEN guidance on money transmitter laws are two completely separate topics.

As a miner, you don't actually mine the coins.  You are providing a hashing service and the mining pool is the party generating the bitcoin (it is the pool's address in the coinbase, not yours).

So how that will get fleshed out will be interesting.

I think there seems to be either ignorance of the guidance or perhaps a collective bit of civil disobedience occurring.
1346  Bitcoin / Technical Support / Re: Mt.Gox Withdraw Problem on: April 01, 2013, 12:47:35 AM
Any other ways of contacting them?

You can open a support ticket:

Did you access the site using Tor?   If so, (or for whatever over reason they deem necessary) Mt. Gox may put your account on hold until you verify your account.  It is in the user agreement when you sign up.

Your options include:

a.) Provide identity information to verify your account
b.) Abandon your account and the funds in it.
1347  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Little Mt.Gox help. on: April 01, 2013, 12:44:01 AM
So you HAVE to verify in order to withdraw at all?
The yellow box says I am able to withdraw 100BTC today.

Did you access the site using Tor?   If so, (or for whatever over reason they deem necessary) Mt. Gox may put your account on hold until you verify your account.  It is in the user agreement when you sign up.
1348  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MTGOX Trading Questions on: April 01, 2013, 12:41:20 AM
1. Is there anywhere I can see a list of the buy and sell order queued on MTGOX in the same way as Vircurex? I am aware of the wall graph but want specific figures.

Clark Moody has a bitcoin view giving the order book with sum total amounts ... if that is what you are looking for:

You can also click the calculator on that to see slippage for specific order sizes.

2. If the current MTGOX BTC buy price is $95 and I set a buy order for 10BTC at $100 when I have no USD in my account, what happens when say $1,000 then arrives in my MTGOX account?

Then that is no different from placing a buy order of 10 BTC @ $100 when the deposit gets credited to your account.  If there are sell orders that will fill your order, they are matched and you are the new owner of up to 10 BTC at $100 (or less if there were standing sell orders for an amount lower than $100 at the time your funds got credited).
1349  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Deposit and withdraw on: March 31, 2013, 11:05:01 PM
Or if money is deposited it remains as a BitCoin?

Some exchanges, Mt. Gox being the largest, operate as market exchanges.  So when you transfer via a bank transaction those funds are added to your exchange account.  But then you would need to convert those funds to bitcoin.   You do not need to remove those bitcoins, and at a later time you can sell those bitcoins and withdraw the proceeds as a bank transaction if you want.

Basically stocks.

So yes, ... an exchanger like Mt. Gox works basically just like an online broker does for stocks.

And just like with stocks, holding bitcoins exposes you to the risk of the value dropping as well.
1350  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Sup with MtGox volume ??? on: March 31, 2013, 11:00:33 PM
Everything closed down during Easter, Exchanges, banks, super markets etc.

To me that gives a pretty good illustration of how much the volume is related to new money arriving versus regular buying and selling such as when merchants receive coins and those coins get cashed out.

What happens if this is the "top" for a while and the exchange rate drops, ... those buying might hold off anticipating a better exchange rate -- accelerating a decline and a selloff commences.

But who knows.
1351  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What is this chart really indicating? on: March 31, 2013, 10:52:58 PM
just now it drastically within couple of days droped back to under 2 million USD.

The most recent partial-day data is inaccurate.

The 7-day average gives you a better picture:
1352  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: The minimum transfer fee is not trivial anymore on: March 31, 2013, 10:28:52 PM

Has anyone had ideas about if/how a user could choose a particular miner, or basically somehow influence transactions to go to a particular pool with a statistically relevant preference?

The reason I ask is that there really are far fewer mining organizations than I would have hoped to see at this phase of Bitcoin's lifecycle, and few enough so that collusion seems like a distinct possibility under the right set of circumstances.  If the userbase could punish mining organizations who might be discovered to be engaging in collusion or otherwise acting against the best interests of the economy it could be a balancing force.  And possibly a healthy one.

Transactions are relayed to all peers, so I'm trying to figure out what you are asking.

Are you looking for a way to broadcast a transaction only to a particular pool and hope that the one particular pool will not relay your transaction with its peers and instead be the recipient of the fees when that pool eventually includes that transaction in a block?   Thus your "punishing" is simply denying the other pools of the fees?
1353  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Why Polish bank accounts? on: March 31, 2013, 10:20:59 PM
It is the Bank Zachodni WBK S.A. in Poland belonging to the Santander Group.

Which exchanges use that bank?  Just Mt. Gox, or does BITSTAMP use it also?
1354  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: [ANN] - a location-based bitcoin to cash marketplace on: March 31, 2013, 10:15:09 PM
Are there any statistics available for Localbitcoins? i am interested in knowing how many trades, how much BTC/GBP and whether it is buy's or sell's are happening in my locale (UK).

Because an offer can stay published even after a successful trade of it occurs, even tracking the number of offers doesn't show how many trades or at what amounts in aggregate occurred. 

Currently there sequential number for offers is at 8030:

The rate of growth of that number can give a rough picture of the growth rate trend, but few other conclusions from that metric can be made.
1355  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Wallet - do I delete it? on: March 31, 2013, 09:45:55 PM
I'm sure I read that it is recommended somewhere whilst investigating bitcoin.

What you might have read is that if you have any old backup copies of your wallet.dat prior to protecting the wallet using the passphrase encryption that those old backups could still be used to spend the funds received to those addresses.

Even though you've now encrypted your wallet, the private keys used previously are still stored in the encrypted wallet -- they just are protected with encryption there now.  

So to protect even against the risk of loss due to those old backups, what you can do is spend the funds in your wallet to a brand new address from the same wallet after you've added passphrase encryption.    Then your old backups would not have any addresses that still have any funds on them.
1356  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-31;; Total Bitcoin value passes $1 billion on: March 31, 2013, 09:36:35 PM
There's no damn encryption used in Bitcoin.

You are correct when referring to the Bitcoin protocol (which was the context of that excerpt).

But just to clarify your statement, in the Biticoin-Qt/blitcoind client (and most others) there is encryption.  For example:
1357  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Best advice for someone wanting to get serious about mining alt coins? on: March 31, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
I don't really have faith in scypt and litecoin yet

You don't have to ... as every litecoin can be converted to bitcoin (or fiat) after it is mined.

But it sounds more like you are interested in speculating (paying for the electricity out of pocket and holding the coins you mined) than you are in just whatever profit can come from selling the coins as they are mined and profiting from the revenue minus expenses just from that alone.
1358  Bitcoin / Technical Support / Re: bitcoind listunspent for account on: March 31, 2013, 08:36:05 PM
Is there a way to get all addresses associated with an account?

You can use
to get all the addresses in the wallet and then getaccount to determine which account each address is in.
You could filter that with the ones you already know from getaddressesbyaccount and that would leave a smaller list (just of change addresses that exist for all accounts).
1359  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Offensive anti-Bitcoiner Bill Still just lost a fan on: March 31, 2013, 12:32:15 AM

He uses a lot of big words that he himself does not understand. 

Nor can anyone else understand it.

"This is the only way we can beat [the money masters is] for each of us contribute a little bit now. You can make a lot of money trading in bitcoins, but ultimately will that satisfy you in the end when in so doing you are neglecting the real source of human political freedom?"

 Huh     Huh      Huh
1360  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-30 Market-Ticker (Karl Deninger) - Bitcon: Don't on: March 31, 2013, 12:14:44 AM
For many years I've made sure that every one of Karl's posts are in my daily list of required reading.

And the previous post of Karl's is a video by former Presidential candidate Bill Still  (Libertarian Party) who weighs in on Bitcoin:


Offensive anti-Bitcoiner Bill Still just lost a fan

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