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2281  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: SERIOUS VULNERABILITY related to accepting zero-confirmation transactions on: January 13, 2013, 06:42:47 AM
I've been waiting for the right time to end Seals 0 confirm policy, seems like this is the time. It was really nice while it lasted, a playing with fire success story.

Because an online poker player can purposely lose to another player, that essentially is a form of an Account-To-Account (A2A) transfer, so that makes sense that a a confirmation or two is a requirement before the funds can be used for play.
2282  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will/Should the decimal in BitCoin measurements be removed? on: January 13, 2013, 06:26:58 AM
It is possible people will call these by slang or informal names.  i.e. millies of mikes.

Millibit seems to be the most commonly used term for each 0.001 BTC (1 mBTC).
2283  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE on: January 13, 2013, 03:52:03 AM
How come BUH3 the future for BTC trades at a rate much higher then the spot price of Bitcoin its self?

The academic explanation:

Well, this situation is well known in "bigger" future markets too - contango or backwardation situation. And it's quite normal for a futures to be in either contango or backwardation most of the time.


Another thread where this is discussed:

Why are bitcoins in december better than bitcoins today? (ICBIT)

And Fireball posted how to take advantage of these situations:

Spot/Futures Arbitrage (with some bots source code)

The situation likely exists due to ICBIT being one of the few methods where leverage exists.  One of the few other methods of obtaining leverage is to buy a call option at MPEx. for instance, however Bitcoin's volatility is so high that premiums for that are high as well.  There are other differences as well.  With options, you can hold those until expiration even if the exchange rate makes a huge move against you.  With a futures contract purchased using leverage, an investor could see forced margin selling as a result of an unfavorable move to the exchange rate.
2284  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE on: January 12, 2013, 10:31:45 PM
The closing price for BUH3 was exactly the same (to three places) two days in a row!

Today (Jan 12, 2012) was the second day in a row with no print for variation margin on BUH3 (meaning the same clearing price three days in a row), and now today had no print for variation margin on CLG3 either.

I then made a trade after the Jan 12 clearing time where I sold BUH3.  It printed a variation margin with last= my selling price.  But in doing the math to verify, it doesn't jive if the last clearing price on BUH3 was still  "last = 15.5750", and instead the Jan 12th clearing would have needed to have been an amount higher than that.

Fireball, whassup with that?
  [Edit: i goofed in my calculation.  icbit did compute the variation margin correctly.]
2285  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Bitcoin Millionaire Syndrome extreme Bitcoin speculation and Bitcoin Economy on: January 12, 2013, 03:54:20 AM
Is it possible that this thinking and behavior is [...] detrimental to the expansion of the Bitconomy?

If I have $100 USD at an exchange, I can buy about $100 worth of bitcoins.

Then the person I send those coins to can go to the same exchange and convert those bitcoins back to just about $100 USD. There will be some loss due to exchange fees, so maybe when all is said and done the person I sent the coins to gets only $99.

The point is that this process is identical whether you are sitting on your coins or not. This is also identical whether the BTC/USD exchange rate is $14 or $40.

Where the problem comes in with you sitting on coins is whether you will you continue to hold if there is a selloff underway, and thus make the selloff even worse.

So the problem comes down to it contributing to "hoarding" increases exchange rate risk.  But it does not prevent others from using bitcoins as a currency for trade.
2286  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: SERIOUS VULNERABILITY related to accepting zero-confirmation transactions on: January 12, 2013, 12:44:18 AM
Umm, this is not new. It is incredibly easy to double spend 0conf coins.

1. Send TX with lots of inputs and no fee
2. Send same coins with a fee

2 will win. Double spent. SatoshiDICE was vulnerable to this, so is many others

Doing what you describe doesn't always result in a double spend.  The difference is that with SatoshiDICE, if your initial wager does confirm you still get back 98.1% over the long run -- i.e., these are wagers and the house edge is 1.9%, so over time, the cost of failed attempts is only 1.9%.  So if it succeeds once every fifty times, you profit.

Now instead if you are the thief and paying for coffee, and this double spend attempt succeeds only one out of five times, the coffee shop will thank you for coming back so many times in your attempts to cheat them (as the shop still makes money overall even after losing the revenues from the one sale where the double spend attempt succeeded.)

And the only reason that double spend on SatoshiDICE worked was because the transaction was initially being ignored by the main pools (being that the amount of data was larger than normally allowed without a fee being paid, and then no fee was paid) so eventually a miner who was likely using a modification (not part of the client) which accepts a subsequent transaction where a higher fee is paid, even if it is a double-spend.  Don't expect the major pools to adopt this modification.

While a merchant can't cut the risk entirely, there are a few things that will make attempting double spends like these to be uneconomical for the thief.  SatoshiDICE modified their backend to no longer show wino/loss immediately (on 0/unconfirmed) for transactions where no fee was paid until those no-fee-paid transactions see one confirmation.   A merchant could take a similar approach and also impose a delay when no fee is paid.

As far as retep's find, I look forward to knowing what was discovered.  

2287  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: [ANN] - Trade forex (+BTC/USD), indices, stocks and commodities on: January 11, 2013, 11:43:43 PM
A user with smartphone and the ability to install an app is all that is necessary.

Or a cheap Android tablet even.

Or even simply a second computer using an HTML5 version of OTP authentication:

How to use 2-factor auth on mtgox, even without a smartphone
2288  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE on: January 11, 2013, 10:51:30 PM
There was no entry in my log for Variation margin for BUH3 today (Jan 11, 2012).

I see the previous day's entry showed "last = 15.5750" and the current level is at about the same level so it is likely the clearing price today was the exact same as yesterday and thus, I'm presuming, that there was no need to add a log entry as there was no adjustment.

But there's no historic log of daily clearing prices that will show me today's clearing price to confirm that this is what happened.

Might it be better to simply add an entry in the log for Variation margin each day regardless of whether or not the amount was above zero?  At least then nobody would be left wondering if clearing didn't happen on those days like today.
2289  Bitcoin / Press / Re: Guidelines for Press board on: January 11, 2013, 10:29:12 PM
As always, comments and suggestions welcome!

As Bitcoin permeates through more and more of the conversations by the news media, journalists and bloggers the number of posts here is increasing dramatically.  Some of these have very little to do with Bitcoin itself.  

For instance, here's an article that didn't specifically mention Bitcoin by name but the reference to "crypto currency" followed shortly with a SR reference means this certainly was a Bitcoin mention:

Insights into Cultural Shifts from a Visit to a Hardware Store

Even though it is a great article, I don't think it is worthy of inclusion in the Press board here on the BitcoinTalk forum.  Bitcoin was simply just a mention in the article.

But yet a catalog of all the different mentions of bitcoin might be useful.  Perhaps a thread titled something like "Minor Mentions" would be more appropriate for posting links to articles and posts where Bitcoin (or a Bitcoin-related item) was mentioned but where Bitcoin was not necessarily a significant part of the article.

Here's another example:


That article was about SR only.  It did mention Bitcoin but it too was a small part of the story.

Or am I trying to fix something that isn't broke and including them in this "big net" Press board is something that works fine currently and should continue to be fine for the foreseeable future?
2290  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: January 11, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
2013-01-09 - PayPal Assault On File-Sharing Sites Makes Business Case
2291  Economy / Web Wallets / Re: - Bitcoin Block explorer & Currency Statistics on: January 11, 2013, 04:16:21 AM
I don't see any way that I can choose the language from (web) when the browser isn't wide enough for the drop-down select to show.  There is no scroll.   This will happen with nearly every mobile user attempting to use the web page.

I'ld use the Blockchain mobile app but it doesn't have the feature I was looking for ... to view the balance and transaction activity for a Bitcoin address.
2292  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] Paytunia Bitcoin wallet released today! on: January 10, 2013, 11:50:45 PM
We'd be very pleased to hear about your questions and comments !

I tried to install Paytunia on a Nexus 7 (Android 4.2.1) and it shows "Your device isn't compatible with this version."

Are there any plans to remedy this?
2293  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitmit is Closing?? on: January 10, 2013, 01:31:22 AM
As a bookend to this thread:

However, due to private reasons I decided to close Bitmit. It it too much stress for me because it is a huge responsibility to keep such a site running and  growing user funds safe. The site will stay online for some more weeks to guarantee that all current orders can be completed.

and then:

I planned this already some time ago and when I am going to "close"->sell Bitmit to somebody who can run it more seriously it would be a benefit for all of us I think.

Selling it on a Bitmit auction is a quite good idea I consider.

[Edit: And a related thread:

[warning] was sold secret without telling the community.
 - ]
2294  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: American Spirit Arms blocked by BOA on: January 09, 2013, 11:29:48 PM
What happened to Joseph Sirochman is extremely typical.

I wonder if accepting bitcoin for payment would paint a bigger target on these gun and ammo sellers than they already have (or at least I wonder if that would be a fear these sellers might have.)

These sellers are more dependent on keeping their Federal Firearms License than they are in being able to accept credit card or bank transfer.  (i.e., they currently seem to have more than enough business from customers at their retail locations and gun shows where sales are cash only).

But if this were to escalate to where banks start to outright refuse provide banking service to gun and ammo sellers then bitcoin could become a necessary component for survival of these businesses.
2295  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will Ubuntu for smartphones explode Bitcoin? on: January 06, 2013, 06:39:04 PM
If you have a "stock" Android phone then the manufacturer can send you OS updates,

I'm not too familiar with mobile network infrastructure.  So that is LG sending an OTA update for my Virgin Wireless branded-O/S to my mobile, and not my mobile network provider (Virgin Wireless)? 

Those are things that did happen to e.g. Hewlett-Packard and probably many others.

Yup.  This isn't a problem just for mobiles either.  This same risk occurs with any updates where the user doesn't have 100% control.  Microsoft, for instance, has sent Windows Updates that install regardless of the setting that enables automatic updates.

All that is needed is one bad egg with access to slip in a few lines of code to cause widespread misery.  And there are lots of bad eggs:

We recently dismissed 16 employees for accepting bribes
2296  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Satoshidice questions on: January 06, 2013, 05:43:34 PM
What would s.dice do if I double spend that coins ?

That's their magic sauce.  Well, it is not just them who are employing this technique now but they were the one that first introduced this particular method.

Each payout includes funds from the wager transaction.  So if the wager transaction never confirms, then neither will the payout.  This provides the ability for SatoshiDICE to send a payout on 0/unconfirmed and not have to worry about sending a payout with the risk that later the wager will end up being a double-spend.

There is one weakness with this in that if SatoshiDICE is revealing win/loss immediately, there is then a small chance to cheat then bydouble spending only the losing wagers.   This was evidenced in this thread:

Double Spend against a satoshidice loss

But SatoshiDICE made a change and now the chances of that tactic may no longer be a profitable method to cheat the service.   The change made was to treat wagers with no fee paid different, where it is not processed until the transaction gets one confirmation.

And how are s.dice sure that my sending transaction will get confirmations before their ?

Since they are linked, the payout will only confirm in the same block when the wager transaction confirms or in a subsequent block.
2297  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Neteller and moneybookers on: January 06, 2013, 05:32:03 PM
Is there a service where you can use Neteller or Moneybookers to buy Bitcoins?

This is the same type of problem seen when trying to buy bitcoins using PayPal.  Because the transaction can be reversed after the sale, no exchanges and few individual sellers are willing to sell bitcoins in exchange for either Skrill/Moneybookers or Neteller.

If you have establish a trust history on the #bitcoin-otc marketplace you might find someone willing to trade with you.

Otherwise, if you have a Skrill/Moneybookers prepaid debit card you can withdraw cash at an ATM.  If you can find a cash trade, that's one way to use your Skrill/Moneybookers funds for buying bitcoins.  There are cash deposit methods in many countries:

In the U.S., you can deposit cash at any Chase branch for credit to your BitMe exchange account:

There are cash deposit methods available in about two dozen other countries including Canada (CA VirtEx), Australia (Spend Bitcoins), New Zealand (bitNZ), many in South Asia (ECurrencyZone), Russia (BTC-E, BitInstant), and a dozen countries that BitInstant now supports.

A local trade with cash might be your quickest path:

And of course, there are numerous bank transfer methods.  E.g., in the UK, through Pingit used at and also supports Faster Payments transfers in the UK.  Elsewhere in the EU there are numerous relatively inexpensive SEPA transfer methods.   

There are a number of options:
2298  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: IP tracking on: January 06, 2013, 04:42:33 PM
If a wallet is down except for a few hours each week to catch up the block chain, is the wallet's IP address associated with that wallet's  transactions?  Can others associate a wallet's receiving address with its IP address?

You are making a common misunderstanding of how Bitcoin works.

The Bitcoin client collect IP addresses and the Bitcoin blockchain doesn't store them.  From the data in the blockchain there is no way to associate a transaction to an IP address or to know which node is responsible for mining each block even.

This misunderstanding comes from the information collected and reported on the third-party service,  They have a backend that makes many connections (over 3K at present).  When a node that's backend is connected to is the first they know of to see a transaction then their service tags that transaction with that node's IP address.    But there are tens of thousands (or more) peer nodes on the Bitcoin network so very often this "first relayed by" node IP address information is inaccurate.  If your node does not accommodate incoming connections, then quite often the transactions your node makes will be reported on as having been "first relayed by" with some other IP address than your own.

This same IP monitoring is part of the approach that uses to try to determine which node (mining pool) is responsible for solving a block.  And that's why there is a sticky at the top of the mining forum board.  An excerpt from that sticky:

If they are connected to an especially fast and well connected relay they will falsely report it as being the 'source' of many blocks.  This doesn't mean that this relay is a big miner, or that they're attacking the network, or anything like that. An example of this is the Swiss node at but there have been a number of similar misattribution addresses in the past.

People freaking out over these misconceptions will now be shot.
2299  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Cryptocurrency, The NWO Money System. on: January 06, 2013, 07:37:33 AM
I foresee this becoming a world currency, should it continue the way it is.

Would gold be considered a world currency?

The Occupy Movement is heavily involved in this as well, if that raises any alarms for you.

Well Occupy was generally not liking Bitcoin.  The NYC GA was accepting Bitcoin donations for a bit but there was no push to get behind it.  And there are others in the Occupy movement quite vocal against it:

Now I know some of you may be confused as to why I titled this as the NWO Currency.
Very, the NWO of legend would prefer something they could print at will, wouldn't they?

Exactly.  NWO power comes from a concentration of wealth and governance -- centralization.  Bitcoin is like kryptonite to them.
2300  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What is the greatest threat to Bitcoin? Some possible technical problem or gov? on: January 06, 2013, 07:08:32 AM
If is possible technical problem, what is this? I heard on Reddit and Facebook some worries about transfers/sec. Is it a real threat?

These aren't in any particular order:

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