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401  Economy / Speculation / Re: Which is LEADING: Bitstamp or Gox? on: October 09, 2013, 04:39:17 PM
Leading =/= being the closest to gox  Huh

Pardon me for being ignorant here, but maybe I'm not the only one.  In what context is "=/=" used?       If it was to mean "roughly equal" I'ld have expected to see (~=).   If it was "not equal" then I'ld expect "!=" or "<>".     But "=/=" isn't intuitive to me.

Which exchange sets the price that the other one  will catch up with?

You presume prices always equilibrate?   That will not always happen.  And it has little to do with trading volume.   Instead, various differences between exchanges are reflected in the price.    If there was zero friction between moving funds to and from exchanges, the prices would be the same.   As long as there are differences, the cost (or savings) of those differences are reflected in the exchange rate.

Now a spike or drop in volume (or urgency) may cause the degree of difference between the exchanges to grow or shrink over time but generally the exchange rate will move up or down at roughly the same level between the exchanges.

As far as determining a single "current market price" for bitcoin, currently Mt. Gox must be seen as an outlier but those bids are real so it cannot be entirely dismissed.   If you notice, both Coindesk's Bitcoin Price Indicator (BPI) and BItPay's exchange rate -- each computed with slightly different approaches yet seem to always land within about 1% of each other:
402  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: List of court cases, complaints, regulatory actions, etc. on: October 09, 2013, 06:35:04 AM
Since the description of this thread includes interactions with "regulators", ...

And another one:

SEC FORM D - Notice of Exempt Offering of Securities
by Bitcoin Investment Trust
October 4, 2013
Location: New York, NY USA

Abstract:  New Notice, Date of First Sale: 2013-09-25, Total Amount Sold: $2,542,818 USD

403  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: List of court cases, complaints, regulatory actions, etc. on: October 09, 2013, 06:31:44 AM
Since the description of this thread includes interactions with "regulators", ...

October 8, 2013
Location: Washington D.C. (Filing with SEC)

Abstract: Preliminary prospectus of the WINKLEVOSS BITCOIN TRUST

404  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: List of exchanges on: October 09, 2013, 03:27:58 AM
Please list more exchanges and If possible make this thread sticky,it would be helpful for new users.

Payward's Kraken supports trading of XBT (bitcoin), XLTLTC (litecoin), XVN (Ven), USD, and EUR.

To be clear, these that you've listed are exchanges which support trading of alt-currencies.  The list of exchanges where Bitcoin is traded varies significantly:
405  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: #BitcoinAfrica -- your help required! on: October 08, 2013, 09:06:08 PM
Therefore we are in an urgent need of exchangers, who would like to exchange bitcoins to cash in each country.

So Borja will be carrying the local currency in each country?  Or US dollars?  Or Huh

Also, a couple of related links:


 -  <-- Bitcoin exchange on wheels
406  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Hardware device and protocol for seeding and verifying Provably Fair gaming on: October 08, 2013, 06:56:59 PM
In a very brief chat with someone familiar with casino operations I inquired about the potential that some day a player-owned device would be used to participate in "provably fair" gaming on physical gaming systems (e.g., video slots, video poker machines, etc.)    I was told that the use of mobile phones and other electronics were not permitted in certain areas of a casino.   The purpose of that was to prevent player cheating at table games and for restrictions related to the casino's sportsbook.

The most interesting part of the conversation was the assertion that players should not be worried about the casino cheating.  "Just trust us".  Heh, we've heard that before.
407  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: List of court cases, complaints, regulatory actions, etc. on: October 08, 2013, 03:06:16 PM
I don't know at which point to stop posting about new cases where the only part where Bitcoin is relevant is that it was used as the type of currency.  Here is one of those, but it is probably significant enough:

United States of America v. STEVEN LLOYD SADLER and JENNA M. WHITE
October 2, 2013
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Abstract: Selling through the Silk Road, vendor "Nod" (Sadler and White) were charged with conspiracy to distribute drugs, including over 2 kilos of cocaine, illegally.   

The only reference to Bitcoin was this:

22. As a further measure to protect the anonymity of its users, the Silk Road requires all transaction to be conducted in Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is an electronic, cryptographically based currency that had no association with banks or a government.  Bitcoin is used because it is difficult to track and easy to move online.

 - (browser-friendly PDF viewer)

There was a separate bust of Silk Road sellers, this time in the UK, but Bitcoin was not specifically mentioned:

Four UK men arrested over Silk Road links
408  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 07, 2013, 09:35:21 PM
Pick the right Alt Coin with PoW/PoS.. like PPC or YAC...
Fork it, make it Spanish... and launch, baby, launch.

I'll agree with that.   A straight PoW-based alt will get clobbered by a 51% attack if it starts getting used in commerce (and thus growing to have sufficient value to make it worth performing the attack) prior to having sufficient hashing capacity to reduce any economic benefit to performing the attack.
409  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: BCTIP - Printable Bitcoin Tips on: October 07, 2013, 08:51:56 PM
It is recommended to give BCTip in addition to the regular tips

At the Crypto Currency Conference this past weekend there was an event on Friday at BitPay's offices and they had a tablet set up so tips in Bitcoin to the bartenders could be accepted:

However, ... the bartenders were serving customers faster than tippers were tipping -- (and who wants to stand there sending a tip after you finally got booze in your hands anyways), so having some BCTips with me really would have been useful.    I wish I had thought to print some up ahead of time.  

And then the cocktail hour on Saturday evening had only a regular tip jar, so there was no bitcoin tipping (though the bartender said she had plenty of people ask to give bitcoin tips).   There too these BCTips would have come in handy!   i did have a paper wallet funded with some tip-sized amount and offered to give that as a tip but the process to redeem it (i.e., installing an app, sweeping the funds, etc.)  was beyond what the bartender wanted to hear.

There's definitely a place for these!
410  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 07, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
Now let me ask you, would you sell your BTCs for bolivares?

If I had plans to make purchases with bolivares, and I could get them at a 20% discount simply by making a trade, exchanging my Bitcoins locally for bolivares, then yes I would sell my BTCs.  This is presuming, of course, that I could buy or earn more bitcoins to replenish my Bitcoin position ... without having to pay such a premium.

So not every person needs to be able to convert bolivares to bitcoins.  There are some who have cash outside of Venezula but spend domestically -- so they would be wise then to buy bitcoins with those funds and trade those coins locally for bolivares.   Or take the example of the graphic designer who essentially has a service that can be exported.  The designer can ask the employer to pay using Bitcoin and offer a 10% discount even, and still come out ahead (in terms of the number of bolivares earned) if those coins can then be sold to a buyer who will pay a 20% premium.
411  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Money2020, October 6-10, 2013 - Speakers list filled with Bitcoin and Ripple on: October 07, 2013, 03:01:34 PM
Bitcoin sets the agenda on day one of Money2020 conference
412  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 02, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
Bitcoin gets more centralized every day and Ripple WTF?

Ripple isn't the issuer.  The issuer is the neighbor that you trust to really be holding the 500 silver dimes that she claims to be holding (which the 25 DYM digital vouchers you bought from her are backed by).  You know this is true because you stop over unannounced and ask her to show them to you and she can (or she can't and now you know who not to trust).

So yes ... Ripple is a decentralized method to get an asset-backed digital currency up and running.   If this region-specific currency gets traction and you want something with less central control, you can then run your own validators (possible now that Ripple is open source), or you go with Open Transactions then.
413  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 02, 2013, 11:02:39 PM
I really don't know why it is so hard to understand our situation.

We understand your situation, just that Bitcoin IS the best answer.

Somehow you believe that this VenzuelanCoin will be cheapter to acquire and then use than Bitcoin.   You'll probably need to get hit over the head a few times before you figure out that it hurts. but VenzuelanCoin, if it is mined using proof-of-work will cost the exact same to mine as Bitcoin and Litecoin, etc.   i.e., mining capacity will rise until there is little or no profit from mining.

More importantly, you are dismissing the vulnerability to a 51% attack.

Bitcoins do cross the border into Venezuela when there are buyers paying a premium.   If that bitcoin buyer is paying VEF, then some smart cookie will do arbitrage by selling BTCs for VEFs at a premium and then using those VEFs to pay for goods and services locally in Venezuela, essentially getting those at a discount.   Trust me, ... if you are willing to pay $12K worth of bolivar (VEFs) in exchange for about $10K of BTCs, then someone with access to BTCs will certainly emerge to sell to you.  This is because that person can then turn around and maybe buy a vehicle worth $12K with your $12K worth of VEFs.

Sure, that lets the person with access to BTCs buy a $12K vehicle with just $10K worth of BTCs, but that's the cost for getting liquidity into your market.     Merchants then would be advised to give a 20% discount for paying with Bitcoin so that the bitcoins get traded locally then.

I doubt 20% is even needed, ... maybe 10% is sufficient -- especially over time.  Trust the market.  It works.  I do understand it sucks for you to have to pay $12K worth of bolivar to get $10K of BTC.  But if those $12K worth of bolivar are being devalued, they'll only be worth $10K in a few months anyways so you might as well make the bid offer now so that down the road you have the BTCs and not the VEFs.
414  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: List of court cases, complaints, regulatory actions, etc. on: October 02, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
United States of America v. ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT a/k/a Dread Pirate Roberts a/k/a Silk Road
September 27, 2013
Location: Southern District of New York

Abstract: FBI files complaint against founder and operator of Silk Road market with narcotics trafficking conspiracy, computer hacking conspiracy, and money laundering conspiracy.

Silk Road had 957,079 registered users who did 1.2 million transactions between February of 2011 and July of 2013, the FBI says.

Note, the source of the complaint is from security researcher Brian K Rebs' website, so this URL is tentative:

 - (Primary discussion thread on this is the Press board)
415  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 02, 2013, 01:39:44 AM
So, slowly we change our shitty bolivares for XVEs and in a matter of years we may be able to start an exchange to trade XBTs for XVEs, you know, like in a real world monetary system (without govt intervention of course).

Venezuela might be a good place where something like Ripple becomes incredibly useful.  If your goal is simply to trade without being forced to use VEFs, what could emerge are local issuers of commodity-backed digital vouchers on Ripple.

Take a look at the DYM issue on Ripple as an example:

That uses pre-1965 U.S. silver dimes ("junk silver") as the commodity.   But it could be anything that the issuer would store and then issue the vouchers that can be redeemed for the underlying commodity.   The commodities could include items easily purchased with VEFs today yet are not that difficult to warehouse.  This would include bottles of liquor, cartons of cigarettes, boxes of diapers, postage stamps, even rolls of toilet paper if nothing else.   So you'ld have a single currency issue for each of these commodity items but there would be multiple issuers for the same commodity.

Of course, other commodities sourced locally like coffee beans would be fantastic but you don't want to use something perishable.
416  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Limit mining a new alt-coin to a specific country. on: October 02, 2013, 01:12:31 AM
limiting the mining and trading to a specific country, in this case Venezuela.

Is that a good idea or even possible?

No and no.

Technically, there's no way to know from where (geographically) a valid hash originated.

So you'ld be open to the world -- and vulnerable to a 51% attack.

No, we can not buy BTCs (the main purpose of a world currency like BTC) because we have no access to dollars, euros, yens or whatever strong currencies and nobody takes our bolivares.

What you have is friction, but not a brick wall.    When there is profit potential, suppliers of bitcoins (who accept VEF) will emerge.  This means if a buyer is willing to pay a premium to buy BTCs with VEF, some other party with bitcoins to sell will emerge to take those VEFs and use those VEF locally to pay for consumption.   The larger the premium the greater the incentive for these sellers to emerge.   For instance, a business in Venezuela that exports goods or services (e.g., a graphics designer with customers abroad) may ask for Bitcoin as payment (or offer a discount if payment is made in bitcoins) to obtain a supply of coins.  Those can then be sold locally at a premium which more than offsets the discount the merchant might have had to offer to incent some of their customers to pay with Bitcoin.

If Bitcoin buyers in Venezuela are only willing to pay a little premium then there won't be much supply.  But a larger premium will be the incentive that results in an adequate supply arriving.

Now, having said this, ... understand that there's nothing stopping anyone from attempting some regional crypto currency.   There are several that have already been tried with others being attempted now.  Here's one:

But know one thing, the risk of loss due to a 51% attack (if it is a proof-of-work based cryptocurrency) and volatility are higher with this regional alt currency than with Bitcoin.  Do you really want to expose your neighbors to these risks of significant financial loss?  
417  Local / Press & News from India / RBI spokesperson misunderstands what "legal tender" refers to? on: October 01, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
The recent article by Ankit Ajmera had this:

The Reserve Bank of India, for instance, has not yet formulated regulations to govern trading or profits generated from Bitcoins. An RBI spokesperson told Mirror over email that the RBI doesn't consider Bitcoin legal tender and, therefore "trading in Bitcoin is not legal. Obviously, there cannot be regulations from RBI for an illegal activity. People who use it, do so at their own risk and responsibility."


In the U.S., legal tender refers to what forms of money cannot be refused by a creditor for extinguishing a debt.  Legal tender does not dictate what can be used as money or currency.

Is the use of this term different in India?

This was in quotes, so presumably this is what Mr. Ajmera received in the e-mail from the RBI.

I can't believe a person would be spokesperson for RBI and have misunderstood what the term "legal tender" refers to, but it is possible.

Has anyone inquired (or if not, would anyone inquire) with the reporter and/or the RBI spokesperson to get clarification on this?
418  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Rogue bitcoin nodes. on: October 01, 2013, 06:16:40 PM
The government can own 99.999% of all the nodes, but because no real commerce will be done with those nodes it does not matter.

From a related thread:

Short summary: An attacker could run tens of thousands of Bitcoin clients to isolate certain nodes from the network and then double-spend his coins.

That's actually a very hard attack to successfully pull off; I file it under "theoretically worrisome, but practically not a high priority."

It is hard because: [...]
419  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: - Introducing new Bitcoin mining forecast and ROI calculator on: October 01, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
Don't hesitate to ask questions. Your suggestions are very welcomed!
Hope it can help you to save on ASIC pre-orders.

If those default numbers are anywhere what will happen, then that is possibly the most depressing chart for anyone who already owns or has on order any mining hardware whatsoever!
420  Other / Meta / Re: "Satoshi Square" local in-person bitcoin exchanges "Currency Exchange" subcats? on: September 30, 2013, 11:27:17 PM
Marketplace>Currency Exchange is perfect to make sub-forums for major cities.

The list is growing:

There is the weekly (Monday) Satoshi Square meetup in NYC (yesterday's was hosted at EVR).
 -  <-- For info on location

Here's the Project Buttonwood trading site for NYC:

The next L.A. Satoshi Square meetup is this Thursday (July 25th, 2013) downtown (Grand Park):

The Buttonwood San Francisco occurs weekly.  The next event is Thursday, July 25th, 2013:

The first Buttonwood-style event in Berlin will be July 29th:

The first Miami Satoshi Square will be today (July 23rd, 2013):

The first Toronto Satoshi Square will be next Monday, July 29th, 2013:

There is a weekly trading event, "Talk 'N Trade" in San Diego (Tuesdays):

[Update: And now also Singapore:

Singapore's 1st Buttonwood - meetup event Aug 1

 - ]

[Update 2: And Panama: ]

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