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1081  Other / Off-topic / Re: UFO Pictures on: October 08, 2014, 09:28:11 PM
I was a skeptic. But these blurry, unattributed photos have convinced me to throw out all modern science!  Cheesy

 Angry

Modern science isn't supposed to be good whatsoever at exploring and explaining rare events specifically because they are...rare (unreplicable).

I'm not saying I believe these photos are real, but if I believed they did, why on Earth would you need to throw out all modern science?
1082  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will this weekend see the make or break of BTC? on: October 08, 2014, 02:17:26 PM
You're right, the next weekend is critical.

Why?
1083  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: The reason why i think bitcoin is doomed... on: October 08, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
I think bitcoin is doomed to fail in all it's skeleton and purpose of anonimacy.

Why i think this?
Bitcoin ATM's are being placed in many countries as we speak...
What is gonna happen?
Well good things and bad things:
One good thing is that you can pay with the so called security and your money not being stolen from your wallet.
A bad thing is that muggers and robers can now insert their stolen cash into an ATM and make disappear without a trace...
Alot of people are going to know about bitcoin and are going to put their money into foreigner offshore banks so less taxes for the goverment.
(less taxes for the goverment is a good thing? No it's not 'cause they need to pay us later our retirement cash when we are older.)

All i see happening is corruption being the central door in bitcoin.
So what is exactly going to happen when this all goes from white into black?
One thing is gonna happen it's either they are going to be controlled by the banks or goverments or they are just gonna be banned forever.


I do know alot has been spoken about this. But still theres no information on how this "bitcoin economy" would ever work in society nowadays.
As for me i do think they are going to END soon and that goverments will see the source code as a way to do safer and legitimate/controlled payments in the near future and who knows  if one bad world law comes around and burns down the "offshore banks" (that would be too much to wish for as banks themselfs love them too).


Just tell me if you guys just ignore my point of view of just agree that bitcoin is no safe haven.

Of all the scenarios you could choose from that would spell doom for BTC, you pick ATMs, bitcoins for muggers, and tax evasion?

I'm also confused when you say "...there's no information on how this 'bitcoin economy' would ever work in society nowadays."  I mean...look around.  Here it is, working.
1084  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will this weekend see the make or break of BTC? on: October 08, 2014, 02:10:04 PM
My expectation is that a weekend won't make or break BTC.
1085  Other / Meta / Re: cooldgamer abuse of the trust system on: October 07, 2014, 08:56:27 PM
ok, i'm sorry.

A nice start to see Smiley

BTW, if you're interested, I'd exchange a litecoin for an equivalent amount of BTC later this evening.
1086  Economy / Speculation / Re: Stop using the term "weak hands" on: October 07, 2014, 08:44:33 PM
Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Also, what happens if another exchange (maybe btc-e??) goes down.  BTC couldnt handle that.

Good luck to holders though.

You're a MASSIVE fail. How the fuck did you even figure out how to get on the internet?? Weak hands they are! No other words to call them. Smart hands are buying and holding. Most people in the world think about long term. "Where am I going to be in" 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. The smart hands are those people who think big and long. You're a weak hand looking for a quick buck. And like so many before you and many to come the bitcoin game slaughtered you.

So sad... Maybe you should give Forex a go at it.

#ToTheMoon

Well, not even close, but good try!  Smart hands made money on the up swings, like I did, and got out at the signs of trouble, like I did.

Never did I say btc was going away, but short term there is no indications at all of price increase.

And yeah I guess I wasn't thinking long term when I got a college degree, invested in real estate...jeez I should just beg you for advice...oh wait your just another idiot whos upset they are losing more money, and you try to make yourself feel better by saying your a strong hand.  

Ohh wow.. A college degree? I mean... Really?? LOL...

BTW.. I bought my first btc at < $15 and mined blocks of BTC when it was cheap.

I'll never lose a penny on crypto.


All this post does is reinforce how lucky you are.  You're laughing at someone who invested in a college degree?  Do you understand how absurd this sounds?  You aren't a genius for getting in under $15.  I should know.  I was there.  

 
1087  Other / Meta / Re: cooldgamer abuse of the trust system on: October 07, 2014, 07:01:37 PM
I wasn't trying to buy trust . jesus get it through your head

So you don't want to be trusted at all?  Because who is going to trust an angry guy with a chip on his shoulder who yells at everybody and can't control himself?

Yeah i wanted to be trusted. thats kinda what this whole thing is about. I am angry because i'm under attack for what i perceive to be minor. Now my reputation contains negative feedbacks, i am ruined.

I was giving you full benefit of the doubt until you started backtracking and saying:
Quote
I wasn't trying to buy trust . jesus get it through your head

And now here you are saying "Yeah I wanted to be trusted."

One of those two statements is dishonest.    Best of luck, though!  My advice would be to apologize.  To me, this certainly wouldn't be a reason to not trust you indefinitely if you demonstrate trust in other ways. 

Bottom line is that nobody here knows for certain what your intentions are/would be if you were successful in buying positive feedback, but I think there's a good chance you were just trying to be creative in building your trust more quickly.  There are a lot of reasons that someone would want to do this that don't involve scamming others.
1088  Economy / Speculation / Re: Stop using the term "weak hands" on: October 07, 2014, 06:44:03 PM
How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?


Clearly people seem to think they are superior to others on here if they hold, instead of getting out and waiting for the real rock bottom to hit, which is what the real smart money would be doing.  Also waiting for any signs of life, and waiting for fraudulent trading activities to be uncovered.  There is too much still going on to not think btc can crash further down to $100 or less.  Then smart money will come in when the dust has settled.

Now you're advocating attempting to catch a knife? Brilliant...

That doesn't sound at all like what he's advocating.  I think he's advocating for letting the knife fall and watching to see how it lands first.
1089  Other / Off-topic / Re: Lucid Dreaming on: October 07, 2014, 06:08:22 AM
If someone who has the ability to lucid dream at will, or at least frequently, reads this post, I would appreciate some feedback from your experience:

I've had 3 lucid dreams, two of which I won't discuss.  The 3rd time was by far the most interesting because I was cognizant enough to try a few *tests."

I'm from the Midwest but I attended the first 2 1/2 years of undergrad study in California.  After moving back to the Midwest, I had a dream wherein I was in a familiar place on the beaches along the Pacific Coast with mountain ranges in the backdrop.  However, something about the mountains was noticeably "off" from my normal recollection of that place as I had experienced it in real life, and so that's what triggered my awareness that I was dreaming.

I remember that at the instant I recognized I was dreaming, everything felt *extremely* real and life-like.  I *was* there, and nobody can convince me otherwise.  In the dream, my consciousness was absolutely in a real physical space.  There was, however, a really eerie quality to the realness which was accompanied by a subtle-but-noticeable low-frequency buzzing sound along with an equally subtle-but-noticeable sensation of pressure in my head, almost like a very very weak sinus headache.

Realizing that I was dreaming but hadn't woken up yet, I knew I was lucid, and so I decided to try a few different things to see what would happen.

I was shocked to find how real things actually were.  A literal 10-15 seconds passed with me standing on the beach, looking around me, trying to think of some clever ways to manipulate my situation.

The interesting thing is that I couldn't.  Well, at least not entirely.  The first thing I did was look at the clouds in the sky and try to control them by shifting them around.  I really couldn't do much with the whole cloud, but I found that very small parts of the cloud along the edges were all that I could manipulate.  The best I could manage was to make very small swirls and nudge the edges a bit, as if I was dipping an invisible finger into the cloud and playing with it.

Next, I shifted my attention to the ground, and I tried to move the sand around and draw things in the sand with my mind.  I couldn't, or well, at least not entirely.  Similar to the cloud, I was only able to make small changes, and at best I could only move a few dozen or a few hundred grains of sand around at a time.  Nothing major at all.

Then, I thought about flying.  From here on out, the dream still blows my mind to this day.

This particular section of beach was aligned next to a series of bluffs that run alongside the edge of the ocean.  The bluffs themselves are about 50 feet-or-so in height.  For some reason, I couldn't just take off from where I was and fly.  So, I thought about running to the edge of the bluff, jumping off, and, knowing and trusting in the fact that I was dreaming, I would fly.

So, I started sprinting to the edge of the bluff.  As soon as I got to the edge, I got *very* scared.  Everything was real -- too real -- and I simply knew that I couldn't jump off the bluff.  I knew that if I did, I would die.  To this day, I consider it *very* plausible that if I had decided to jump off the bluff in my dream, I would have fallen and killed myself in real life.  

But things get weirder.  I got a really, really crazy idea.  I decided to try to call my real-life best friend from my dream cell phone.

I pulled my cell out of my pocket, opened it up (it was a flip-phone at the time), and looked at it.  However, none of the numbers on the phone made sense.  Actually, all the numbers on the phone had changed to weird, alien- or Egyptian-like hieroglyphic symbols.  Additionally, the service provider shown at the top of my screen, "Verizon Wireless,"  was changed to "NEW CAPITAL."  

When I read the words "NEW CAPITAL" that was the very first thing that started to make me lose control of the lucid dream.  I then looked out into the ocean, and instead of only seeing water and the series of Channel Islands in the distance off the coast, I also saw three enormous concrete columns, almost like broken columns of the Greek Acropolis, standing in the middle of the ocean about 500 feet out from shore and standing maybe about 200 feet tall.  The sheer weirdness of this sight coupled was enough to fully make me lose control of the lucid dream, and I woke up a few seconds later feeling very, very confused.

Next time try to look at your hands to get more lucid, that is what I have heard. The dream sounds awesome, but I think it is weird how all dreams end and you have to feel like "I just read a person's dream". We need to find a way to bring that in to Ayahuasca ceremonies so that there is a real finale to every experience.

That was a pretty cool read though. Keep posting if you have more.

Thanks!  If the opportunity arises I'll test the hand thing.  I associate hands with words like 'controlling' among other things, so maybe that has something to do with it.

To me, the most interesting aspect of my dream was the contrast between my level of lucidity and my level of control.  In another lucid dream that I had as a child (maybe age 9-12ish?) I was able to fly immediately almost instantaneously the moment that I wanted to.  Although it's difficult to compare the two dreams due to my age difference, my recollection of this other lucid dream is still fairly good, especially since the dream itself was only 15-20 seconds or so before I lost control of it.  I do recall being less lucid in terms of my awareness, though again I imagine some of that has to do with age and the difference in my approach at the time to evaluating the dream.

Also, I've heard elsewhere that people have similar issue with numbers in dreams.  In particular, one of my friends states he's had several if not many dreams involving numbers, but the 'numbers' never made any sense and could never appear as a pure abstract number.  They were always either totally unintelligible, or they turned into symbols.
1090  Other / Off-topic / Re: Lucid Dreaming on: October 07, 2014, 05:18:10 AM
If someone who has the ability to lucid dream at will, or at least frequently, reads this post, I would appreciate some feedback from your experience:

I've had 3 lucid dreams, two of which I won't discuss.  The 3rd time was by far the most interesting because I was cognizant enough to try a few *tests."

I'm from the Midwest but I attended the first 2 1/2 years of undergrad study in California.  After moving back to the Midwest, I had a dream wherein I was in a familiar place on the beaches along the Pacific Coast with mountain ranges in the backdrop.  However, something about the mountains was noticeably "off" from my normal recollection of that place as I had experienced it in real life, and so that's what triggered my awareness that I was dreaming.

I remember that at the instant I recognized I was dreaming, everything felt *extremely* real and life-like.  I *was* there, and nobody can convince me otherwise.  In the dream, my consciousness was absolutely in a real physical space.  There was, however, a really eerie quality to the realness which was accompanied by a subtle-but-noticeable low-frequency buzzing sound along with an equally subtle-but-noticeable sensation of pressure in my head, almost like a very very weak sinus headache.

Realizing that I was dreaming but hadn't woken up yet, I knew I was lucid, and so I decided to try a few different things to see what would happen.

I was shocked to find how real things actually were.  A literal 10-15 seconds passed with me standing on the beach, looking around me, trying to think of some clever ways to manipulate my situation.

The interesting thing is that I couldn't.  Well, at least not entirely.  The first thing I did was look at the clouds in the sky and try to control them by shifting them around.  I really couldn't do much with the whole cloud, but I found that very small parts of the cloud along the edges were all that I could manipulate.  The best I could manage was to make very small swirls and nudge the edges a bit, as if I was dipping an invisible finger into the cloud and playing with it.

Next, I shifted my attention to the ground, and I tried to move the sand around and draw things in the sand with my mind.  I couldn't, or well, at least not entirely.  Similar to the cloud, I was only able to make small changes, and at best I could only move a few dozen or a few hundred grains of sand around at a time.  Nothing major at all.

Then, I thought about flying.  From here on out, the dream still blows my mind to this day.

This particular section of beach was aligned next to a series of bluffs that run alongside the edge of the ocean.  The bluffs themselves are about 50 feet-or-so in height.  For some reason, I couldn't just take off from where I was and fly.  So, I thought about running to the edge of the bluff, jumping off, and, knowing and trusting in the fact that I was dreaming, I would fly.

So, I started sprinting to the edge of the bluff.  As soon as I got to the edge, I got *very* scared.  Everything was real -- too real -- and I simply knew that I couldn't jump off the bluff.  I knew that if I did, I would die.  To this day, I consider it *very* plausible that if I had decided to jump off the bluff in my dream, I would have fallen and killed myself in real life.  

But things get weirder.  I got a really, really crazy idea.  I decided to try to call my real-life best friend from my dream cell phone.

I pulled my cell out of my pocket, opened it up (it was a flip-phone at the time), and looked at it.  However, none of the numbers on the phone made sense.  Actually, all the numbers on the phone had changed to weird, alien- or Egyptian-like hieroglyphic symbols.  Additionally, the service provider shown at the top of my screen, "Verizon Wireless,"  was changed to "NEW CAPITAL."  

When I read the words "NEW CAPITAL" that was the very first thing that started to make me lose control of the lucid dream.  I then looked out into the ocean, and instead of only seeing water and the series of Channel Islands in the distance off the coast, I also saw three enormous concrete columns, almost like broken columns of the Greek Acropolis, standing in the middle of the ocean about 500 feet out from shore and standing maybe about 200 feet tall.  The sheer weirdness of this sight coupled was enough to fully make me lose control of the lucid dream, and I woke up a few seconds later feeling very, very confused.
1091  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: October 07, 2014, 04:57:31 AM
Instead of that former, answer that following: What makes "death" significant?

The absolute most significant thing about death is, death locks one into his belief position regarding God. If one believes in God for salvation at the time of death, he will receive salvation. If he does not believe in God for salvation, he will lose salvation.

Other than that, there are many things that make death significant. Some of them hold significance for relatives of the deceased. Why do you ask this?

Smiley
Fear of being afraid is that sole sustenance of death.

Never heard it phrased like this before.
1092  Economy / Speculation / Re: Stop using the term "weak hands" on: October 06, 2014, 09:36:48 PM
they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.



Please stop with this already. It's an unrealized loss, which doesn't make it any less real.

unrealized... how do you know that it won't go up again? magic ass ball? that thing is true, but maybe the sentence is not completed, i repeat it here

until there is a chance to go up again, you won't lose anything if you just hold and don't sell for less than you paid

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.


Are you literally stupid?

I mean literally, like IQ under 90?

Because you do realise what unrealised losses are?

Or not?

How dumb are you?

read above and tell me how much is your QI now, i think is lower than 90, probably the same number without the zero


A few things about this post:

1)  If you've been holding in a down market, then two bad things have happened to you.  First, you've lost purchasing power.  Second, you haven't even realized your loss so that you can write it off on your taxes this year.  It's a really bad habit to get into to try to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a good investor and you're making money when your position is continually losing ground.

2)  Saying "how do you know it won't go up again?" is a question that holds as much weight as "how do you know it won't keep going down?"  It means nothing.   There is no information to pull from it that can help you to make a rational decision.  Furthermore, there are no magic rules of investing that dictate an investment must appreciate after significant periods of depreciation.  

3)  This is more of a personal observation, but I really think that a lot of people's investment decisions are heavily influenced by discussions on this forum, and not in a good way.  I see a lot of permabulls and permabears, but it's shockingly uncommon to read posts that aren't emotionally loaded and don't veer to one extreme or the other.  For a lot of people, there is no middle ground.

4) "Until there is a chance to go up again..."?  What the hell?   I don't even know where to begin with this. *Every* moment is a chance for BTC to up again.  Where have you been the past 10-11 months?  Bitcoin isn't dropping in price due to chance, just as Bitcoin didn't shoot past $1000 USD by chance.  Focus on *real* things.  Instead of thinking about the "chance" that BTC might go up again, maybe you should first ask yourself why you aren't buying all the BTC you can right now.   It might be a good starting place as it may provide insight as to why everyone else isn't out buying up all the BTC.

5)  Here's a thought experiment for you:  How about you sell all of your belongings for BTC and hold them indefinitely?  According to your logic, this will preserve your wealth for infinite time (as long as you don't sell).  Ingenious, right?  Roll Eyes

i'm in fact all in with btc(well not totally, i still have my house lol), i still think that in a market like this until you don't sell you can't lose, because the chance to see a pump again are high enough

you don't need a wall of text to explain this, it's so simple, and for your last sentence, i can just reply with "don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla", this doesn't make my point less valid at all

that quote is just misleading, it should be "until the coin isn't dead if you don't sell you don't lose anything", no one said that in that quote is implied that the coin can't die

If you can afford to do so and don't mind losing your investment, then that's fine.   But your reply, "Don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla," is irrelevant to the issue of gain or loss.  The question is whether holding in a down market yields a loss, not whether you're okay with it.

I think you're incorrect in that my last point doesn't make yours less valid.  It does, because it's the exact same action you took to reach your current position, only to an extreme degree.  

But seriously, dude, come on.   Even though unrealized gains/losses function the same way in stock trading, bitcoins are currency!  How are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't lost anything when you're holding money that's depreciating in value before your own eyes?!

well if you prefer i can tell you that i have less now because bitcoin declined , but it doesn't mean that i need to panic sell because of that, until i believe in it and i'm willing to hold my "lose" has a chance to come back

you know... "It's not dead until it's really dead"

All of that's fine, and I agree, it's just not what the issue originally was.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking that holding somehow makes you immune to changes in the price-per-unit of your investment.

actually it's exactly the issue because...

it make me kinda immune if the coin survive and go up, which is what i believe; we continuously base our life on some assumptions, this is why life is a gamble itself

it's not absolutely immue, i could agree, but it is certainly relative

Here's the thing: I think you're smart enough that you do understand unrealized gains and losses, but to me it seems that you are (likely without realizing it) sugar coating the issue by whatever means possible, and it does your analysis a disservice.

First, let me say that I truly do not care whether you buy or sell, and in fact I do hope you make good, profitable trading decisions for yourself.  All I'm suggesting is that you look at the way you're approaching the issue.

In your last post, you said, "It makes me kinda immune" and also "it's not absolutely immune" and also "certainly relative."  And then, you bring up assumptions as if to say that you are forced between two assumptions, that either the price will continue to fall, or it will go up.  And, since either is an unknown and it is an assumption, you feel comfortable in your position because for all you know it's just as good as the other one.

But what you're ignoring are the things that are knowable right now and that aren't assumptions.  It's not a matter of perspective what unrealized gains and losses mean for your total and liquid assets.  There is no ambiguity, only raw numbers.

I think you also know this too, but it just seems to me you're sacrificing what you know for what you don't.
1093  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 06, 2014, 08:41:09 PM
Should you sell?  Should you buy?  Should you HODL?  Should you diversify?

The OP starts out quite nicely and balanced. But then it goes on listing only arguments, some of them invalid, why you should get out ASAP.

If you are using entropy as a metaphor, you should also note that decreasing entropy does not mean that the system is getting in any way "better" and increasing entropy does not mean the opposite. If you start up a power plant, it's entropy certainly increases, but that is how you get it to generate electrical output.

Biased. Ignored.

Except I didn't.  Literally the only concrete advice given in the entire post is not not take extreme positions, e.g. 100% HODL or 100% sell.

Also, volatility was the indicator I put forth as a measure of systemic instability, not entropy.

Edit:  Since when did all the legendaries become the cheerleaders from Bring it On?
1094  Economy / Speculation / Re: Stop using the term "weak hands" on: October 06, 2014, 07:42:44 PM
they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.



Please stop with this already. It's an unrealized loss, which doesn't make it any less real.

unrealized... how do you know that it won't go up again? magic ass ball? that thing is true, but maybe the sentence is not completed, i repeat it here

until there is a chance to go up again, you won't lose anything if you just hold and don't sell for less than you paid

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.


Are you literally stupid?

I mean literally, like IQ under 90?

Because you do realise what unrealised losses are?

Or not?

How dumb are you?

read above and tell me how much is your QI now, i think is lower than 90, probably the same number without the zero


A few things about this post:

1)  If you've been holding in a down market, then two bad things have happened to you.  First, you've lost purchasing power.  Second, you haven't even realized your loss so that you can write it off on your taxes this year.  It's a really bad habit to get into to try to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a good investor and you're making money when your position is continually losing ground.

2)  Saying "how do you know it won't go up again?" is a question that holds as much weight as "how do you know it won't keep going down?"  It means nothing.   There is no information to pull from it that can help you to make a rational decision.  Furthermore, there are no magic rules of investing that dictate an investment must appreciate after significant periods of depreciation.  

3)  This is more of a personal observation, but I really think that a lot of people's investment decisions are heavily influenced by discussions on this forum, and not in a good way.  I see a lot of permabulls and permabears, but it's shockingly uncommon to read posts that aren't emotionally loaded and don't veer to one extreme or the other.  For a lot of people, there is no middle ground.

4) "Until there is a chance to go up again..."?  What the hell?   I don't even know where to begin with this. *Every* moment is a chance for BTC to up again.  Where have you been the past 10-11 months?  Bitcoin isn't dropping in price due to chance, just as Bitcoin didn't shoot past $1000 USD by chance.  Focus on *real* things.  Instead of thinking about the "chance" that BTC might go up again, maybe you should first ask yourself why you aren't buying all the BTC you can right now.   It might be a good starting place as it may provide insight as to why everyone else isn't out buying up all the BTC.

5)  Here's a thought experiment for you:  How about you sell all of your belongings for BTC and hold them indefinitely?  According to your logic, this will preserve your wealth for infinite time (as long as you don't sell).  Ingenious, right?  Roll Eyes

i'm in fact all in with btc(well not totally, i still have my house lol), i still think that in a market like this until you don't sell you can't lose, because the chance to see a pump again are high enough

you don't need a wall of text to explain this, it's so simple, and for your last sentence, i can just reply with "don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla", this doesn't make my point less valid at all

that quote is just misleading, it should be "until the coin isn't dead if you don't sell you don't lose anything", no one said that in that quote is implied that the coin can't die

If you can afford to do so and don't mind losing your investment, then that's fine.   But your reply, "Don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla," is irrelevant to the issue of gain or loss.  The question is whether holding in a down market yields a loss, not whether you're okay with it.

I think you're incorrect in that my last point doesn't make yours less valid.  It does, because it's the exact same action you took to reach your current position, only to an extreme degree.  

But seriously, dude, come on.   Even though unrealized gains/losses function the same way in stock trading, bitcoins are currency!  How are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't lost anything when you're holding money that's depreciating in value before your own eyes?!

well if you prefer i can tell you that i have less now because bitcoin declined , but it doesn't mean that i need to panic sell because of that, until i believe in it and i'm willing to hold my "lose" has a chance to come back

you know... "It's not dead until it's really dead"

All of that's fine, and I agree, it's just not what the issue originally was.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking that holding somehow makes you immune to changes in the price-per-unit of your investment.
1095  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 06, 2014, 07:05:09 PM
I held back on that post because I thought maybe you were just feeling sorry for someone and wanted to add a little advice. I just wanted to frame your post in the context that it isn't a win-lose game... mostly because I admit to being a firm believer in Bitcoin. Now I just need to clarify why I felt it was in remiss.

I don't like watching anyone here panic, or lose money.  It's not a good feeling.  I didn't think that interjecting the word "game" once would actually avert your attention onto that word and blow it up and forget about everything that came before it.  Half of your entire first response to this post fixated on that one word all by itself.  Sorry, I'll rephrase.  I don't still have stake in the "game," but I still have stake in "[insert other arbitrary label that's completely beside the point here]."

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You made good points about history, but then you talked about systemic death and entropy. Misuse of the term entropy is a pet peeve of mine. It's worse than quantum. There's no need to argue about them here.

Here you go, Slick. Here's your entropy:

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enĚtroĚpy
lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme"
synonyms:   deterioration, degeneration, crumbling, decline, degradation, decomposition, breaking down, collapse

It's not misuse.  You made the complaint (that I'll get to in a second) that placing Bitcoin in an accurate context is irrelevant, and then you go and misplace entropy into a context irrelevant to this discussion.  Entropy as a term can be applied more broadly than what you think.

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But I am completely at a loss why you felt you needed to post this in the first place. What was your presumption?

The title of the thread didn't give you any indication?    The title is, "For those who have no idea what to do."  My presumption is that there are people who have no idea what to do.

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Emotions aren't something people need to be talked through by posting, they are what people need to learn to deal with.

Where did you get the impression this was a counseling session?  Although, the OP can help you to deal with emotions by focusing less on what is unknown (which triggers the stressful emotions) and focusing on what is knowable (thereby hopefully alleviating some stress).

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If people are simply speculating without any understanding, then they deserve no advice at all, nor would they want any.

That's what dicks say.  Some people try very hard to understand and don't.

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Better advice would have been to go talk to someone IRL, not try to feel some sense of "internally and externally consistent context" that Bitcoin is somehow part of some machine and that sometimes machine parts fail. I don't see it that way at all. Forgive me for saying this but you had no moral authority to talk about Bitcoin failing as if you understood the emergent complexities of OPEN SOURCE systems. There are no books on this yet. They are being written as this technology and philosophy unfolds.

"...you had no moral authority to talk about Bitcoin failing as if..."

Lol WHAT?!  I don't even.  Who and where the...

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Besides, the post ended up being a rallying post for Bitcoin bashers that agreed with you without even understanding what you were talking about.

You must be really having a bad day.
1096  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 06, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
This is a disheartening post.

Likewise Sad

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It misses so many points that have been discussed many times.

That's why I clearly stated that the OP wasn't exhaustive or even comprehensive in its scope.  But I'm genuinely curious which points you're referring to and how they impact affect what I'm saying.

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Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something.

Oh give me a break. Thanks for just ignoring everything except the last line in the OP which I reluctantly posted to be transparent as possible.  The mere inclusion of that last line unquestionably removes bias from the OP.

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You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation.

You think?!  Thanks, Captain Obvious.  Dude, Systems Theory isn't supposed to lead to speculation no matter what discipline it's applied to.  For example, systems theory as applied to psychology doesn't outline treatment or a course of action, but rather it helps you understand the psychology of a person or group in a context that can be consistently applied again and again.  All your reply shows is that you don't understand the theory or what it's intended for.  I even flatly stated that the OP is extremely general as it uses a theory which can be, and routinely is, applied to literally dozens of various disciplines.  In other words, I never even tried to speculate.

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These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

Now you're just going overboard.  The post is supposed to help people who are struggling to grasp the context of the situation due to intense emotions and/or a host of other factors.  The point is to set Bitcoin into a context that is internally and externally consistent throughout.  I'm not going to do your speculating for you or anyone else, but since I have significant experience with modeling these types of things, I thought this was another way I could contribute.
1097  Other / Off-topic / Re: Guess the age (jokingly) on: October 06, 2014, 12:32:38 AM
19
1098  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 05, 2014, 08:06:45 AM
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.

this is the real message, the rest is blah blah blah

I interpreted this in two ways, either that this is the sole reason I made the OP or that somehow some small knowledge about my trading history is of more value than the rest of the post.  I'm guessing it's the first one, and it's called dutiful disclosure.
1099  Economy / Speculation / Re: Stop using the term "weak hands" on: October 05, 2014, 07:54:24 AM
they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.



Please stop with this already. It's an unrealized loss, which doesn't make it any less real.

unrealized... how do you know that it won't go up again? magic ass ball? that thing is true, but maybe the sentence is not completed, i repeat it here

until there is a chance to go up again, you won't lose anything if you just hold and don't sell for less than you paid

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.


Are you literally stupid?

I mean literally, like IQ under 90?

Because you do realise what unrealised losses are?

Or not?

How dumb are you?

read above and tell me how much is your QI now, i think is lower than 90, probably the same number without the zero


A few things about this post:

1)  If you've been holding in a down market, then two bad things have happened to you.  First, you've lost purchasing power.  Second, you haven't even realized your loss so that you can write it off on your taxes this year.  It's a really bad habit to get into to try to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a good investor and you're making money when your position is continually losing ground.

2)  Saying "how do you know it won't go up again?" is a question that holds as much weight as "how do you know it won't keep going down?"  It means nothing.   There is no information to pull from it that can help you to make a rational decision.  Furthermore, there are no magic rules of investing that dictate an investment must appreciate after significant periods of depreciation.  

3)  This is more of a personal observation, but I really think that a lot of people's investment decisions are heavily influenced by discussions on this forum, and not in a good way.  I see a lot of permabulls and permabears, but it's shockingly uncommon to read posts that aren't emotionally loaded and don't veer to one extreme or the other.  For a lot of people, there is no middle ground.

4) "Until there is a chance to go up again..."?  What the hell?   I don't even know where to begin with this. *Every* moment is a chance for BTC to up again.  Where have you been the past 10-11 months?  Bitcoin isn't dropping in price due to chance, just as Bitcoin didn't shoot past $1000 USD by chance.  Focus on *real* things.  Instead of thinking about the "chance" that BTC might go up again, maybe you should first ask yourself why you aren't buying all the BTC you can right now.   It might be a good starting place as it may provide insight as to why everyone else isn't out buying up all the BTC.

5)  Here's a thought experiment for you:  How about you sell all of your belongings for BTC and hold them indefinitely?  According to your logic, this will preserve your wealth for infinite time (as long as you don't sell).  Ingenious, right?  Roll Eyes

i'm in fact all in with btc(well not totally, i still have my house lol), i still think that in a market like this until you don't sell you can't lose, because the chance to see a pump again are high enough

you don't need a wall of text to explain this, it's so simple, and for your last sentence, i can just reply with "don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla", this doesn't make my point less valid at all

that quote is just misleading, it should be "until the coin isn't dead if you don't sell you don't lose anything", no one said that in that quote is implied that the coin can't die

If you can afford to do so and don't mind losing your investment, then that's fine.   But your reply, "Don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla," is irrelevant to the issue of gain or loss.  The question is whether holding in a down market yields a loss, not whether you're okay with it.

I think you're incorrect in that my last point doesn't make yours less valid.  It does, because it's the exact same action you took to reach your current position, only to an extreme degree.  

But seriously, dude, come on.   Even though unrealized gains/losses function the same way in stock trading, bitcoins are currency!  How are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't lost anything when you're holding money that's depreciating in value before your own eyes?!
1100  Economy / Speculation / Re: For those who have no idea what to do on: October 05, 2014, 07:13:27 AM
**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.


When did you get in?


Good post, glad I read it

I got into Bitcoin June 2011.

Thank you Smiley
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