Nobody is real sure what his methodology is for paying people back. I'm assuming he's attempting to go through the list and pay each person some, then cycle back through the list again and rinse, repeat. It's been over two weeks since I saw a payment, in fact this has been the longest time period between payments I've seen yet. It's also subject to availability of funds to pay people with and we don't really know what that looks like either.

So we wait.

The time between payments has gotten a LOT longer over the past couple of months. I have been receiving payments probably longer than most, it started a payment every couple of days...now it's been 15 days since my last payment.

It's real slow going.

I'm not sure we are hearing from everyone who is being paid, but it feels like the frequency of payments has dropped a lot since the beginning. No idea whats going on.

In general he hasn't been replying to PMs until he sends payments. The process has been very slow, as the list of people to be refunded has grown. Initially he expected to have me paid out within 40 days, after he first came and offered to refund people their investments. I've been returned 4.5 of the 24.8 I was owed at the time the site shut down, over the past month...and it's been over a week since my last payment. So as the number of people has grown, the length of time it'll take for refunds to happen has grown exponentially.

All we can do is wait. He's not going anywhere, this mob won't let him.

LOL...Potcoin, because potheads want a coin that says Pot, so they aren't confused? What exactly do they bring to Bitcoin?

The same could be said of most other coins in the OP. The goal: Pump.

When I say supply, I mean on the exchanges...which portion of the supply is being used to define the price/market for the coin. That is in constant flux, but the constant selling pressure that has been exerted on Litecoin in the last 3-4 months has been unprecedented.



Because I watch the addresses that are public and the market behavior on a daily basis. All but one of the five largest solo miners have dumped the majority of what they've mined to their wallet addresses. When you look at the launch of the Innosilicon devices, the week after they started deploying in China saw a VERY clear start of the strong extended downtrend we're in. It's like there's a bright flashing neon arrow pointing at that date on Bitcoinwisdom.


I'm referring to Bitcoin's market cap at the time it experienced the ASIC transition, relative to today. But there were FAR, far fewer eyes on Bitcoin at that time than are currently on both it and Litecoin, right now. That and the media have a much greater sway over sentiment than existed when the Bitcoin community was relatively small and very few news outlets reported on it. The entire landscape has changed since then. So the conditions that prevail around Litecoin right now are unlike what Bitcoin had to go through...and it's still holding up, even with a whale dumping his load all over the market, tonight. That's my point...it is going to take a LOT to kill Litecoin off. The market is dealing with some real stiff challenges at the moment and it has resisted a crash.

Things are going to look a lot different by the end of 2014. Time will tell, whose prediction was right.

Supply hasn't stayed the same (supply released into circulation). You currently have over 30% of the entire network hashrate accounted for by just FIVE wallet addresses (solo miners). Over on Coinotron there are two miners with over 6 GH/s in hashrate each, and the next two on the list each have over 3 GH/s.

That has concentrated an abnormally gigantic amount of the block rewards into a very few hands and they are all making a mad dash toward ROI, before the even larger hardware starts shipping this month and next, reducing their percentage of the network to a fraction of what it is today.

But it is an abnormal condition for so few miners to have so much of the new coin production...and it won't remain the case as the network is taken over by ASICs and the hashrate redistributes to something approximating normal. The only other coin to have ever gone through this transition is Bitcoin...and it did it at a time when there were a LOT fewer eyes on it and a whole hell of a lot less money involved.

Realistically, no other coin in existence could hold up under these conditions...but Litecoin has not failed. It has lost some ground in price denominated in dollars, but not nearly as much as one would expect, considering the rampant dumping.

As though its price relative to Bitcoin is an all-encompassing measure of its success?

Good thing we aren't measuring Bitcoin's success that way (relative to the dollar), it's still almost 50% off its high in November...yet I see a LOT of reasons to be bullish on Bitcoin.

There are obvious and well-documented reasons for the drop relative to Bitcoin that have nothing to do with sentiment.

The newsmedia declared Bitcoin dead numerous times in 2013 based on price. They were wrong, too.

Your experience selling 300kh hardware released in February does not give you any specific or applicable knowledge about numbers related to the latest 80mh hardware.

The point of the Dogecoin reference is to help you with your definition of "pitiful."


First of all, what is profitable for someone with 5mh is not the same as what is profitable for someone with 50, in coin switching. The coins they mine are so illiquid that coins sit unexchanged and often by the time the market absorbs them, the price has been driven down to the point where it was less profitable. Yes, I have firsthand experience with this dynamic. Profit switching is only going to get worse.


When the option to find another more profitable coin to mine is no longer there, dumping will no longer be economically feasible. Hoarding will force price to move, as long as the increased strength and growth stimulates interest and press (which it will). It is not a direct correlation, it is symptomatic. Demand drives price. Security and reliability (strength) drives demand.



Don't mix arguments. Price following difficulty or not has zero bearing on the calculation of how much money has been put into hardware infrastructure in the last 6-8 weeks.

You spend a lot of time justifying your points with "everyone knows." The discussion about energy efficiency is not germane to the discussion of security, either. Bitcoin doesn't get it wrong.This supposition you seem to have that we need something with more bells and whistles is symptomatic of the "pump and dump" mentality that has overrun alt coins, where some trivial or pointless (or untenable) "feature" is used to craft a plausible story to back a "pump." They are all houses of cards.

I know you won't be convinced, and I don't feel compelled to try and sway you. You are just wrong , and your conclusions are based not on precedent and facts, but emotional conjecture and, I assume, a motivation (conscious or otherwise) to pump your new favorites by discrediting the reigning #2. You're barking up the wrong tree.

You have no idea how much hardware has been sold (and in what MH/s), first of all...so you're not in a position to make a judgment on whether the hashrate increase is "pitiful" relative to it. You could look at Dogecoin's 10% increase compared to Litecoin's 120% increase in the same amount of time and call THAT pitiful, though.

Coin switching pools are not much more profitable than Litecoin...the reason being, the coins being mined are illiquid. Dump a significant amount and you crash the market for them. Their profitability due to gravity well and Digishield are a constantly moving target. As Litecoin's network expands in strength, it'll become clear that these alts are a waste of time and hashrate.

I'm no noob, I've been watching on a daily basis since early 2013. I've seen what has happened with Bitcoin. Miners continue to pour money into Bitcoin hardware to maintain their footprint in the network. The same will happen with Litecoin. But if you don't see how growth attracts money, I don't know how I can make this point to you. It's what the stock market is built on and it's what triggered Bitcoin's explosive growth. It became something far more than just "hobbyists mining a digital coin on their gaming PC."

If you actually went and did what you proposed and combined the total nethash of all competing Scrypt coins right now on Coinwarz, they MIGHT amount to half of Litecoin's nethash.

And by the way...don't fix my post when you don't know what you're talking about. That $30million number I posted was calculated based on the increase in Litecoin's network hashrate since the introduction of the 80MH/s models from Innosilicon, Zeusminer and Silverfish at an average wholesale cost of $9000 per 80MH/s device. I know you fancy yourself quite the know-it-all here, but you don't have your facts straight.

You haven't been able to sufficiently counter mine, either. Not with facts, anyway...just with counter-suppositions and prognostications.

Sorry, but the fact that around $30 million has been put into dedicated hardware infrastructure in Litecoin over the course of the last 6-8 weeks and a 120% increase in nethash since May 1st (around 340% since January) says more to me than some guy bellowing "Litecoin is dead" on a forum.

It's a good thing people haven't listened to those proclaiming "Bitcoin is dead" every time it had a significant price drop.

The marketing initiatives you are talking about are a preparation for the increase in attention Litecoin is about to receive, when the network blows up over the summer...and it's about to. It's about positioning. Or, we could just passively sit around and say, "CoinHoarder's right, it's all over" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But that wouldn't be terribly smart.

They will have to hold the coin. Basic economics will dictate that, because there will be no other coin for that hashrate to flee to, for profitability. It'll be the same situation as exists in SHA-256 today.

The strength of the network will attract development and capital investment...as has been the case with Bitcoin. Before ASICs made Bitcoin the titan it is today, it was down around $10-12. It was the investment in hardware infrastructure, both on the manufacturer side and the miner side, that attracted all of the capital that has led to Bitcoin's current level of growth (and I'm not talking price, I'm talking venture capital, business interest, products and services, etc...) Hundreds of millions in dedicated hardware infrastructure tells investors, "This should be taken seriously."

You guys act like there's no precedent for this. As though Bitcoin was $500 when ASICs started getting deployed onto its network. In January 2013 when the first Bitcoin ASICs launched, it was $14. The explosive growth of the network and the dedicated hardware infrastructure that was being built for it was what caught peoples' attention (although the Silk Road news reports and Cypress obviously helped).

People look at where Bitcoin is today and think, "Well why isn't Litecoin keeping up?" Forgetting completely the fact that Litecoin is about a year and a half behind Bitcoin and is currently going through the growing pains that Bitcoin went through, at the beginning of 2013. All of that is a distant memory now to Bitcoiners, but the transition of Litecoin to an ASIC-driven network has just started, in earnest. Throughout the rest of 2014, the transition is going to create a bit of a bumpy ride...but the result will be a network with at least ten times the hashrate it started the year with and a very robust, secure network that is immune to botnets. No other coin, besides Bitcoin, will be able to boast the kind of stats Litecoin's network will.

In the span of just over a month, we saw well over $20 million in ASIC hashrate deployed onto the Litecoin network. Over the summer and fall, we will easily cross over into $100 million. This is going to attract attention. Smart money wants in on the ground floor and Litecoin provides another ground floor opportunity.

All these products and services happening with Bitcoin are a direct result of the massive investment made into a dedicated mining infrastructure. That's where it starts...and Litecoin is about to explode, in that regard. It's foolish to ignore Litecoin out of some misplaced loyalty to Bitcoin, because if you look at how the pieces are falling right now, Litecoin is poised for a huge 2015. But by all means, keep throwing your money into pump and dump alts that are going nowhere, trying to make a quick fortune by timing your dumps right. I am a long-term investor and that's why my money is in Bitcoin and Litecoin, 50/50.

Litecoin never rallies on the same schedule as Bitcoin. Money always leaves Litecoin when Bitcoin reverses trend and starts going higher. Always...and then, when the Bitcoin rally peters out, money cycles back to Litecoin. Sometimes a lot more than was there, to begin with.

We have 5-6 solo miners with over 30% of the block rewards right now, which represents an unusually concentrated amount of dumping...and they're offloading in anticipation of the next round of hardware that's shipping next month and throughout the summer/fall.

It'll be bumpy for a while, but when the network has been overtaken by ASIC hardware, it's going to change the dynamic radically. Hashrate will no longer have anywhere to migrate for chasing profitability and miners will be forced to hoard until profitability improves. Unless they like losing money. Over time, it'll rebalance and that's when it'll boom...because the network will have increased its hashrate tenfold at least, since the start of 2014. The strength of the network will attract a lot of eyes.

Honestly...people in crypto these days have NO patience, whatsoever. The pump and dump mentality has overrun it.

Whenever I see the "community" argument, I have to shake my head.

What has Dogecoin's fervent, boisterous and "fun" community done for that coin's success rate? It has gone from being over 200 satoshis to like 50 in the space of a few months.

You know what matters? How much money is in it from an investor standpoint, and how much money is in it from an infrastructure standpoint, and the fundamentals of the coin itself.

Did the Bitcoin Foundation have it all together back in January 2013? No...it was founded in September 2012. It certainly wasn't the organization that it is, today. I think the Litecoin Foundation was formed late last year. Does it have a ways to go? Sure...that's a fair statement. I think it'll get there, though. It can learn from the mistakes that the Bitcoin Foundation has made.

I have been involved with a lot of alts. They ALL, at some point, had VERY active communities with a lot of enthusiasm...of course they did. Everyone was involved because they were hoping that coin would be the "next big thing" and they'd get to be the guy buying the sports car with his hoard of coin. That doesn't make them good coins with prospects for mainstream adoption. They have all resorted to pumping and dumping. That "community" you're talking about is a coordinated pump.

Litecoin has the money in it, well and above any other coin that isn't called Bitcoin. A dedicated hardware infrastructure is currently being laid for it that will explode its value to business and investors...and it really doesn't matter how many new posts you can count on the Litecoin reddit page every day. When the mainstream media starts reporting on "the new mining boom" in Litecoin later this year, that reddit page is going to fill up with people jumping on the bandwagon.

And with regard to Darkcoin...it has pump & dump written all over it, to me. Small float, interesting story (anonymity) but virtually no prospects at widespread adoption to support the current price. It's the next Auroracoin, IMO.

It's a protocol, not a video game...this isn't World of Warcraft where they need to add "new content" to keep people interested.

As for not having a dev team...the lead developer is Warren Togami, has been for a long time and he still works with Charles Lee on it. Otherwise, it's open source and they've had 150 different people contribute pull requests over the years. They have a very clear vision of what they intend Litecoin to be about and they are guided by that. You won't be seeing bells and whistles added just for show.

It depends highly on your risk tolerance and how speculative you want to be...but what you should be aware of is that the vast majority of alt-coins currently in circulation are being treated as pump & dump schemes. The communities are complicit in it (of course) because they are still locked into the late 2013 "get rich quick" mentality. Unfortunately, people at large are wising up and that gravy train has about run its course.

Yet there Litecoin still is. Still the #2 coin, after all this time. Drawing ALL of the new Scrypt ASIC hardware to itself (none of it's going to other Scrypt alts). Growing in security and reliability. Litecoin is in NO danger of losing its #2 slot - in fact, it's exactly where Bitcoin was at the start of 2013, when its infrastructure started transitioning to ASICs. The difference? It doesn't have the ties to the TOR underground markets, it doesn't have the regulatory hurdles and bad press to face, it doesn't have a mysterious recluse as a creator, sitting on a million early mined coins...

Right now, Litecoin IS facing downward price pressure, thanks to a small handful (5-6) of very large solo miners (see the hashrate distribution chart) who have a much larger than usual capacity to influence price negatively, due to dumping. Throughout the summer and fall, even more manufacturers will be shipping more powerful hardware, and the entire network will transition to ASIC by the end of the year. The distribution of hashrate should balance back out to something approximating normal and at that point, there won't be the undue negative impact of a small handful of miners on price.

This transition has a ton of potentially very positive impacts. First, it tells the world that Litecoin is ready for prime time, with a very robust and secure network of dedicated hardware and hundreds of millions in infrastructure investment, with more coming all the time. Secondly, there's going to be nowhere for that hashrate to go. It HAS to stay in Litecoin. Sure, maybe a few "home gamers" will be in coin switching pools but the hardware will be so powerful that a solo miner could 51% almost all of the Scrypt coins, by themselves. No large-scale miner can switch to another Scrypt coin because they'd either 51% them, or the gravity well / Digishield would push the difficulty into the stratosphere, making them instantly unprofitable (and drive all the hashrate out). These ASICs will kill coin switching.

So the last man standing will be Litecoin (in terms of Scrypt coins)...or whatever decides to merged mine with it.

Basically, invest in Litecoin if you want to be in one that actually stands a very good chance of achieving widespread adoption. It has always been mentioned in the same breath as Bitcoin more than any other coin and that relationship is only going to get stronger in the coming year. There are a lot of other coins out there vying for GPU miners and trying new things, but look at coinmarketcap...they aren't even in the same neighborhood as Litecoin. Do you want gimmicks, or do you want a secure network you can trust with your money?

Watch the Litecoin market over the next couple of months and find a good low spot to buy into. Then just sit on it for 3-5 years and see what happens.

Someone apparently set the spreadsheet to read-only, it doesn't seem to be editable now. Dunno what's happening with it.

How many times has Bitcoin been resuscitated...

Well, take a look at Bitcoinwisdom's record of hashrate changes.

First of all, you had the Gridseed ASICs that started shipping out in late January and early February. The network started seeing some pretty significant jumps there as those deployed. In fact, it appeared that a lot of GPU hashrate started leaving the week prior, with the difficulty adjusting down over 20%, twice in a row...only to be followed by a 34% jump the next adjustment.

Jan 30th - 94,496 MH/s

So then came February as the Gridseeds shipped out around the globe. You'd see adjustments with large drops, followed by adjustments with large increases and by the end of February, we were almost right where we started the month. But my theory is that a good chunk of the GPU mining had transitioned.

Feb 28th - 90,059 MH/s

Then came March...and the new "blade" form factor along with other Gridseed-based products. March just SCREAMED "accumulate" to me as the miners that were transitioning from GPU to ASIC poured money into it. The difference in network hashrate was huge.

March 30th - 162,551 MH/s

Most of April was slow...until the very last week, where the network jumped over 50,000MH/s. Why? Innosilicon's A2 Terminator-based systems with 80MH/s performance that dwarfed the Gridseed hardware.

April 29th - 203,086 MH/s

From the end of April until today, since the launch of the Innosilicon systems, we've seen only FOUR decreases and none above 5.5%...the rest have been increases, as those Innosilicon, Zeusminer and Silverfish systems proliferate.

Today - 357,790 MH/s

So before ASICs: 90,059 MH/s
After ASICs: 357,790 MH/s

That's an almost 300% increase in network hashrate (unless my math is wrong, definitely not unheard of), in four months since the first ASICs launched.

Now, consider that the largest form factor ASIC you can currently buy is 80MH/s...and the next salvo of hardware being shipped is likely to be Alpha Technology's Vipers in mid to late July, at 250MH/s each, followed within a month or two by KNCMiner's 250MH/s systems (and then their 400MH/s systems a month or so later).

So yeah...my guess is, we're going to see a total tenfold increase in network hashrate thanks to ASICs, by the end of the year. Of course, there will be losses as miners decommission their Gridseed equipment due to lack of profitability, etc...but the size of the incoming hashrate will dwarf it.

Granted, a factor in the difficulty adjustments is the movement of multipools, but I think there are clear mile-markers with ASICs you can point to (and I don't think multipools have THAT great of an impact on Litecoin).