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1  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: The Lightning Network FAQ on: May 13, 2019, 08:28:47 PM
General Information

How are bitcoins on the Lightning Network different from on-chain bitcoins?

They are exactly the same coins. There are no Lightning Network tokens. The only difference is that bitcoins are stored in multi-signature addresses and transactions are settled between two parties without broadcasting anything to the blockchain (except when opening and closing the channel).

There are errors in the General information.

The Bitcoins on the blockchain and Lightning Network are not the same coins.
(They literally can't be as Bitcoins can not leave the bitcoin blockchain.)

Otherwise , when LN made any changes to the amount it would instantly be reflected on the actual blockchain, not waiting for a final settlement transaction to make the two ledgers match.


LN is a name given to a method of using Bitcoin transactions in one particular way. Bitcoin consists of transactions that can be signed and broadcast over the Bitcoin network. There are many reasons to sign a transaction and keep it offline until a later date, and LN simply takes advantage of this ability. Bitcoin has the ability to create 2-of-2 multisig transactions where you simply delay the broadcast. If you consider this basic usage of transactions a different "coin" then practically every Bitcoin transaction that has happened is a different "coin" and every smart contract that ETH uses that hasn't been broadcast yet is also a different "coin" for some time, which would makes the term fairly meaningless. In terms of cryptocurrencies, using blockchain transactions of said coin that are sufficiently mathematically and cryptographically secured by a specific blockchains should be considered to be of that specific coin. This helps us use the term with relevancy when talking about a coin or alternative coins.

LN is a very cool "smart contract" of plain-old regular Bitcoin transactions on the Bitcoin chain.

LN is a offchain fractional reserve IOU system, that can be used with Bitcoin or Litecoin or anything the LN network is coded for.


It's important to distinguish a banking IOU or fractional reserve IOU in it's most nasty feature: it can be fraudulently denied or withdrawn and requires trust in the hands of the banker. A major point of LN is that it requires zero trust. It is secured mathematically and cryptographically, since it is using Bitcoin transactions with a protocol that cannot be broken (minus any bugs, but that is the same of any nascent technology). Due to this, you cannot "fractionally" give someone more coins as if you have more coins that you do. This is what banks do.

With LN, you must prove that you own the Bitcoin you are transmitting over the LN by signing the transaction correctly which is then verified by the other node. If you pretend to have more coins than you claim, the LN funding transaction would simply fail (which happens on-chain to prove it).

LN is far from an IOU in that (most critical) sense. You could consider every Bitcoin payment an "IOU" on a magical global ledger, but again the term becomes less useful for the purposes of talking about cryptocurrencies. Since you cannot counterfeit, charge-back, or abandon any promises of payment with Bitcoin transactions through mathematics and cryptography -- it should be considered just hard money. The same is with a LN-type of Bitcoin transaction -- there is no way for a party to perform the same tricks of an IOU of a traditional bank.

LN is not a true part of bitcoin. As Bitcoin can be used without LN and LN can be used without bitcoins.


LN-implementation of Bitcoin transactions is second-layer technology, and as such, Bitcoin Lightning Network cannot be used without Bitcoin. Bitcoin LN is a particular way of using Bitcoin. LN technology can also be implemented on other cryptocurrencies with the same mathematical security. For example, Litecoin has also implemented LN for their chain.

LN notes/tokens or whatever you want to call them , are only and i repeat only representations of bitcoins or litecoins,
and only exist on the LN network , they transact in IOU of the given representation of value only.


See above. There is no representing here. It is purely regular Bitcoin transactions, and there are no other blockchains or coins involved in a LN-type of Bitcoin transactions anymore than there is involvement of other coins when doing a pure 2-of-3 Bitcoin transaction or a m-of-n Bitcoin transaction. It's a particular type of multisig transaction, nothing more. It just happens to have a really cool name, and it operates with mathematical and cryptographical security (Zero Trust) without clogging up the chain (yay, scalability!).

There is nothing new under the sun.
*Banks used Gold or Silver, and let people transact with their bank notes and redeem those notes for gold or silver, if they so choose. *
*LN uses any segwit coin and lets people transact with their LN notes/tokens and redeem those note/tokens for any agreed upon segwit coins, if they so choose.*


Your bcash favoritism seems to have leaked there with your use of "segwit coins". Bank notes have a fundamental flaw in them, in that they require trust. Bitcoin eliminated that need for trust, and further, Lightning Network ensures that we don't lose that hard money security by also not requiring trust. This is where your comparison truly breaks down.

Bitcoin is extremely powerful because of the fact that once I own the private keys, there is NOBODY who can deny me the coins. Lightning Network is powerful for the exact same reason. That once I have made a Lightning Network transaction, there is NOBODY who can deny me the coins. We get the same level of security, with an awesome level of scalability, and even bonus benefits in privacy.

Any denial of the above is pure nonsense.

If no one wants the truth to be mentioned, then I suggest locking this topic and restarting with a self moderated one ,
if the intended purpose is nothing more than a public relations hype machine.

G'Day  Smiley

Just to show how LN is nothing more than a Offchain Bank,
Here is Lightning Labs detailing how to swap LN IOUs of Bitcoins for LN IOUs of Litecoins.
At no time do either the bitcoins or litecoins actually leave their own blockchains.
Proving LN IOUs are transacting in pure representations of each coin, and only onchain transactions redeem the IOUs.

Categorizing cryptographically secure transactions that cannot be revoked by others is the furthest away from "offchain bank IOUs" that I can think of in terms of transactions. It's important to understand the security around the technology and the fact that it does not leverage any other chain other than the one it is implemented with.

This reply is not meant for Khaos77 because it seems there is some ulterior motivation for someone to be this incorrect about a technology yet seemingly so confidently wrong. In this case, I'm not here to start an argument - but I simply want to give people a chance to understand Lightning Network on their own. I, myself, may be incorrect about some of these things, and I hope that other Lightning Network experts can chime in. This reply is meant for anyone else watching the thread.

Now, I have to get back to writing code. Have a nice day!
2  Economy / Services / Re: [FULL] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: May 13, 2019, 12:07:59 AM
Hello everyone! Tim from here.

I just wanted to drop by and thank everyone who participated in the 6-week signature campaign. Time really flew by, and I learned a lot during this time. We gained some users, but we also see that Lightning Network is still in a very early phase. But I am excited about it's future and will continue to grow the site as much as I can. It's still a very tiny hobby project for me, but I think it has potential.

It's sad to see the end of the campaign, but if the opportunity to do another signature campaign comes in the future I will be sure to post about it here on I am sure that as more people adopt Lightning Network, we'll see a greater demand for freelancing or microtasking with it.

We'll continue to make more streamlined and more powerful. We have a new beta user interface that is much more modern and easy to use. We'll be adding support for real-time messaging and notifications. There's much more work to do, and I hope that you will continue to be a part of it.

And even though the campaign is ending, the referral program is not! You can still be a marketing partner for and earn 35% of the profit generated through your referrals (see program details).

Again, many thanks and best of luck to your future!

3  Economy / Services / Re: [FULL] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: April 14, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
Hello manager please it will be nice to state the end of each week in the main page of the campaign, as to no when the start and end date for posting.

Posts are counted in the weeks as follows:

Week #1 - Apr 1 - Apr 7
Week #2 - Apr 8 - Apr 14
Week #3 - Apr 15 - Apr 21
Week #4 - Apr 22 - Apr 28
Week #5 - Apr 29 - May 5
Week #6 - May 6 - May 12

Payout is on the last day (example: payout day on Apr 14 for week #2 posts counted between Apr 8 - Apr 14 with conversion price locked in @ 12:01 AM PST Apr 14 using the Coinbase price api). The payout amounts (in satoshi) will be posted on the microlancer payout task here:

I hope this makes it clear. If you have any other questions, let us know!

I think it is a good question raised, and answered, but please also update an info about specific timezone about finish. you likely need sometime before processing everything, so the lat day likely can't be used fully.

The timezone for calculating is always PST. Thanks!
4  Economy / Services / Re: [FULL] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: April 14, 2019, 06:06:06 AM
Hello manager please it will be nice to state the end of each week in the main page of the campaign, as to no when the start and end date for posting.

Posts are counted in the weeks as follows:

Week #1 - Apr 1 - Apr 7
Week #2 - Apr 8 - Apr 14
Week #3 - Apr 15 - Apr 21
Week #4 - Apr 22 - Apr 28
Week #5 - Apr 29 - May 5
Week #6 - May 6 - May 12

Payout is on the last day (example: payout day on Apr 14 for week #2 posts counted between Apr 8 - Apr 14 with conversion price locked in @ 12:01 AM PST Apr 14 using the Coinbase price api). The payout amounts (in satoshi) will be posted on the microlancer payout task here:

I hope this makes it clear. If you have any other questions, let us know!
5  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: April 04, 2019, 07:32:47 PM
I just put your signature to show the support.
All the best for your project.

Don't forget to update your ref code!
6  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: April 03, 2019, 03:55:05 PM
I just put your signature to show the support.
All the best for your project.

Wow great! Thank you Crypto_Sassy  Grin
7  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero *Update* on: April 03, 2019, 01:14:50 PM
You guys are accepted(start wearing sigs on 4/7/19 to get week 2 payout on (4/14/19) and you can fill a position that is available if your a higher rank and your position is not available you just wont get the same pay for that membership level.

People where abusing an "honor system" on site, Maybe it will come back? He's agreed to increase the pay on this campaign %15 due to the loss of income via affiliates.

Yep, just to be clear +15% for the first week only Apr 1 - Apr 7.
8  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero $4-$8 a week on: April 02, 2019, 07:06:47 PM

Hello everyone,

Unfortunately due to a lot of spam account creation, we have to get rid of the signup bonus for affiliates. You will still receive the 35% - 70% commission rates as an affiliate.

For the first week of this campaign, all of our accepted signature wearers will receive a bonus 15% for their payouts.

So, the payouts for the first week will be:

2x Hero/Legendary Members @ $9.20
2x Sr. Members @ $8.05
3x Full Members @ $6.90
3x Members @ $5.75
3x Jr. Members@ $4.60

I apologize if this change is disappointing for some of you, but I hope that you can sympathize with trying to protect ourselves the best we can against spam/fraud. We want to be successful, so we can continue to exist, and so our promoters can also continue to be paid.

Thank you for your patience and understanding!

Tim @
9  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: mTurk Equivalent but pays satoshi for task! on: April 02, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
Sure, they will pay you for the work you've done, but the rates they're offering are just not worth it.
Thats the thing with online work, you are competing with people that only make a few dollars per day in their country.  $2/ hour is nothing in the United States but in certain countries that can be a decent amount.  -snip-
This is the exact truth.
Here in ASIA, $2/hour is equivalent to the salary of a McDonal's Crew Chief and much much higher than the regular rates (yes labor is pretty cheap here).

I've checked the site but it's not like any other freelancing sites and noticed that it's more of an advertisement like PPA (Pay Per Action) site than a freelancer's due to the lack of rules for the "allowed" job offers.
I wouldn't call a site that allows "register as my referral" a freelancer site (it has "~lancer" in the name Roll Eyes).

Actually, I tried to look for "Graphic-related" job and only found one inactive ad, the userbase and decent job offers of the site is pretty scarce.

Hey, thanks for checking out my site! Great to find feedback here. I've worked on this as a hobby for the last 8-9 months just because of my love of Bitcoin and Lightning Network. It's still brand new, and just starting to get some active users. But I think it will take some time before we're able to get a lot of high quality posts. I'm working on ideas on how to improve the results so that more people are inclined to post higher paying tasks. But I think that's going to come down to 1) attracting more successful businesses that need help, startups, and investors, 2) building an algorithm+filters to limit results to your personal definition of quality tasks.

And by the way, you can post counter-offers to any user's task! You don't need to accept the initial offer. I think negotiation is a beautiful thing, because the idea is that when both sides agree, they can both win. I'm also thinking of ways to improve the entire negotiation process to be a friendly encounter, and not one that feels like a war. I am thinking of allowing flexible ranges, or letting an asker choose to collect many estimates before accepting offers (like a silent auction, I think?).

In regards to the "lack of rules" - that was definitely intentional. One of the things I love about Bitcoin is that it is permissionless, and while I do believe some amount of moderation is important to the quality, I believe that restrictions are not the best way to deal with it. I want to ensure that anyone can post, even controversial things (if they are not downright illegal and put me or the business in danger). And, give the taskers the power to filter and sort out unwanted tasks according to their preference. Plus, the site was so new and experimental, that I wanted to learn how users were going to use the site. By letting everything in, I could try to get a sense of what people were interested in getting help with. I wanted to adjust and grow the site from that experience.

I know the site is very rough, and I've been trying my best to built it as a one-man operation. I've been busy with all the design, marketing, affiliate management, customer support, server management, devops, system adminstration, backend development, frontend development, backups, legal, accounting, branding, advertising, and trying to recover from family issues and a back surgery. I put my heart into this project, and will continue to do so. I'm happy as long as a few handful of people love the site.

I set the fees extremely low, and most likely at such a rate, it will probably never become wildly profitable. But really, I just wanted to contribute something even if it was small, to the world of Bitcoin, in great respect to Satoshi whoever he/she is, and everyone who feels the same. My life is short, and very few things have great meaning to me. But I believe if Bitcoin succeeds, then the world will be a better place. And that's all I want - for me to try to leave this world a little better than when I found it.

Tim @
10  Other / Meta / Re: KYC now required on: April 01, 2019, 02:29:14 AM

Note: I don't recall if this is my real photo or I simply downloaded it from so I apologize for any confusion.
11  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero $4-$8 a week on: March 29, 2019, 07:55:34 PM
Yes. Check it again it shouldn't exceed the 4000 character max in my signature.
Ive revised it its about 3800 now I pmed you and changed code on post #2

Now it's working fine.

A small suggestion, what you pay for the hero members is being paid to members on other campaigns. Now if you decrease the post count per week to ten, you could get all the slots filled soon. Congrats on the project and the effort you've taken as a single person.

Yeah, I agree 10 post or 15 might be good .

FYI socks435 your signature should have either the ?ref= code removed, or replaced with your own referral code. Just wanted you to be aware.
12  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero $4-$8 a week on: March 29, 2019, 06:07:25 PM
I also run a lightning node  Grin

Very cool! Love to see people running lightning nodes!  Grin
13  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero $4-$8 a week on: March 29, 2019, 04:59:10 PM
Can you clarify this. How much btc is the minimum to withdraw from Microlancer? I just want this thing to be clarified for the joining members especially jr members. Because what if their payment will be masked by the fee itself?

There is NO MINIMUM and NO FEES to withdraw from Microlancer! You can withdraw even 1 satoshi, with zero fees. We will even cover the Lightning Network transaction fees, but that's usually less than a penny anyways.

Note however, Microlancer has an internal escrow system that subtracts 1% from each task you complete. (The asker gets 1% added as a fee when they pay, but in this case we are both the asker and the platform, so that doesn't mean anything). So please be aware of this 1% fee.

Hopefully this clarifies everything! We want you to get paid properly.
14  Economy / Services / Re: [Open] Signature Campaign Accepting Jr to Hero $4-$8 a week on: March 29, 2019, 03:51:02 PM

I'm the creator and owner of and I wanted to answer some of the concerns directly! WhyFhy is very generously helping me out, as I haven't used much at all and he's more familiar with this forum. I built because I love Bitcoin and I'm also very excited about Lightning Network. It was built in my spare time for the last 8 months or so. I spent all my time coding, and didn't have a chance to post much. I don't have any investors or anything, and limited budget for trying to do any advertising/marketing. I decided that going to was important, because it's such a huge community! So we're trying to test it out, and see if we can grow the site.

I'm sorry if the budget was too low, and I understand if there are way better offers on here. We're hoping to recruit people who love Lightning Network, and maybe even tried and loved using it as a freelancer or client. It's still a brand new site, with lots of work to be done. But, I just wanted to start getting the word out for our initial motivated advocates and early adopters.

There are concerns about escrow, and it's understandable! We don't have a lot of posting history, but we're trying to build that reputation now. I think if this campaign is successful, we'll have a bit more trust. Also, itself is an escrow provider. All payments will be done using, and yes, it's not a 3rd party so it doesn't add any security for you. But I just want people to understand that we're trying to build that reputation. In the future, we're hoping to have built-in multisig and other escrow features as well but I'm not sure when I'll gather enough time to work on it.

This site is being built, maintained, and designed by just myself. As a one-man operation, it hasn't been easy. I really appreciate your patience, and all the feedback. The system takes a very small 2% fee for tasks, mostly because I wanted to contribute something valuable and useful to the Bitcoin and Lightning ecosystem. My business goals are really secondary. The site can get hacked, shut down by the government, or who knows what else someday. If that happens, I hope to adjust the project to be further decentralized and even less about my own personal business goals. I believe in Bitcoin is a moral imperative for me. We all deserve the right to earn and work and live with the freedoms granted by the universe.

I hope you'll join me in this project. I understand for a lot of people, it's a leap of faith and unable to help.

Thank you! Looking forward to the future of Bitcoin and Lightning Network!

15  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Roger Ver owning on: March 23, 2019, 02:18:26 PM
Domain name squatting and phishing has been around for a long time, and will continue to be around.
These techniques are only effective against people who are not used to doing self-verification.
Which is ironic, because Bitcoin is all about self-verification.
The spread and use of Bitcoin has always been about educating people, allowing them to grow and make their own choices.
As people get smarter, the political smoke fades away and the best choices will rise to the top.
I'm not that worried, because BTC is so far ahead in terms of technical soundness it's not even close.
Until that changes, our work is simply to educate people about phishing scams like BCH.
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