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1  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: proof of what? - reviewers needed for paper on: April 15, 2024, 06:09:22 AM
"Therefore, I propose that bitcoins be defined as digital money. On the other hand, cryptocurrency, digital currency, cash and other traditional forms of ‘money’ should be distinguished as credit."

I do find it interesting in your abstract you do not consider Bitcoin to be a cryptocurrency, as you have defined both separately, one as digital money and another as credit.

Bitcoin is the system. The money is something else, and is what drives the system.

In cryptocurrency, as in traditional currency, it's the system that drives the 'money' (credit).
2  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: proof of what? - reviewers needed for paper on: April 13, 2024, 07:21:08 PM
The paper makes a strong distinction between money, credit, and cash without explaining the importance or relevance of the distinction.

The importance is implicit in the fact that it is an objective distinction, based on the properties of gold versus credit tokens.

Credit and cash are generally considered forms of money, so it seems to me that asserting that the three are different would require some explanation.

In science, definitions should adhere to objective criteria, not to what is generally considered. The paper does not try to refute cultural convention (similar to tomatoes being 'vegetables') but to provide objective definitions (tomatoes are fruits in biology). The criterion is shown at the beginning of Section 2, besides the included citation.


I believe that the paper is making the point that the importance of a "naturally unique" item is that it cannot be duplicated. But, that characteristic does not necessarily depend on the item being "natural". There are "natural" things that can be duplicated, such as the color blue.

The colour blue is not an item. Even if it were, the fact that it can be duplicated means that it is not naturally unique, not that it is not natural. The relevant distinction is natural vs. artificial origin, and the context is signal or item reception, not production. Duplication ability refers to production.

The term "tangible" comes to mind, but that term is not sufficient. I think "distinct" is the term that more aptly describes the property being described.

Two 'distinct' credit signals (e.g. authentic, hard-to-produce bills) can be received for every distinct monetary signal (gold piece). Credit's distinctiveness makes it artificially unique on reception.




A chain of blocks contains chains of transactions, but they are not the same. The links between the blocks are not the same as the links between transactions.


What is relevant to my argument of transaction uniqueness, and the provided example, is that the links between transactions correspond to links between blocks.
3  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: proof of what? - reviewers needed for paper on: April 11, 2024, 02:04:31 PM
Too bad you did not see anything good with my paper. But thanks for taking the time!

Regarding your criticisms, could you provide arguments for your assertions? For example, you seem to have a certain conception of what's important or relevant or not arbitrary:

The paper makes a strong distinction between money, credit, and cash without explaining the importance or relevance of the distinction.

The importance is implicit in the fact that it is an objective distinction, based on the properties of gold versus credit tokens.

Quote
The paper tends to abuse the term "natural". It makes a big point about how money is naturally unique when a better description is "distinct".

Why is it better? The term "natural" is used because credit tokens are artificial or man-made; they cannot be found naturally like pieces of gold or valid nonces. Why is this not important in your view?

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The paper takes the term "proof of work" too literally and fails to acknowledge its economic basis.

The paper states from the outset that 'proof of work' should not be taken literally as proof, and its function is economic or monetary. So your criticism is puzzling.

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The paper conflates a chain of blocks with a chain of transactions.

A chain of (transaction) blocks is a chain of transactions.
4  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / proof of what? - reviewers needed for paper on: April 03, 2024, 07:29:40 PM
Hi all,

I have written a paper that challenges the notion that the 'proof of work' is a means of securing the network, solving the Byzantine Generals problem, encrypting energy or anything of the sort. 'Proof of work' is in fact a misnomer, because a valid nonce one receives on the internet is not a measure of energy or proof of whatever a miner has done; the nonce indicates probability of work, but that's not why it gets accepted.

In consequence, Bitcoin is not about distributed systems security; it is about money, if money is defined objectively in terms of signalling interactions. Systems thinking just places Bitcoin at the same level as altcoins or centralised currency generally. Hence, my paper offers a demonstration of the digital uniqueness of the blockchain.

I would appreciate your comments, suggestions for improvement and publishing:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4683277

Unique Memory: Bitcoin and the Concept of Money

Abstract: The fundamental problem of digital cash lies in deciding on a digital message that represents a coin in a decentralised network. However, money can be accurately defined in terms of a similar problem of communication among dispersed individuals or groups. I show that Bitcoin’s design was successful because it captures the essential signalling property of a monetary token like a piece of gold: namely, its natural uniqueness, as opposed to the artificial uniqueness of a credit token. Therefore, I propose that bitcoins be defined as digital money. On the other hand, cryptocurrency, digital currency, cash and other traditional forms of ‘money’ should be distinguished as credit. This conceptual distinction can be reduced to the difference between ‘proof’ of work and standard cryptographic proof in solving the double-spending problem: digital money is not a product of consensus through computational effort; rather, consensus and computational effort result from digital money.
5  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin families on: December 27, 2022, 03:25:16 PM
Let me edit what BADecker wrote, for illustration purposes:


So, let's say that you have a God. How did that God get to be your God? Several possible ways:
1. It was your parents' God, and when you became an adult, you simply kept it as your God out of habit;
2. You selected it as your God for whatever reason. So, it was by agreement, even if that agreement was only with yourself;
3. You were forced by your parents to accept a God... like a hostage situation, where your captors tell you to obey or die.

There are possibly other ways that a God became your God. But in every case, it was by your own choice.

So, this is what I mean by the relationship between family, God and government. If we rage against any of those things, we are essentially having an argument with our family of origin, and this argument continues when we have children.

6  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin families on: December 27, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
The question I would ask is, if a man and a woman voluntarily get together and have children, how is it that the government can require the children to go to school where the teacher (from a different thread) might teach them all kinds of stuff that the parents don't agree with? After all, nobody other than the parents (except for God) had a hand in making the children. So, why are the children not more like their property than simply children?

Cool

I think calling the children the parents' property puts parents at the same level as the government, both fighting to be the rightful owner. Ironically, this is what makes the parents themselves disagree regarding their offspring, to the point of divorce and custody litigation.   

If you study families and human history, you realise Mother and Father represent the interests of their own parents and lineage, which has little to do with individual interest in a libertarian sense. This is why in-laws are annoying and why we have political left and right.

7  Other / Politics & Society / Bitcoin families on: December 10, 2022, 11:33:09 AM
Hello everyone!

I'd like to meet and discuss with fellow bitcoiners who have children. I think that the ideals of freedom begin with the family and only make sense when looked at through this personal lens. Many people within the Bitcoin community, beginning with Satoshi himself, subscribe to the ideal of individual sovereignty and the Austrian School of economics. All of this is fantastic. However, when does a developing child become a sovereign individual?

If you defend the ideal of freedom and free market capitalism, should you not begin by protecting the children's individuality from elders who threaten it? Why rage against "the government" when there are actual people around you wielding a much greater power on helpless human beings? There is no easy answer to this question, but this is precisely the reason we parents need to research and talk.

A related topic, I think, is our troubles as adult bitcoiners dealing with parents and relatives who do not understand. Traditionally, parents have trouble granting their children the freedom we crave. There is an interesting interplay between our relationships with our parents and our relationships with our children. I hope to be able to discuss and share our experiences in this legendary forum!

8  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: September 05, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
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The cooperative, non-altruistic nature of Bitcoin is elusive even to those who understand its technicalities. Many of them are fans of Austrian economics, even though the very existence of Bitcoin is a blow to their theory that money is ‘the most liquid good’ which emerges from barter. Because bitcoins have not yet established themselves in the way a 20th Century mind would regard as ‘generally accepted’, bitcoins are not regarded as money. But Menger, Mises and Hayek were all pre-internet human beings with a strong national consciousness. Bitcoins are valuable precisely because they transcend such an old social context, because they encapsulate the desires of people to cooperate regardless of where they were born.

“Really, what is money?” https://link.medium.com/hSshrD0hJZ
9  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: September 02, 2019, 08:19:56 AM
The discussion is very interesting, but it can only make sense from a purely theoretical point of view.
In reality, the relationship between biology and bitcoin is quite forced, so I wouldn't waste too much time on it.

This is because you assume that biology has nothing to do with reality, which couldn't be further from the truth. Human societies are animal societies. You can keep understanding 'money' in the usual cultural way, but I wouldn't call that very empirical.
10  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: September 01, 2019, 06:13:49 PM
Hi all,

Modern biology has been getting close to solving the mystery of money ever since Dawkins attempted a definition in 'The selfish gene'. By clarifying some basic conceptual issues, this research article defines Bitcoin as the first form of digital money. Fiat 'money' and any coin that prioritises exchange over value is defined as credit. This sorts out the confusion with ideas like 'credit-money or 'money is debt' or 'money comes from a commodity'... In this way, the article solves the recent debate between David Graeber and the Austrian School. I hope it is useful.

https://www.academia.edu/40138316/Money_is_a_token_of_cooperation_The_biology_of_indirect_exchanges


I think this selfish Gene is somehow essential till and extent since it is the one that actually helps the world running , ofc too much of this is  a problem for sure.
This is actually derived from the *survival instinct*
If you are selfless you tend to be easily killed and you know other things .

There is a Gene for everything , even for our habit of moving legs without any stimuli .
I think the selfish gene is indeed a natural trait that is always present in humans. besides that most of us do not want to get out of the safe zone, so with the power we have, we try to refuse to be safe, even though this can be detrimental to others and even the world. we see that developed countries always want to be ahead and rule the world, in various ways

The article is actually against the 'selfish gene' mantra, which is nearly 50 years old and has been superseded by more realistic, non-moralistic theories about cooperation. Please read before you comment.
11  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 30, 2019, 06:04:58 AM
Not too sure it really is as close to solving the debate and I'm not sure either of the guys backing Modern Money Theory or Austrian School theory (this link in case anyone wants in) would agree this lays their case(s) to rest!

Oh, I am pretty sure most of them will disagree. They also disagree about Bitcoin having value... What this paper does is bring actual scientists into the debate rather than leave it to social theorists.

Interesting read, nevertheless. But there's also a lot of fresh conflicting evidence against the selfish gene (@dothebeats for e.g. more evidence shows we're not as instinctively anti-altruist as we think, as a recent Swedish study of public CCTV footage shows), suggesting that modern generations using modern money might actually not fit the logical mould anymore.

Have you read the paper? It says that cooperation is not the same thing as altruism. That is, it rejects the selfish gene paradigm (as a lot of biologists are doing recently).
12  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 29, 2019, 07:27:21 AM
'The tendency to confuse cooperation with altruism needs to be overcome if morality and money are to be understood scientifically. When someone exchanges a coffee for something else, they are not actually being altruistic but cooperative. Any associated feelings of altruism belong in the moral, symbolic context of a society, not in the real context of trade. Thus, a token issued for rewarding altruistic actions (credit) cannot be logically called the same as a token wanted by people who are voluntarily looking to cooperate. The former kind of token follows the actions, whereas the latter precedes them.

Any system of exchange that relies on credit is vulnerable to deception and exploitation. Because altruistic actions are morally prescribed, there is a clear demand for credit, but also a clear incentive to issue it. In order to increase trust in the system, credit is often given a monetary basis that adds to the conceptual confusion of money with credit. It is generally hard to adopt an objective perspective on these concepts, away from what is commonly called ‘society’ and from the fact that language itself is sociocentric [23]. Phenomena such as kinship, modality and morality are all linguistic in nature and epistemically confusing [8, 24]. Financial discourse is equally shrouded in mystery, and now faces the challenge of technologies that disrupt the domestic setting in which it evolved.  

The term cryptocurrency inherits such ambiguities. The word currency refers to a medium of exchange issued within a legal context (from Middle English: curraunt, ‘in circulation’). But Bitcoin is not a currency because it exists de facto in the lawlessness of the internet, nor does cryptography alone provide its monetary qualities. Instead, bitcoins should be termed digital money, in the same way as many commodities and collectibles (e.g. precious metals, cigarettes in prison, salt in ancient times, wampum and other shells) are seen as tangible money.

Human societies endure on the basis of abstract beliefs and kinship systems that recruit cooperative partners. Credit has fuelled their exponential, competitive growth at the expense of the sustainable, intelligent growth that results from money alone. Morality and credit are fictional forms of value that concern only a subset of the species. On the other hand, money is ethical, because as a real form of value, it enables all human beings to cooperate regardless of where they were born.'

https://www.academia.edu/40138316/Money_is_a_token_of_cooperation_The_biology_of_indirect_exchanges
13  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 28, 2019, 06:11:20 AM
I think we have great theories in monetary economics about the origin of money why pretty much explains the origin of money and have been accepted worldwide. Yes the theory you are talking about might have striking similarity with the history of money but that does not change the concept that is widely accepted. Anyways, that is an interesting read.

The theories of money you mention cannot be great because 1) they contradict each other, and 2) they do not communicate with biology.

As I mentioned, this theory explains the debate between David Graeber's anthropological narrative on the origins of money (book: Debt: The first 5000 years) and the classical economic narrative that money originated through barter.

Saying that the concept of money is 'widely accepted' is like saying the same about the concept of God. Yes, people use it with confidence but they don't know what it is or mean different things by it. Science has always served to clear this sort of cultural mysticism; it has done so with God and will do so with money.
14  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 26, 2019, 06:22:35 AM
Cryptocurrency is an ambiguous term because 1) the word 'currency' means a medium of exchange within a country or other normative context (from Middle English: curraunt, 'in circulation'), and 2) you can use cryptography for anything you like, including credit 'money' that is nothing like Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not a currency because it exists in the lawlessness of the internet, nor does cryptography alone provide its monetary qualities (as I explained in the excerpt above).

So, we are left with the word money, which can refer to commodities and collectibles that are not associated with any authority (e.g. precious metals, cigarettes, wampum), or, again, to currency or credit. Clearly, if we want to understand these things, the meaning of the words must be sorted. The article proposes that we reserve the word money for commodities and collectibles (Bitcoin is a digital collectible); and it does so on the basis of the biological study of sociality and exchanges.

I really recommend you read the article. You will learn about modern debates in biology, the history and psychology of money, the nature of human societies, etc.


What this is missing out is the fact that there are now digital currencies of nations as well, for example petro which is still digital currency but at the same time based on a nations resources so it can always be combined.

Bitcoin was never the first digital currency, it was only the first one that seen this much adoption, there was e-money type of deals before that never got too big because they never had blockchain behind it, what made bitcoin original and unique was the blockchain, otherwise digital currency has been as old as internet itself, even data was seen as money at one point and exchanged for fiat currency to be used. Hence there are other smaller details that should be invested some research into before this theory could be 100% done with.

I guess Cryptocurrency is digital currency. Fiat currency exist in digital form too, so it definitely qualifies as digital currency...maybe it should be considered partly digital.
Some websites tend to define digital currency as currency that exist purely in digital form. I wonder why this is so.

15  Economy / Economics / Re: First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 25, 2019, 12:57:19 PM
That is more or less the idea, but the article explains that some cryptocurrencies (like Bitcoin) should be called digital money. In the same way, gold is money, but a gold coin with a nominal value should be called credit. Here is an excerpt:

'Created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin is commonly called a decentralised digital currency. However, according to the present definition of money, Bitcoin is simply the first form of digital money, as opposed to credit that has been issued digitally. Both digital credit and digital money are accounting ledgers that are stored in networks of computers. In the case of credit, the network is centralised, meaning that the authenticity of the ledger is set by a single authority. This is typically a nation-state that decides what credit belongs to whom and how much of it can there be in circulation. By contrast, the authenticity of the Bitcoin ledger is decided by a cooperative process called proof-of-work [36]. Any computer that is connected to the internet is free to participate in the process by adhering to a certain protocol. The protocol rewards those ‘mining’ computers with new coins at a decreasing rate that mimics the scarcity of gold. At root, however, the proof-of-work is a mathematical solution to the problem of coordinating different computers on the internet, in the same way as money in general is a solution to the problem of coordinating different people in nature.'


What you missing is the fact to realize difference between crypto currencies and fiat currencies. Digital is just expression, fiat is digital long before bitcoin, people use paying cards for decades. Where is the difference? Of course in what kind of principles currency is using for generation, distribution and transactions. Bitcoin is the first crypto-digital-currency build on blockchain technology.

16  Economy / Economics / First biological theory of money supports Bitcoin on: August 23, 2019, 07:15:00 AM
Hi all,

Modern biology has been getting close to solving the mystery of money ever since Dawkins attempted a definition in 'The selfish gene'. By clarifying some basic conceptual issues, this research article defines Bitcoin as the first form of digital money. Fiat 'money' and any coin that prioritises exchange over value is defined as credit. This sorts out the confusion with ideas like 'credit-money or 'money is debt' or 'money comes from a commodity'... In this way, the article solves the recent debate between David Graeber and the Austrian School. I hope it is useful.

https://www.academia.edu/40138316/Money_is_a_token_of_cooperation_The_biology_of_indirect_exchanges
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