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1  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Never make a ROI on: June 14, 2014, 03:05:52 PM
For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you?  Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment.  He'll always have a place in my BTC heart.... Cry

You didn't make $500. If you sold right now you'd make about half that due to the drop in price since February. You don't make a profit or a loss until you sell. Until then, it's imaginary.
 
2  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Never make a ROI on: June 07, 2014, 05:05:59 PM

I bought an S1 AntMiner in December 2013, and one in January of 2014. Total cost for the 2 S1 AntMiners was 5.35 BTC.

Here were are in June of 2014, and I'm looking at a wallet balance of about 6.6 BTC.

Net profit = 1.25 BTC, or (1.25/5.35 invested)*100 = 23.36-ish %.
---------
You are right, I did miscalculate my power costs.

700 W for 2 antminers (measured using KillOwatt meter),  24 hours a day, that's 16800 W or 16.8 KW.

At $ 0.10 / KW, that's $1.68/day * 180 days = $302.8 for half a year.

Subtract that from the profit, and that knocks it down to roughly 11% profit.

Still, profit is profit. You're not getting 11% by investing in treasury bills, and AntMiners are way safer than the stock market (Nothing exciting happens in my basement, heh).

Those Antminers are still running, and will be profitable until roughly October/2014.

Thank you for pointing that out.



You're not profitable. At least not if your using USD.

BTC Cost: 5.35BTC*$900 = $4800 (Average of December and January BTC prices)
Power Cost: $300
Current Value: 6.6*$650 = $4290
Profit/Loss: -$810

That's better than if you had bought BTC and held it.

BTC Cost: 5.35*$900 = $4800
Current Value: 5.35*$650 = $3477
Profit/Loss: -$1323

But what if instead you had split that $4800 over 6 months and just bought straight BTC(dollar cost averaging)?
(Buying .892 BTC at the beginning of every month for 6 months beginning in December)

Cost: $1000*.892 + $800*.892 + $800*.892 + $550*.892 + $450*.892 + $450*.892 = $3612
Current Value: $3487
Profit/Loss: -$125

That's better than the $800 loss from mining. But an ever better situation is if you bought at a low point like April.

Cost: $4800 = 13.71BTC @ $350
Current Value: $8914
Profit: $4114

With mining, you're accepting a loss out of the gate and hoping that at some point in the future you can not only make back what you paid for the hardware but also make a profit. In other words, your hoping that:

1. BTC prices don't drop.
2. Difficulty doesn't increase to the point that renders your hardware unprofitable to run before you reach break-even.

With buying BTC, you just hope the price goes up. In addition, you can employ various investing strategies (such as dollar cost averaging) to reduce losses and improve profits. And unlike mining, if the market starts plummeting you can just cash out.

Better for small timers to just buy BTC or set up a regular investment strategy than to mine.
3  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Cloud mining or Mining in home? on: June 06, 2014, 01:35:24 AM
Cloud mining and home mining are both losses at this point. You'll be lucky to break even with all the new hashing power that's coming online.
4  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Mining VS Buying Bitcoins on: June 06, 2014, 01:33:25 AM
If you want to lose money, buying mining equipment is a good way to do it right now.

A lot of people fail to take everything into account when calculating their ROI, especially difficulty increases. And just think, if you've got the money to buy an ASIC miner how many other people do too? What happens when all this new hashing power comes online?
5  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Begin mining? on: May 31, 2014, 03:15:14 PM
Hi! Just got a photovoltaic system in my home and im thinking buying hardware for mining. I have some questions because im completely noob. i tried once to mine with my imac and i got something like 0,000001 btc in 4 hours. i gave up of course. now i want to invest around 1000 in hardware. which hardware to get? and how much btc/24h (without considering electricity cost) i can min with such hardware? or maybe there are better cryptocurrencies to mine? thanks

Go to Betarigs. It is a better investment to rent hardware.

much luck:-)

Only if you can't do math. Check the prices on Betarigs vs. expected profit on CoinWarz.
6  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: I have 3 Million USD to invest into Crypto Currency - How should I do it? on: May 24, 2014, 12:41:50 PM
In a word: Don't.

Seriously there are much better ways to invest that cash. If you absolutely don't care what happens to that money and are free to piss it away, then sure, burn it any way you want.
7  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: So the AsiaCoin scam has now taken us to a new level....welcome. on: May 06, 2014, 04:49:55 AM
The thing that I find most bothersome is that exchanges never vetted the coin, evidently. I also don't know how the coin got listed on the bigger exchanges to begin with, unless money changed hands.

No SEC. No FDIC. No central bank. No audits. No rules. No regulations.

Put simply, exchanges don't have to do shit. They don't have to answer for shit. They don't have to tell you shit. They can be the most corrupt greedy bastards on the planet, steal all your coins, and simply walk away. And the best part is, you can't do shit about it.

Welcome to reality friend. The exchanges are going to do whatever the hell they want to make the most money. If that means taking a percentage by posting a known scam coin, you can sure as hell bet they'll do it. They can/have/will straight-up lie to your face. What are you going to do about it? Take your coins elsewhere? Go ahead....awww....are you having withdrawal problems? Well golly gee will get someone to work on that right away! In the meantime you can try visiting our new site: 404 Not Found So Fuck You And Thanks For The Coins.

Treat exchanges and new coins like they're being run by greedy assholes with no morals and no laws. You'll be a lot better off.
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: How long before BTC overtaken by another cryptocurrency? on: May 06, 2014, 04:24:44 AM
Agree. The financial world seems to forget that primary use of a coin is not to make them rich, but to be used by the 99,98% of the population that is actually doing something useful.

The primary use of a CURRENCY is a medium of exchange. Bitcoin and related cryptos behave more like COMMODITIES. Actually, they behave even worse than commodities since there is nothing to control them and no oversight. This leads to wild fluctuations in values which, understandably, is a turn off for a lot of businesses (especially now that the law has been clarified on how bitcoins are treated).

More on topic, Bitcoin will remain king of the hill for a while since it is the most well established crypto. Everyone has heard of Bitcoin. It would take a group with considerable financial backing and a really good team to dethrone Bitcoin. Unfortunately, everyone and their uncle have created a veriatable Niagra Falls of turd coins hoping to get rich quick. No innovation. No serious groups. No serious backing. Maybe one of the X11 coins might gain enough ground eventually.
9  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Anyone Making Money With Contracts? on: April 23, 2014, 03:47:06 AM
If you trade hashrate, then CEX or Scrypt.cc could be profitable. You might also end up profiting if you do dollar cost averaging on Scrypt.cc and things don't get too weird in the market. But the fees on CEX will destroy any long term holding position.

PBMining...well...let's just say I don't really trust them. A 5 year contract is just plain stupid given the rate that hashing power and difficulty increases. You'll be lucky if you make back your principal, and in a year your hashing power won't mean jack. Plus, their numbers don't make sense. After you figure out the cost for maintaining a data center, buying hardware, electricity, etc. then look at what they're charging for contracts there seems to be something missing. A couple other things don't smell right either, but to each their own.

Basically, you're just better off buying BTC directly and holding than any mining contract.
10  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Cloud Mining Help on: April 23, 2014, 03:34:49 AM
Hi I am new to this and I am planning to go with Cex.IO. If I buy 3GHs from them how much would that be. Also how much can I make per day with tht amount

Thanks much help appreciated

Waste of money. You'll never make back what you spent. Use their calculator.
11  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: ROI on gridseeds? really? on: April 19, 2014, 12:26:18 AM
Gridseeds will likely have a positive ROI for some time. With multipools along with multiple lucrative coins, it's going to take awhile to get enough hashrate online to saturate everything to the point where the power sipping gridseed is no longer profitable to run. At average US power rates, LiteCoin would need a difficulty greater than 50,000 before it became unprofitable to run a Gridseed.

The problem is that ROI is positive return after initial purchase price. So say I spend $4000, I need to make at minimum this amount back +1 for a positive roi. Litecoin for example is currently at ~5000 difficulty so we would need a 10x increase to reach a point where it is unprofitable to turn on your asic. We wont see that in the next few months but we will see a consistent increase in difficulty thus constantly postponing the date when we see positive roi.

The problem is if new asics are 100x more powerful than current gridseeds, could we reach 50,000 difficulty before a positive roi on gridseed miners? And his goes for more profitable altcoin mining as well.

I'm aware of how ROI works.

My argument is that even with all the new hashing power coming online it won't be enough to jack the difficulty high enough to stop a gridseed from ever achieving a positive ROI. I really don't see multiple coins reaching 50,000 difficulty by years end.
12  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Best money making guide with altcoins on: April 19, 2014, 12:05:23 AM
That isn't the way this site works or is supposed to work.  People can read and make up their minds.   It is much better if people know the risks involved.   Moving coins from one exchange to another takes time and markets are moving.   
are you mental or can't read english
moving HTC from swisscex to beedui takes less then 10 Minutes
automated withdrawal and fast transaction confirmation
so stop posting such stupid comments again and again when you don't know how it warks
take your ass with you and leave this thread

got it?

There is no trading site I'm aware that requires less than 3 transaction confirmations, and the average bitcoin confirmation time is around 10 minutes. Even if it was just 10 minutes for all three that is more than enough time for the arbitrage opportunity to vanish or reverse.

There are people a whole lot smarter than you who have tried all sorts of different variations of arbitraging. There aren't a whole lot of people doing it and even fewer who manage to turn a profit as a normal investor. And yet you come on here thinking you've discovered some awesome new scheme without even having tried it yourself.

Seriously, do a search on the forum for "arbitrage". This subject has been discussed many times. You aren't bringing anything new to the conversation.
13  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Next ASIC upgrade? on: April 18, 2014, 11:41:20 PM
50 T/H worth of mining power will get you about 3 bitcoins per month in January 2015.  Think about that.  We're talking at least tens of T/H early next year and hundreds of T/H later on in 2015.  This should not be too much of a surprise since just last year a 5 G/H Jalapeno was actually worth something in the beginning of 2013.


By the way, a 5.4 T/H miner delivered in August will only get you back about 6 btcs.

...and 50T/H will need about 50KW of electric power ...at current efficiency of 1W/1GH...and will cost you ...@$0.10/KWh * 720 * 50 = #3600 ... Huh

BTC @ $1200 is about breakeven ...Overhead...hosting etc...is extra... Roll Eyes

Hard to believe that mining will be the same by the end of 2014...

I'm assuming that one of these will happen:  1. much more efficient ASIC's are created   2. price of btc keeps mining reasonable   3. difficulty increase rate will drop

The thing is, they're rapidly approaching the efficiency barrier if they haven't already hit it. There are physical limits to what can be done with the chips. Once the limit is reached it becomes how much you can cram into a package without melting itself into a pile of slag.
14  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: ROI on gridseeds? really? on: April 18, 2014, 05:37:05 AM
Gridseeds will likely have a positive ROI for some time. With multipools along with multiple lucrative coins, it's going to take awhile to get enough hashrate online to saturate everything to the point where the power sipping gridseed is no longer profitable to run. At average US power rates, LiteCoin would need a difficulty greater than 50,000 before it became unprofitable to run a Gridseed.
15  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: My cloud mining experiment on: April 17, 2014, 04:57:09 AM
I bought some Future Mining contacts on CEX.IO today which start mining on April 26th.
The price is currently arround 0.0081 to 0.0082 BTC/Ghs.
I guess the price will rise now, since its ony ten days until these contracts will start mining.
Take a look at CEX.IO


what a ridiculous price per GH/s... you do realise we are looking at difficulty rise in the next few hours, don't you?
You will never break even on that price, sell it while the going is good, and please; stop spamming this thread with links.

Do you think you will never break-even at that price?  (Due to the increasing difficulty).


Never. Use their calculator. The default is 100 GHs. At the current rate of difficulty increase that 100 GHs will earn you BTC for 6 months, then you will start losing money due to fees and whatnot. During that 6 months you'll get about .53 BTC, but it will cost you .82 BTC to buy the 100 GHs.

Not exactly the best investment.
16  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: GridSeed 5-chip USB miner voltage mod on: April 16, 2014, 09:09:29 PM
Just because a few people have successfully pushed their devices to 1000+ with these mods doesn't mean you will have similar success. Depending on how stable the components are on your gridseed, mods may even degrade performance.

As an example, the bridge mod is supposed to push the stable overclock from 850 to 950. I have two gridseeds running with just the bridge mod. One runs perfectly fine pushed to 1000 (1 or 2 HW errors per 24 hours). The other I can only push to 925 (any higher and I go from 0 HW errors to multiple HW errors per hour). The only difference is the 925 one came from a later batch.

EDIT: This is not to say that modding won't get you any benefits. In most cases, modding will allow you to get more hashing power. However if your expecting to order 10 gridseeds and mod them thinking you're going to get 1200 MHz out of each one then you may be in for some disappointment.






17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Best money making guide with altcoins on: April 16, 2014, 07:41:09 PM
What you're doing is arbitrage, and it isn't anything new or special. In order for it to work though, you need to be able to move assets quickly and you will need to be able to buy and sell assets quickly.

For arbitraging coins:

1. You need coins that actually have volume. Sure, the price on one exchange may be higher than another but that doesn't do you much good if no one is actually selling or buying the coins. There are plenty of low value coins that have significant exchange price deviations but their volumes are so low you can't actually arbitrage them.

2. You need to be able to move coins quickly between exchanges. If you have to wait 30 minutes for your deposits to clear then there's more than a good chance the arbitrage opportunity will vanish (especially with heavier traded coins).
18  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Will miners in USA be able to remain competitive due to huge tax burden? on: April 13, 2014, 02:58:13 AM
I'm not sure what people are complaining about. I'm actually surprised it took them this long to address it.

It comes down to this: You can't make free money. If you make above a certain limit, then it has to be either income or property. In either case, you get taxed. Now that there has been a ruling this should allow more businesses to work with bitcoin without worrying about what kind of tax or legal rigmarole they would get in for doing so. This should also put a dent in big mining operations (at least in the US) since now they actually have to pay taxes on what they make.

Also, before claiming something is a "huge tax burden" it's usually a good idea to actually take a look at the tax schedules. Unless you've got your own datacenter running in your house you probably won't be paying much, if anything once all deductions and depreciation are taken into account. In fact, it may end up as an additional tax write-off.
19  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Price per GHS. Cloud mining vs Asic on: April 12, 2014, 03:53:04 PM
I was under the impression that cloud mining was always a rip-off. Has anyone reading this ever made a profit (or at least broke even) with cloud mining?

It is a rip-off. You'll be lucky if you break even, and with all the new hashpower coming on line it's likely you won't ever break even. Even "smells like a ponzi" PBMining with their low rate will barely break even after a year, and at that point you'll be earning tiny fractions.

These cloud providers make money off the fact that people either can't or won't do the math. It's the same with rig leasers. If people really want to invest, they're far better off just buying bitcoin and holding it than trying to mine it.
20  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: What is the point of Gridseed miners? on: April 12, 2014, 03:16:32 PM
A quick calculation:

10 Gridseed Kit, 3 MHs = $200 x 10 = $2000

3 MHs at auto switching pool get you, let's see, 0.0045 BTC per MHs, so 0.0135 BTC a day, so you are making $5.805 (at $420/BTC) a day. It will take the buyer about 344 days to break even.

I feel so sorry for those who got snookered.

You're getting ripped off if you're buying 10 gridseeds for $2000. You can order 10 gridseeds for around $1300 from ZoomHash. And if you actually do your own mining as opposed to relying on a multipool you can make a bit more per day. If you just stick with multipools you have around a 7 month payback. Manually you could probably get that down into the 5-6 month range.

Regardless, people buying this equipment know that the breakeven point has always been months and not days.
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