Hi, I should have mentioned our project is starting in Spain. After looking at your project launch it is almost exactly what we want to achieve and very inspiring. As you mention, you have some more clout than we do but it gives us a fresh look and good ideas from  a real project. And because we are "newcomers" I hope we could get some of your advice along the way? Help from people with real world experience is invaluable. Thanks again.

Hi,

Great to see your project launch was a success. It is very inspirational to see your progress!!!  I wish you a lot of luck. We are hoping to achieve something similar here in Spain/Europe and we are very glad to see a project like yours doing well  

Thanks. But it HAS to be that way for VC/PE. Most people here have good opinions and good intentions but some don't understand how VC/PE really works. It is not that we "choose" to have Qualified/Accredited investors, it is because regulations DEMAND this for legality (if I raise the capital in a traditional manner). Even with qualified investors, most Banks/EMIs do not allow any crypto related businesses. It can be done through some banks/jurisdictions but it takes extra licensing or a new incorporation (ie. Malta or similar). So I am seeking a way to a) avoid the hassle and restrictions of the bank; b) develop a new model that was worked for transparency/security for the investor as well.

The second part is interesting for me because you can see how many people are skeptical, and how many ICOs failed (I don't want to say they were all scams because I have seen a ton of legit companies fail in my day, 90% of startups don't make it to year 3) so if we developed a strict process, round by round, with a good escrow (or even to avoid the escrow, investors should keep money in their pocket until certain requirements are met).

Thanks to everyone. I knew there was a lot of skepticism out there from the ICO's, but I really didn't realize how risk-averse most people seem to be now.

In private equity, the most you can do is look at the big picture, find the downside and protect your downside (mitigate risk). At the VC stage, EVERY project looks the same and it is IMPOSSIBLE to know who the big winner will be. Ex. Candy Crush vs. Bluejelli (two gaming apps, the first with 1,000x return, the second a complete dud). But there are 4 ways to mitigate risk: Risk Acceptance, Risk Limitation, Risk Transference & Risk avoidance (the most expensive of all risk mitigation options). You can limit risk by limiting allocation, which is why I am seeking a process to micro-fund the project to create a provable model (which could transfer to unrelated projects, for example, a microfarm).

To clarify a bit, I am not asking for any money (at least not yet, and maybe it will stay private, the project currently requires Qualified Investors which I don't expect to find here). I am just researching for a better process to do so if we do get to that point, or maybe even a process that could be used with my own private group of investors.

Anyway, it is all a big help with the ongoing research, especially suggestions like the verified escrow, using the securities board, etc. so thanks again.

Thanks. Yes, I can get the funds and I understand the skepticism of "throwing" money away, however it is micro-funds with no real risk (or to say if the investor is worried about losing a few hundred euro or even a few thousand, that is not the investor I am seeking as they wouldn't have capital to expand).

Again, I am not worried about finding the capital, I only ask the best way it could be done to PROVE the fairness/transparency/security, etc. because of how the ICO market tanked. Basically a way to eliminate all these common concerns for why people say it can't work/ or won't work (escrow/series of rounds, etc.).

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Thanks. The escrow/audit for next round/100% transparency - is the exact system I am looking for. Prior to 2017 I suggested all ICO's should be run this way but at that time I was told people wanted fast returns and it would take too much time.

As far as the other questions - to be honest I am not sure if we are "better" than the other BATM projects. I think we improve on other projects in the areas of: strategy, research, location, learning from failed projects - possibly the right market at the right time, but there are still many risks. My expertise comes from the VC side with market strategy - so this is really based off a growing market; Bitcoin ATMs have grown by more than 12x since January 1st, 2016, up 3x from January 1st, 2018. Installations are doubling over year on year basis averaging 11% ROI on a monthly basis. The global crypto ATM market is projected to grow at a CAGR of 46.60% to reach US$183.779 million by 2024 (based on a report so I understand this is a prediction). So there are a lot of risks/threats still out there, but someone is making a lot of money in this industry.

But I am 100% NOT a Bitcoin technical expert or programmer so I still have a lot of questions and research to do. But I will go ahead and get my feet wet here soon in the next month or two (with few machines) so I appreciate any input. Thanks again.

Hi, thanks. There are a lot of valid points here.

I say "we" sometimes but this is really a side project so I am handling 99% of the load here. I will get the funds, that is not the real concern (probably as you mentioned from people I know) but the idea was to get "proof of concept" that everyone would get paid fairly. Testing not only the machine viability, but the transparency part. If I fund it myself, I will be limited on expansion and even if it works, I have to "prove" it to any outside investors. On the other hand, if I had a 100 users x €100 on a single unit, they would have proof it works and could expand quickly.

Just to clarify the "banks", they were not "our" funds frozen, it was "all" customer accounts. In the case of i-account.cc they took off with the funds (simple fraud). I still have hope for ePayments.com but we were led to believe i-account was upgrading as well so it is a very similar situation.

Yes, I concur here, which is why I was hoping there was some new project to fix this (escrow, round by round, based on proof of work) - something for the MVP world.

I want to install a Bitcoin ATM and split the profits - it is very simple and I find it difficult to manage on here. Good luck pitching "giggles" for Bitcoin. I hate to be negative, because I know it can be very frustrating for someone to have a stranger criticize their dreams - but this idea seems a bit wacky. I want to say good luck, but my conscience tells me to say stop it! That said, it will probably go on to be the next Google.

It's a mad mad mad mad world!

Yeah, I do understand your points. I see it a lot, "why would... bitcoin to strangers", however any early stage investment has that risk (VC/ICO, etc.) and there is no real protection for the investors in those cases either. It is high risk/high reward - just wondering if there was a way to eliminate the "scam" part (some type of transparency).

I think there should be a way for people to invest in "micro-rounds" (or micro crowdfunding), or something like that where people could invest and then get proof the money was used the right way, and if they are satisfied, move to a second, third, fourth round, etc. Or something that is kept 100% in crypto/blockchain/smart contracts, etc.? I thought blockchain/smart contracts were supposed to make it all easy and transparent!  

I know there are some places like KICKICO or similar (not sure they work) but I was looking for something more like a "micro-kick" ICO.

Anyway, seems like the VC/Angel/Fiat route is the one we will have to stick with. Thanks for the input.

HI,

What is the best way to get in investors involved in a new project, yet give them ample protection? I am not talking about a large ICO/STO, but rather just to get a minimal viable product off the ground (a new BATM project, starting with a single unit). Yes, of course there are risks - ANY new project carries investment risk, but is there a best practice or process for investor transparency at a micro-level?

Seems easy enough and we were planning on doing it the traditional way however we have been thwarted by two separate banks (iaccount.cc first took off with our money, a significant amount which hurt quite a bit, and just as we were back on our feet to start with a few units, epayments.com then froze all their customer accounts!!!).

I have gone from a "speculator" to someone who wholeheartedly believes WE SHOULD ALL BE USING CRYPTO and avoiding banks.

Anyway, could someone guide me on the best/fair/transparent way to fund a "test" project using BTC? Hopefully completely avoiding bank interference?

Thanks.

Is anyone using General Bytes machines? Pros/Cons or any opinion on which is the best manufacturer to go with? Some people recommend building our own machines but seems a bit complicated (at least for now). We are not looking to reinvent the wheel, just make it turn and make a steady income. Any advice is welcome. Thanks.

Thanks for the heads up. I will message you and definitely look into BC.

This "legacy bank ATM's" is the part I have a concern with as well, however I have also been told the tech is totally different and is not compatible, although I would assume this is something banks could easily solve (info I have seen varies on this opinion). Maybe someone with tech knowledge of both bank ATMs and BATMs could clarify?

At least in our case this is true. We have one corporate bank (HK) that took off with more than €20K of our money after 3 years of doing business with them. So we gave up on that bank and opened another account (UK) last November, now last week they shut down their operations and froze all customer accounts due to "their" regulatory problems (why is "their" problem now "our" problem!?!). Banks are a pain in the ass. They require us to file all kinds of paperwork and documentation, they use our money to make money, provide horrendous customer service, then charge us fees for all of this  .

I am not sure BTC credit cards are a "threat" to the BATMs because they still require KYC and time, whereas if someone was in a hurry they would prefer the convenience of a BATM, but I do have the concern any one of the high street banks could jump in the market and kill the little guy.

I think the fees should be competitive, but the fees don't need to be "lower" than online (if you can make them lower and still make money, hats off to you!) but I think people will always pay a premium for convenience. Pawn shops have been in business forever and their business model is not to give you a favourable price on your gold  But obviously the better price you can give, the better for everyone. But IMHO your fees will be determined by the location (machine volume, cost of rent, etc.).

Anyway, keep us posted on your progress and good luck.

I understand very well the problem you are having judging the real size of your market. We are in a very similar situation installing the first machine(s) in Spain. I completely agree that the geographical location is the most important aspect (even on a micro level, ie. on one street vs. around the corner, inside a shop vs. street level w/ 24h access) and also security for the machine is very important.

Personally I can only go by statistics, which show Gen Y is the best target market (25% of Generation Y  between the age of 18 and 34 are now considering the cryptocurrency as a better investment than property - note that is a US based report) which seems like the natural progression. However I believe it is also just as important (or more important) to be in a location that is convenient, for example I think it would be better near the "central station" with high traffic and easily accessible by metro rather than a remote university town.

Also, I saw another report showing that most BTC users are not "spending" BTC in developed countries as most users in developed nations are speculators which has us focusing on purchasing/crypto adoption strategies (however, I personally have only used the machines a few times and that was to sell BTC-> Cash in a pinch, so it is very hard to tell).

I think it is best near a popular city centre plaza which is is also walking distance from a few universities (within the city it is a very high traffic area statistically). IMHO, the best solution is do as much research as possible, then test the market but make sure you are not locked-in by any long term rental contracts, and if necessary, move the machine(s) to different locations.

Good luck!

Thanks. That is the perfect way to put it, "tokenise the investment", I should have made that clear to start.

We would prefer two-way machines as well, and I used them to SELL (BTC-> CASH) here, but I never used a BATM to BUY Bitcoin. But to "dip our toe" on the first machine we plan to go with Buy only, because the regulation is so easy (Spain it is considered a vending machine) and get into the 2-way a.s.a.p.

So there are some concerns with the 1-way but the installations do keep rising, and if the current operators have been honest with me, the 1-way machines do pretty well here (break even at 5 months, including purchase, installation, rent, maintenance - not including the Bitcoin itself which can be handled a few different ways). And I agree 100% there is absolutely value in further market research and we will continue to do this vigorously.

Why invest in any project? I suppose you would only invest anything if you thought the future value of the return would be greater than the present value of the investment. If you could invest €10K to operate machine for a year that returned €2K a month, it might make sense.

An IPO as in equity? The dividend is the idea but through an ICO/STO for the token to represent a proportional/fractional share of fees from all the machines on the network, distributed back to the token holders. You could keep your Bitcoins, but you wouldn't get a return from the project.

For any IPO you would have to invest as well, or maybe I don't understand the comment.

A few questions regarding the token...

A token that grows in Bitcoin!

Our token idea is a fractional ownership token which allows users to receive a fraction of each transaction fee for every BATM on the network.

The token grows in Bitcoin value with each Bitcoin ATM transaction. Tokens receive a direct profit share of each transaction, instantly! This also includes profit share from all future Bitcoin ATMs, giving the token tremendous growth potential.

BATM Token Features:

-   Tokens are limited in supply
-   Every transaction fee is divided and distributed equally to each token in the fractional ownership program pool
-   The fees distributed to the token are paid in Bitcoin
-   The token grows in Bitcoin with each transaction made at any Bitcoin ATM within the fractional ownership program pool
-   Any token sold is paid out in Bitcoin value accumulated within that token, at which time the fractional ownership token is burned
-   Burned tokens means supply is decreased, however the number of machines remains the same or increases
-   Fewer tokens means larger profit share to each token

A few questions on if this token is possible:

I have seen similar types of transactions advertised in other projects but I would appreciate any insight from those of you with technical knowledge.

1. Is it possible to have the BATM fees paid/distributed evenly and directly across all tokens? (Can a custom, ie. ERC20 token hold the value of the BTC, for example can you hold the value/or pay BTC into another token? or would it simply represent a proportion of a wallet, for example pay the fees into a wallet and have the custom token represent a portion of the wallet?)

2. Could this be done instantly with every transaction?

3. Would there be any disadvantage of a token compared to simply having a dividend distribution of the fees to the owners wallets?

Thanks.

A bit more...

Who should own this token?

The HODL strategy for this token is based on the belief that the price and popularity of Bitcoin will rise over the next 3-year period or more, which means the token will capture profits from three areas:

1.   Growth in user base
2.   Growth in Bitcoin value
3.   Growth in Bitcoin ATM installations