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461  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc. on: September 27, 2013, 07:47:01 AM
If a gateway is forced to do so because of legal reasons, they most likely will stop honoring their old IOUs for redemption and create new IOUs.
That's certainly possible. Gateways are, like all other businesses, required to follow the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate and must respond to court orders issued by courts of competent jurisdiction. The greater includes the lesser -- in theory a government could order a gateway to stop redeeming entirely. Basically, if you operate in an jurisdiction, the controlling government can do any terrible thing to you that you might imagine.
462  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc. on: September 27, 2013, 07:43:12 AM
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Gateways must of course follow all local regulations.

Possible KYC / AML support:

Restricted issuance of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict the accounts to which it sends IOUs. For instance, it may limit sending to those account for which KYC requirements have been met.
Restricted holding of IOUs
    The gateway may restrict hold of its IOUs to pre-approved accounts. See Authorized accounts
IOU freezing
    Not implemented. The gateway may freeze an account's ability to transfer their IOUs.

From the official ripple wiki.
The "freeze" ability hasn't been implemented due to lack of demand. The restrict ability is implemented, but no gateways (that I know of, anyway) currently use it. These options have to be enabled for an account prior to any assets being issued by that account. So if a gateway chooses to use either of these features, everyone will know it before they choose to use that gateway. We don't want to tell other people how they have to use Ripple. We want to enable people to do what they want to do. Of course, we do want everyone to know what they're getting into and we want the rules to be hard to change after the game has started.
463  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: ASIC arms race = the end of bitcoin? on: September 27, 2013, 06:50:53 AM
Any chance this could be the end of bitcoin? Mass ASIC production as arms race. Some rich entity might then have more than 50% computing powder that it's not going to use so that nobody knows about it and then when the timing is right they will switch their miners on and bitcoin collapses.

I suspect this could happen because ASICs are expensive to develop but cheap to spam-produce. Maybe this will give rise to the PPCoin's proof of stake system then?
The ASIC arms race is making it harder and harder from some rich entity to corner the market. The price to corner the market keeps going up as there are more and more ASICs that are more and more powerful in the hands of more and more people.

It is true that mining will increase until mining isn't particularly profitable, thus discouraging casual mining. But there's no reason to expect there wouldn't be a number of groups mining seriously.
464  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 06:43:24 AM
So Ripple isn't decentralized then?
It's designed to operate as a full decentralized network. It is not all the way there yet. Open sourcing the server is one step. An infrastructure for managing validator lists without a central authority is the next big step.

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Currently I look at it as centralized given there is a company behind the ripple network. That company can be shut down or regulated as the powers that be see fit.
If we shut down, the network will continue so long as people are interested in continuing it. If it solves real problems for real people, they'll keep it going. If not, what difference does it make? Avoiding regulation is not one of our goals. In fact, we're working very hard to figure out how everyone from individuals to financial institutions can use crypto-currencies while complying with existing regulations and working to prevent new regulations that stifle innovation.

I honestly don't think it is possible for OpenCoin to be the party to get ripple to be truly decentralized. The topic of decentralization is a free-market type phenomena that occurs when the market chooses for it to happen. It just happens, there is no formula or solution to getting something to be that way...it just happens on its own.
Well, we can start the process by convincing a number of distinct organizations to run validators, publish lists of validators maintained using an open process, and so on. But I do agree that real decentralization will require people to choose to adopt Ripple and choose to participate. Basically, it's like the way Bitcoin became decentralized -- it took large numbers of different groups to run miners, participate in the development of the software, and form a robust community that can make decisions about the direction the network should go.
465  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 06:36:01 AM
Can the network tell me if someone is acting irresponsibly?
You can see how much outstanding credit they have and how much of ot they've used. You can also see how other people value the assets they issue. (This is the same way the unusually high price of BTC at Mt. Gox leads you to believe there's some reason people value their USD at less than face value.)

It's possible that in the future tools might allow you to evaluate whether to trust people based solely on their behavior inside the network. For example, say you see someone who issues an asset that's very liquid -- you can easily sell it. And say that allowing them to we you a dollar would save you ten cents on a transaction. You might elect to accept that risk. After a while, and after this trust line has produced some value for you, you might raise the trust to, say $5. It may be such that even if they default on the whole $5, you're still up overall because the trust line made payments cheaper for you.

But this future may never happen. I think it's likely that for the foreseeable future, you'll need reasons outside the network itself if you don't want to take unreasonable risks.

One reason is that this can be gamed. I can issue bitcoins and offer to trade $130 for them. I can then create a lot of accounts that also offer to trade $130 for them. This might make you think that it's a liquid asset. But once you agree to hold it, I can pull all those offers. Now in theory you could check the people who placed the offers and use heuristics to make sure they're legitimate. And certain types of transactions (such as those that pay a transfer fee to a gateway) can only be faked at a cost.

But for now, we suggest people only create pathways to businesses that they have a reason to believe will continue to redeem as they've agreed to.
466  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 06:04:42 AM
What happens if someone gets hit by a bus with a ton of outstanding debts?
You can only have a debt outstanding to someone who specifically choose to allow you to owe them money. If you're worried about this, don't extend any credit to individuals or ensure that there are provisions to cover those debts in the event of their death. Alternatively, extend a small enough amount of credit that the benefits of using and re-using that credit over and over outweigh the risk of the one-time loss should they default.

But this is one of the problems with community/social credit. It requires people to manage a fairly complex kind of risk. This is the main reason I don't think the world is ready for community/social credit yet. It will take sophisticated tools to sensibly manage that risk and perhaps also some social changes.
467  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc. on: September 27, 2013, 06:02:08 AM
A standalone browser client would still need to communicate with a server, right? Only the server can choose validators / set UNLs.
The client does need to communicate with one or more servers (as do servers, of course). Currently, only servers have a set of chosen validators.

It's still early in Ripple's evolution. You can build software that uses the protocol and connects to the network that has any combination of features and capabilities that you want. We're not quite sure how people are going to wind up using it. One possibility is that people will run "thin servers" and connect a browser-based client to their own server. Another possibility is that people will run "heavy clients" that have a list of validators and act more like servers do (though probably only as observers to the consensus process). Another possibility is that Ripple will be invisible and people will use it indirectly through things like federation. We've designed the protocol and the data structures to be flexible enough to support fairly light implementations that can still implement their own UNLs. The reference client isn't there yet. There's still a lot of work to do. It's still early.
468  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 27, 2013, 05:50:23 AM
1. A way to retrieve your account from ripple would be a good thing, I can contact a bank and get account access, I can contact an exchange and get account access but I cannot do this with the ripple wallet. If there was a worst case scenario and if I lost everything I would like another way to retrieve the account.
We definitely wouldn't want to do that because that would make us more of a central authority than we ever want to be. But perhaps a way to have your wallet provider be able to recover your secret wouldn't be a bad idea. We could make it opt in. Ideally, we wouldn't want your wallet provider to be able to do it alone, but if there's something you have to give them for them to be able to recover, then if you lose that you're again cut off from your account.
469  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc. on: September 27, 2013, 05:46:32 AM
I think a little hard would be a severe understatement. 99% of your users use ripple.com/client, which does not allow choosing validator nodes. Will ripple.com/client ever come with support for choosing your own validators, and no defaults?
Anyone else can set up a client and server now. The problem is that a trojaned client could steal your secret. A standalone client (or browser plug in) would be great to have. Anyone who wants to can implement one, of course. I know we have one in our plans, but I'm not sure what the timeline is. Again, this is another place where we agree. These are risks, and we'd prefer people did not have to take these risks so we're working to reduce or eliminate them.

If people have to trust us, that means we get the blame if something goes wrong and the risk that we might betray that trust is a disincentive to use the system. If people don't have to trust us, then we don't have to do anything or take any risk. We definitely do not want people to have to trust us.
470  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and Ripple inc. on: September 27, 2013, 05:43:28 AM
Are you saying you people could ignore Ripple inc. If they made a change that people didnt like?
Yes. It would be a little hard right now because the infrastructure to make it easy to do that isn't complete yet. Effectively, the community would probably just have to agree on someone to replace us. Until someone else could execute a full decentralization plan.

But we're hard at work on the transition to greater decentralization. We have no wish to control or operate the Ripple network. We have no desire to own the network or the protocol. The reason it's important that we get this right is that we want it to be as impossible for some other entity to become a central authority controlling the network. When we fully let go, we need to make sure nobody else can grab on.
471  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 05:36:27 AM
I get your point

So does trusting the ripple network require the same trust as trusting the ripple currency?

edit- you where one step ahead of me. I see the answer is yes
Not really. You're just trusting validators not to collude against you. When you extend a trust line, you are trusting someone to hold money for you or owe you money.

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Why if you can transact in the ripple network for any currency would the ripple currency itself ever become valuable and doesn't the business model require XRP to appreciate to become profitable?
The business model requires XRP to appreciate. Nobody would disagree that what we're trying to do is high risk. Success is definitely not guaranteed.

XRP is unique though. It's the only currency that can flow between any two parties with no trust path needed. It's the only currency in Ripple that has no counter-party. While other currencies can have transfer fees imposed on them by their issuers, XRP never has any transfer fee other than the transaction fee. We expect that people will make assets liquid on Ripple by making them liquid to and from XRP, and we expect that people who don't know what asset they'll need will tend to hold XRP.
472  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 05:29:26 AM
You can't get rid of OpenCoin and have a functioning Ripple, even the wiki admits that:

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If everyone chooses a completely disparate sets of validators the network will be unlikely to reach consensus that a particular version of the ledger is the one true and accurate ledger.
What happens if everyone chooses a completely different set of rules for what constitutes a valid Bitcoin block? Yes, people have to agree to work together for any system to function.

But no central authority is needed to make this happen. The rules for what constitutes a valid Bitcoin block today are de facto decided by Gavin. But he's not a central authority because nobody has to listen to him. People do because they know that cooperation is needed for the system to work and he is doing a good job. He can't sustain his position unless he is responsive to the community. If he were to make some absurd decision, few would listen to him and that would be the end. Yes, lots of people update their code to whatever release he publishes but only because they trust him and can withdraw that trust at any time.

Any number of organizations can publish lists of validators that they recommend. These lists can be algorithmically combined. If someone publishes a list that is nonsensical, you can just stop following them.
473  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 02:10:51 AM
Decentralization is not a boolean. When you have "11 out of 20 entities" must agree (or 1 out of 1 entities like now), is that really decentralized when you compare it to Bitcoin's "6600 out of 13200 entities" must agree?
I agree. Ripple was designed to be decentralized and is not really all the way there yet.

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The Bitcoin genesis block was intentionally unspendable - it is not added to the list of outputs, and Bitcoin clients will reject any transactions that tries so.

Please make your genesis XRPs unspendable, or stop comparing apples to oranges.
I'm making a genuine attempt to discuss issues with you honestly. If you aren't going to do the same, I'll stop wasting my time. The issue was administrative control and decentralization. You raised a criticism that Ripple cannot be decentralized which I rebutted it by pointing out that it's the norm that some entity holds administrative control over a system until it's decentralized. You are welcome to defend your claim or acknowledge that it's incorrect. Then you are welcome to move onto something else. But you are *not* welcome to change the subject when your claims are refuted and ignore the fact that they were refuted.
474  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 02:00:04 AM
Are you seriously saying that when OpenCoin unilaterally changed account reserve requirements, which is akin to Federal Reserve tampering with interest rates?
OpenCoin holds a majority of validators right now. I'm sure Satoshi made any number of changes to Bitcoin before it was open source. We genuinely don't want this power because others legitimately perceive it as a risk, and changing this is one of our priorities now. We designed the system to be decentralized and are working to get it there.

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Bitcoin will work if I have completely different nodes with someone else as long as we're on the same blockchain. It's not the same with Ripple.
So will Ripple. Nodes you connect to don't effect the data you see. You just need to be on the same ledger. I think our consensus scheme has a lot of advantages over Bitcoin's proof of work scheme, but one thing that is a disadvantage is that you need to maintain (or trust some other people to maintain on your behalf) lists of validators that you are willing to trust not to collude against you. We've been working on ways to make this as painless and secure as possible without compromising decentralization. It is a challenge.

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Tell me how I can print 100 billion XRPs.
Tell me how I can choose the Bitcoin genesis block, mining algorithm, or reward schedule. These systems are built under some entity's control and then that entity releases it into the wild such that it can never be imprisoned again.
475  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 01:52:01 AM
Ripple isn't and can't be decentralized, it's distributed. For Ripple to work, the majority of the users must have somewhat similar validators in their UNLs.
They must be somewhat similar, that's true. But Bitcoin only works if everyone has the same blockchain and the same rules to decide what constitutes a valid block, but since nobody gets to unilaterally decide what the blockchain is or force a blockchain that violates the rules on others, it's still decentralized. It is absolutely true that for X to use the system to pay Y, X and Y must be on the same ledger. But no entity gets to decide what the ledger is and the ledger can only transition based on defined rules that nobody can unilaterally change.

Whether a system is decentralized or not is a question of how its administrative functions work. By "administrative functions", I mean things that most people cannot do but that some entities have a special power to do. If it's "decentralized" then no single entity or small group of people can unilaterally seize administrative power. Bitcoin is decentralized in this way because it basically has no administrative functions other than changing the rules, and no single entity can change the rules. The community has to agree to change the rules for that to happen. Ripple was designed to be decentralized in this sense, but isn't quite yet because a single entity controls all the validators most people trust. We absolutely agree that we don't want things to stay that way. Once we get distributed validators, then it will be essentially impossible to provide any kind of administrative control without getting a large number of entities to agree.
476  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] The First Official Ripple Fork Development - NetPay (Join the development) on: September 27, 2013, 12:47:34 AM
which looks to compliment the Ripple network
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
477  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 27, 2013, 12:42:19 AM
My Ripple story

1. Created wallet, then unable to login.

2. Create new wallet same username, made sure to write down password

3. Going great, got a giveaway 1000XRP

4. Password no longer works, I had written the password down and used it before

5. Create wallet again, same username no more XRP all lost

Sorry to hear about that. Our wallet scheme has been improved significantly since then, but it is still a bit non-intuitive. One thing I should emphasize -- the client strongly urges you to write down your account secret. (It's a string the client generates that starts with an "s".) So long as you have that secret (and nobody else does), your funds are safe. You can always create a new wallet with the same secret.

Also, if you have any suggestions for better giveaways, we'd love to hear them.
478  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 27, 2013, 12:36:45 AM
Do ripple developers have any plans of offering insured transactions? That is what will make this work.
No, but there are other people who have that idea. Watch for announcements.

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Is that you or Jerry Garcia? Grin
Haha.

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Sorry I still have not figured out how to quote properly
It's pretty easy, you just put "quote" before the quote (in square brackets) and "/quote" after it, also in square brackets.

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"That won't do anything. The software is out there. Right now, we do run all the validators that people use, but if we disappeared, others would do so. One of our top priorities now is to distribute the set of validators and set up an infrastructure to make that self-regulating and decentralized."

How will people get paid for doing that work?
That would be up to the community to decide. It's certainly possible that without us to back it, Ripple would wither and die. That's probably true right now. But that also will change over time as more and more people have a vested interest in seeing Ripple succeed because it solves problems for them. If Ripple doesn't solve real world problems that real people have, it doesn't much matter if it goes away. If it does, then those people will have an incentive to sustain it.
479  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Ripple Q & A @ Joel Katz and OpenCoin on: September 26, 2013, 11:50:28 PM
*First how can a centralized institution ever be secure? We have seen the problems that bitcoin has encountered and watched bitinstant, liberty reserve and Mt Gox all cave under the regulatory pressures from the US government. What would make ripple any different? It is all in one spot if they wanted to shut you down it wouldnt be much of a problem they just show up at your office and pull the plug.
That won't do anything. The software is out there. Right now, we do run all the validators that people use, but if we disappeared, others would do so. One of our top priorities now is to distribute the set of validators and set up an infrastructure to make that self-regulating and decentralized.

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*How can we trust Ripple? You own the servers and issue the currency. How could we ever know that there is not a backdoor that would allow the dev. to create currency at will?
Every ledger is signed by every validator every few seconds. Every ledger includes a tree that justifies any changes in the main portion of the ledger. If someone's XRP balance increases, there must be a metadata entry justifying that change, or everyone in the world has proof Ripple has, through bug, subterfuge, or glitch, violated the rules.

Every ledger has two halves, a state half and a change half. Any changes to the state half (other than trivial changes to indexing and so on) must be justified by a signed transaction in the change half. If not, everyone will have proof that Ripple violated its invariants somehow. Any change that "disadvantages" someone must be justified by a transaction they signed. Any increase in XRP must be justified by a matching decrease (there is no way to create additional XRP beyond what exists in the genesis ledger). And so on.

We had to design the system so that people could trust it even after it was decentralized. We have no secrets. The source code is available. If we got anything wrong, we'll do our best to fix it.

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*Why cant you import trust? One of the most aggravating things for me when i decided to join the bitcoin community is that no one would look at outside factors in gauging my trustworthiness. The ass hats in OTC gave me an insanely hard time and wouldnt accept any information that I provided to support my reputation. The best indication of future behavior is past behavior. If you want to build a trust network then people should be able to import trust from other sites. I trust someone who has 5000 online ebay sales with 100 percent positive feedback. Why couldnt you import that trust and let people choose to accept or deny it?
Speaking for myself personally, I think community/personal credit may be Ripple's killer app over the long term. But we don't quite understand how to manage it yet. Hopefully the community will help us figure out the best way to do this.

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*Why dont you offer ID verification? Someones willingness to Id goes a long way in establishing their credibility. Anonymity and trustworthiness do not go together
That is definitely planned. We're working on a decentralized ID verification scheme.

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*Isnt the only real benefit to ripple over the trust system here on bitcoin talk is that it allows you to borrow from people who trust people that you trust?
No. Ripple has many other benefits, such as direct access to market makers for cross-currency payments and the ability to shift balances without having to go to or through the issuer.

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*You have said that the problem with ripple at the moment is the same problem BTC has in that it is very difficult to get fiat in and out of the system, Why? If it is a system based on trust why wouldnt you let people import any kinds of funds they like. Why not let people import debit card, credit card and PP funds? Label the type of funds and let people choose if they are willing to transact for them?
We'd love for people to do those things! Anyone can introduce arbitrary assets onto the Ripple network and everybody gets to choose which assets they consider valuable. That's what it's for.

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*Who owns it and what are their motives? What is the mission statement?
I'm not sure what you're asking. If you mean the Ripple protocol, nobody. If you mean the Ripple network, all the participants own their respective devices. We have no desire to control or own the protocol or the network.

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*Dont you think that instead of using ripple if you let each user have their own currency the system would work much better? For instance I would have Chris North coins and You would have a Joel Katz coins and based on your assets and credibility the valuation would change? That way instead of blindly trusting people that the people I trust trust, instead there would transparency. The way that is set up now doesnt take into account that some people are a better judge of credibility than others. I dont want to trust people just because you do you might not be any good at assessing trustworthiness.
That's what Ripple does. Anyone can issue an asset. Anyone can agree to accept any asset they want. The whole point of Ripple is to make payments work *without* any transitive trust.

Let's say you have a bank and I have a bank. You trust your bank to hold you money. I trust my bank to hold my money. If I want to pay you $50, I write you a check for $50. You don't trust me or my bank, but because that check allows your bank to owe you $50 more, you consider me to have paid you $50. You don't trust anyone but your bank. I don't trust anyone but mine. In the middle, either people who trust both banks, someone who is willing to trade dollars for XRP, or some other path makes the payment work. That's Ripple's big idea.

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*My goal with digital currency is to defund the governments of the world, I have lost faith in the idea of bitcoin because i dont see any real advantages that it offers that will appeal to the masses. I realize it has some benefits but the average person is not gonna go out and start using coins. They dont know or care about the monetary system. The reasons to use bitcoin is not important to the average person. For it to gain widespread adoption it has to be better than what is already in place and it simply isn't and I dont really see how it can be. How can ripple change that?
One big advantage is that it gives people currency choice. If Ripple takes over the world, you can get paid in local currency and receive dollars. When you buy groceries, you can spend dollars and the grocer receives local currency. That means you don't hold local currency, so your government can't inflate it our from under you. Don't like dollars? Hold gold. Like Bitcoins? Hold them.

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*If someone is my trust network establishes a lot of trust then borrows from everyone in the network and cuts and runs can I lose out?
No, you can only lose out if someone you choose to trust defaults on you for an amount equal to or less than the amount you trusted them to hold on your behalf. Payment paths only exist instantaneously while a payment is made. After that, there are only balances on trust lines that people have specifically chosen to create.
480  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Why Ripple has failed. on: September 26, 2013, 09:59:04 PM
In decades of banking and trading in Canada and USA well into 7 figures...
I have not lost a single penny... or lost any sleep over the security of my assets.
We're not claiming Ripple is "more secure" than conventional payment systems.

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Meanwhile, people whose money disappears on Ripple are writing Github tickets...
And being told they had "bad passwords". What fun.
We have yet to see a case where someone had a balance decrease when they didn't either place an offer or sign a transaction to authorize that decrease. If that ever happened, everyone would know it because balances are public and transactions are public. I definitely agree that protecting the private keys used to sign transactions is a huge issue for any crypto-currency system. We've been working on improving the way we do that, but I agree that there's lots more work to be done. This is a huge issue for both Bitcoin, Ripple, and pretty much any other decentralized crypo-currency system that gives people access to irreversible payments.
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