Bitcoin Forum
December 12, 2017, 08:57:34 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
  Home Help Search Donate Login Register  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 ... 125 »
1081  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What do you wish you could pay for with BTC? on: June 11, 2012, 10:00:08 PM
Lamborghinis   @ approx 100BTC each!


..but in the mean time it'd be nice if a few more computer parts suppliers accepted them.
1082  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: June 09, 2012, 06:22:42 AM
2012-06-08 siliconangle.com - Bitcoincard Puts Cryptocurrency in Your Wallet with a Mycelium Smartcard

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86450.0
1083  Bitcoin / Press / 2012-06-08 siliconangle.com - Bitcoincard Puts Cryptocurrency in Your Wallet ... on: June 09, 2012, 06:22:02 AM
Quote
Bitcoincard Puts Cryptocurrency in Your Wallet with a Mycelium Smartcard

Kit Dotson
2012-06-08

http://siliconangle.com/blog/2012/06/08/bitcoincard-puts-cryptocurrency-in-your-wallet-with-a-mycelium-smartcard/

...
The website Bitcoincard.org presents a product that uses a technology called Mycelium which integrated a very small (credit card sized) radio, user interface, e-paper device that will also enable Bitcoin transactions.
...
1084  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: June 09, 2012, 12:07:24 AM
2012-06-08 business.financialpost.com - Euro fears boost virtual currency Bitcoin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86392.0
1085  Bitcoin / Press / 2012-06-08 financialpost.com - Euro fears boost virtual currency Bitcoin on: June 09, 2012, 12:05:30 AM
Quote
Euro fears boost virtual currency Bitcoin

John Greenwood
2012-06-08

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/06/08/euro-fears-boost-virtual-currency-bitcoin/

Fearful of the future, Europeans are moving their money out of their banks and dumping it into safe havens such as U.S. Treasuries, Government of Canada bonds — and apparently the virtual currency Bitcoin.
...
1086  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: June 08, 2012, 01:33:28 PM
2012-06-07 forbes.com - Detaining Developer At US Border Increases Cryptocat Popularity

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/07/detaining-developer-at-us-border-increases-cryptocat-popularity/
1087  Bitcoin / Press / 2012-06-07 forbes.com - Detaining Developer At US Border Increases Cryptocat Pop on: June 08, 2012, 01:33:05 PM
A brief mention of Bitcoin in this one..

Quote
Detaining Developer At US Border Increases Cryptocat Popularity

Jon Matonis
2012-06-07

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/07/detaining-developer-at-us-border-increases-cryptocat-popularity/

...
Encryption programs like Cryptocat that safeguard our private conversations and correspondence may not be the only government target. Just last year, a bitcoin developer coming from China was denied entry and questioned for hours by US Customs agents about how Bitcoin worked, where he got them, and how he traded Bitcoin for legal tender.
...
1088  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A Warning Against Using Taint on: June 07, 2012, 01:46:24 AM
This is such a non-issue, but I thought I'd chime in. If you are a vendor and someone wants to spend tainted bitcoin at your store and you refuse them, your competitor probably will not.
Only if your competitor is outside of the physical jurisdiction enforcing the taint.
This may however be a good argument against implementing taint in any particular country - as it provides incentive for people to use foreign merchants, thus harming the local economy!

If however, the control-points  are things like supermarkets which have captive local consumers - it's unfortunately not going to be enough to stop it.

Anyway.. the likely implementation would be that the merchant accepts them, but applies the prescribed tax and asks for a further small payment before you walk out of the store.
1089  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A Warning Against Using Taint on: June 07, 2012, 01:28:42 AM
You don't have to accept coins that have been obtained dishonestly, either. That would be a personal choice. Because bad actors could respond, to honest traders who only making transactions with other honest people, with violence does not invalidate the idea.
Did you just skip over what he said above you? I don't know how many times I must repeat myself: it is NOT POSSIBLE to prevent anyone from sending you money, whether "tainted" or not. It just  is  not  possible. It is the way the system was designed from the ground up. Sure you can watch for "taint" yourself, but what are you going to do once it touches you? Return it? Keep it? Donate it?

It's true you can't stop someone sending you coins that are on somebody's taint-list.
How this is handled would depend somewhat on the particular jurisdiction enforcing the taint.

This is the reason I think any price advertised as simply X BTC - should refer to a taint-unaware price.
If someone using a taint-aware wallet is willing to accept the amount of tainted coins you offer for their product/service - then it's up to them to either ask for the equivalent they will be taxed upon spending it at a control-point, or to wear that cost themselves, or to spend those coins on the black-market or with someone else who values those tainted coins at full value. (The taint-publishing authority is effectively incentivising you to ask for 'clean coins' in the first place)

Of course - nothing will stop you from occasionally receiving coins that weren't tainted when you got them, but are on a taint-list by the time you go to spend them.
I'm arguing that this won't stop some authority implementing this sort of thing.  If your 'tainted' coins aren't particularly 'interesting' because they're later in the transaction tree - they'll just apply some small tax at a control point. If you received those coins from someone closely connected to the event of interest - well you can expect some sort of investigation.

Ugly as it may be philosophically - the software could make it easy for the merchants and average consumer to deal with.
It's all a balancing act that the authorities would have to perform in such a way that they don't overstimulate the black-market, whilst enhancing their capability to gain information about events of particular interest.

When the average Joe is assured that the 'taint' is all about catching child molesters, kidnappers and terrorists - they'll accept such a system, and once a significant proportion of local merchants and consumers are on board with it, the vast majority of consumers will feel unaffected by it.

The ones who are affected, will be those who don't advertise their prices as 'clean BTC'  - hence the virality of the system.

Don't mistake me for a 'fan' of this.  I'm putting forth what I suspect is an inevitability, and examining what it might look like, and how much of a problem it really is.
I'm really on the fence about whether a technical solution in the form of some sort of 'blinding' would be ideal.. or if a minor level of cooperation with authorities in this regard, in order to allow bitcoin to escape to become 'mainstream' is the best outcome.










1090  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A Warning Against Using Taint on: June 07, 2012, 01:07:18 AM
It can work *in a more mainstream setting* - because it's viral in nature, and if your local supermarket subscribes to a particular taint-list, it's in your interests to have wallet software which *understands* the taints that this supermarket subscribes to and the (initially small) penalties(taxes) it is enforced to enact.

Enforced?  By whom?
By the same local authorities which enforce all businesses to be registered and pay their taxes etc.
Bitcoin exchanges and popular high-transaction merchants can be required to implement taint-aware systems by whatever geographical jurisdiction they operate in.

It matters not.  Because it is so easy to mix coins, all you need are enough people willing to throw their 100% untainted coins into the mix and your approach fails miserably.
No - the mixing matters not. It's computationally intensive, but nevertheless practical with today's technology to follow the chain and apply taint in the appropriate percentages.


"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all."
 - Mario Savio

Nice.. but you seem to still be missing the point.
The various 'taint lists' are overlays that will be applied in multiple (usually geographic) jurisdictions. You will always be free to trade Bitcoins as if the taint lists don't exist with other like-minded taint-haters (or because particular taints are largely only enforced in a region you are unlikely to deal with). This isn't about changing the protocol, nor even the reference client.

The effect of various taint-lists being applied is that there will be a viral incentive for the average user to subscribe to them in order to maximize their wealth.
(In terms of being able to freely spend their coins at the various government-audited exchanges & merchants)
Now it's perfectly reasonable to argue that if someone advertises a price in 'BTC' - that this should imply *any* BTC ie a taint-agnostic transaction. I wholeheartedly support that sort of up-front honesty in the arrangement of any Bitcoin deal.


Hows that? Mostly irrelevant.  Tainting will work in a world where the core bitcoin.org software *never* implements any taint-aware code.

Ok, good.  So there will be no code in the client that will try to load your no-fly list.  That's fine then.

Of course. This much should be obvious by now.  
Subscribing to any (of the presumably multitudinous) taint-lists is completely optional - except that there is a clear viral pressure on the average consumer to opt into using taint-aware wallet software in order to avoid
a) penalty-taxes at control points
b) mandatory government reporting on your recent transactions if you happen to be 'early' in the chain of transactions since a particularly attention-worthy event.
(e.g kidnap proceeds, terrorism funding etc)



It'll be locally applied, and thus people will be locally incentivized to have taint-aware wallets - even if they hate the whole idea.

Have you been shopping on Silk Road?

No. Have you?  Are you being facetious here?
Perhaps you don't understand the point that taints can (I predict 'will') be applied if Bitcoin ever becomes seriously mainstream across the globe.

You'll always be free to laugh at the small nation on the other side of the world which implements this, and offer their citizens fewer 'clean' bitcoins from your stash in exchange for Bitcoins that those silly folk view as 'tainted'.   Profit for you! 
(At least until some sort of international cooperation amongst tainting authorities starts to make some of your coins spendable without penalty at fewer merchants)

The only way this sort of system won't work is
a) If some sort of 'blinding' mechanism gets built into the Bitcoin protocol
(see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82947.0   I don't know enough about this to know if it's feasible though)

b) The various taint-implementing authorities go overboard in applying taint - thus so expanding the pool of 'tainted' coins that the black-market economy is effectively stimulated.  (see my earlier comments about it being somewhat self-limiting in this regards)

c) political/social pressure makes tainting impractical for authorities to implement.  
I think this is a fools hope in that some authorities somewhere will implement it anyway. If you can manage to get the law in your country to declare it unconstitutional or unreasonable in some way to 'tax' people via this sort of system - good on you.. but when balanced against law-enforcement's mandate to curtail kidnapping, terrorism etc... good luck!


My preference would lean towards a) but with provisos.
I think your dismissal of the possibility of this sort of viral-tainting even occurring is damaging to the possible consensus required to avoid it in some technical manner.
A counter-argument to implementing a) would be that if law-enforcement truly can't curtail things such as assassination markets and other 'worst of the worst' events, then their only alternative is to crack down in the most draconian ways imaginable to declare Bitcoin utterly illegal and thus limit it forever to the black market.
I suspect that it would be preferable to live with the various self-limiting taint systems and allow Bitcoin to expand to more mainstream usage.

I've not seen anyone else comment on my notion that any authority which over-tainted would effectively be acting against their own interests by increasing the incentive to spend their coins on black-market goods and services.  If this is the case, and I think it is, then a world in which various taints are enforced is preferable to a world in which Bitcoin is equated with terrorism and treated in a zero-tolerance manner by authorities.

Taint systems or not - you'll always be free to transact Bitcoins with others who value them irrespective of taint.
With taint-systems - Bitcoin has a chance of serving more than the black market niche.


1091  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A Warning Against Using Taint on: June 06, 2012, 08:21:10 AM
Most of the complaints here seem to be of the sort: "I don't like it!!!"

No, the complaints are saying it won't work.  And unless you come up with a new reason why it might, we just keep going around in circles.

It can work *in a more mainstream setting* - because it's viral in nature, and if your local supermarket subscribes to a particular taint-list, it's in your interests to have wallet software which *understands* the taints that this supermarket subscribes to and the (initially small) penalties(taxes) it is enforced to enact.




I'm also not convinced that just naysaying it will stop it from popping up.

Ok,  how's this.  If anything in the open source Bitcoin.org project for taint were to be added I would help towards getting going a fork of that project where there would be no such concept or recognizance of this concept referred to as taint.  I would do what I can to help beat this idea into the ground to which it belongs.

Hows that? Mostly irrelevant.  Tainting will work in a world where the core bitcoin.org software *never* implements any taint-aware code.
It'll be locally applied, and thus people will be locally incentivized to have taint-aware wallets - even if they hate the whole idea.








1092  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A Warning Against Using Taint on: June 06, 2012, 07:44:13 AM
I think the negative responders to this sort of proposal are largely failing to recognize that such a system would be:
a) highly automated
b) smarter than they seem to give it credit (e.g various levels of 'taxation' at popular brick and mortar government-audited points)
c) viral

Alternatively - they do understand this and they're resisting it in perhaps the only way that *might* work: overwhelming popular rejection/distaste + playing down the practicality of it.

I asked this question on stack exchange a while back:

Is there any way the Bitcoin network could resist a viral tainted-coin tagging system implemented by regulators?
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2119/is-there-any-way-the-bitcoin-network-could-resist-a-viral-tainted-coin-tagging-s

The answer seems to be, technically no, politically/socially maybe.

I feel confident that some government somewhere will try it if Bitcoin ever goes mainstream.
If they are 'heavy handed' in applying taint - then the more tainted coins (and the higher taxed they are), the larger the split in fungibility.
If they produce a massive split in fungibility this way - all they succeed in doing is creating a subset of bitcoins which are largely used for blackmarket transactions.
If you end up with a chunk of tainted coin.. you then have an incentive to spend it on 'blackmarket' goods and services (rather than reporting the source or paying the audit-point taxes to spend it cleanly)  - increasing the size of the blackmarket economy the taint system is supposedly there to control!

Because of this - I think that although such taint systems are inevitable, they'll be largely self-limiting and only effective if applied judiciously to the worst of the worst.

Most of the complaints here seem to be of the sort: "I don't like it!!!"
Well duh.. but can we move beyond that and look at what might happen whether you like it or not!?

I'm not convinced that it's as big a problem as some think (due to self-defeating effects if too heavily applied).. and I'm also not convinced that just naysaying it will stop it from popping up. Better to model a light-touch vs heavy-touch taint system and try to get a feel for how it might play out.

1093  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2012-06-04 afr.com - Banks get ready for virtual cash on: June 05, 2012, 10:23:58 PM
Though the article does mention bitcoin, I wonder if bitcoin is really among the virtual currencies these banking folks have in mind in their planning.  I haven't seen any evidence to suggest it is, and I still think bitcoin is too small for them to really care about.  The "bitcoin" mention looks more like the author tossing out what he thinks is an example.

I wonder too. Investors and banks are looking where the masses of eyeballs are. They'll be gearing up to deal with the 'virtual currencies' of things like facebook, WoW etc - but I think something P2P and not driven/owned by a single corporation is still going to be a bit of a surprise for them in that it requires a heck of a lot more understanding than just striking a deal with a few major stakeholders and linking up a database or two.  They may have heard of Bitcoin - but I'm not convinced they understand the difference... or perhaps they do, and it's not just too small, but all too hard in comparison.
1094  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: MtGox account got cleared out on: June 05, 2012, 06:55:21 AM
As a matter of course, MtGox should be providing victims such as yourself with the IP addresses, logs/timestamps etc of recent accesses to your account.
If you are to file a police report, you should have all the relevant information about the unauthorised access to your account.


1095  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] Boost your account security thanks to Mt.Gox's new Security Center!!! on: June 05, 2012, 04:24:57 AM
Quote
...
With this new feature we have the opportunity to put an end to the phishing and hacking endemic which has plagued Bitcoin since its inception.
...

'endemic' is usually used as an adjective to mean 'restricted or peculiar to a locality or region '

Unless you specifically mean to imply that phishing and hacking are phenomena which are peculiar to the Bitcoin ecosystem, this is an unfortunate wording.
Heck.. it's unfortunate even if you do mean that.
1096  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: June 05, 2012, 02:12:55 AM
2012-06-04 afr.com (Australian Financial Review) - Banks get ready for virtual cash

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85502.0
1097  Bitcoin / Press / 2012-06-04 afr.com - Banks get ready for virtual cash on: June 05, 2012, 02:12:22 AM
Australian Financial Review

Quote
Banks get ready for virtual cash

DAVID RAMLI AND RUTH LIEW
2012-06-04

http://afr.com/p/technology/banks_get_ready_for_virtual_cash_I7LI6KZ7wx9TXNwUKWuc9I

...
Where traditional currencies such as the Australian dollar are guaranteed by governments, virtual currencies such as BitCoin often have no central organising groups or value.

But despite the risks, usage is rising.
...


Yes it's a duplicate posting, but I don't consider posting a redirecting spamvertising URL to be a proper article report. Mods can decide which thread to delete.
1098  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: June 03, 2012, 10:48:24 PM
2012-06-03 udacity.com - CS387 Unit 6 - Applied Cryptography

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85223.0
1099  Bitcoin / Press / 2012-06-03 udacity.com - CS387 Applied Cryptography on: June 03, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
Online university-level education provider 'Udacity' talks about bitcoin (as well as Tor etc) in their CS387 class - 'Applied Cryptography'
Quote
Applied Cryptography (CS387) Science of Secrets
 - Unit 6: Using Cryptographic Primitives

Udacity
Professor David Evans
2012-06-03


http://www.udacity.com/view#Course/cs387/CourseRev/apr2012/Unit/4001/Nugget/6001
(Bitcoin discussion starting at Unit 6, part 27)



... or on youtube

CS387 playlist:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL146831BEFADFE152


Specifically.. starting around video 49

Bitcoin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdsS8jFVv2c

Bitcoin Solution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qY0elXs5Xg

Provide Scarcity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJxVXyvccgI

etc



 
1100  Bitcoin / Press / Re: NEW articles in Press Forum on: May 31, 2012, 10:28:25 PM
2012-06-01 smh.com.au - The new underbelly

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84532.0
Pages: « 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 [55] 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 ... 125 »
Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!