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2401  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reddit comments on a thread. Interesting discussion on: July 12, 2011, 03:46:36 PM
Jessy Kang has posted some very trollish posts in the past, so I don't blame people for taking her words with a grain of salt. In this case, though, she does make many good points.

This is why serious exchanges of ideas are best done on anonymous boards: neither reputation nor authority get in the way of ideas. Maybe in the future I'll add an anonymous section to the forum.

As another potential merchant interested in bitcoin (as well as interested in implementing bitcoin in a certain closed source shopping cart system used by merchants) I found her posts very enlightening.
I've read them all - except those that apparently were deleted by mods.

Please post evidence of her 'Trollish' posts.  Right now I'm taking *your* words with more than a grain of salt.
Evidence...  please.
2402  Other / Meta / Kanged! The operators of this forum should be more embarrassed than vegetta. on: July 12, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
So maybe you think vegetta was nicely 'Kanged' (A verb to describe ownage by Jessy Kang) in the thread so kindly publicised via reddit.
( http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20984.0 )

The real travesty of people not taking good advice (which just happens to come from Jessy Kang again) has gone on in relative obscurity in the 'Newbies' area.

Take a look at some of her early posts regarding the Newbie restriction policy with regards to merchants:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=21320;sa=showPosts;start=120

A tl;dr summary snipped from her copious writings might be:
'The current "newbie" policy is poorly conceived at best, and a potential disaster for the currency at worst. Even the use of the disparaging term "newbie" is hardly better than calling them "marks"...

Simply put, if you want people to join your club- you don't create new obstacles to put in their path.
'

But really - don't just tl;dr it - read it and weep - especially if you're a moderator or admin.

That topic deserves to be posted on reddit for their amusement - but really... can't we just fix it?  Please!?
2403  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 01:36:55 PM
Glanced through this whole thread, and think you're onto something.

Observation: Isn't it funny how we all (at least in the US) can look at a $5 bill, three $1 bills, 5 quarters, 6 dimes, a nickle and 4 pennies and quickly come up with $9.94? Imagine if someone on the boards here suggested that a 'gavin' is 0.25 btc, and a 'binary' is 0.05, he would get laughed off the boards.

I'm a little embarrassed - but I hadn't actually worked out what US dimes and nickles were until now. Thanks for prodding me to look up US coins and get to grips with how you do things over there. (I'd actually just assumed you pretty much dealt with dollars and cents and that quarter, nickle and dime were some sort of archaic term!)

I do think it underscores the point that *instantly recognizable* subunits are vital part of the maths of trade.
They also should be relative to the prime unit: i.e in the case of the USD - you have the quarter and the half dollar
Correspondingly for bitcoins - the subunits should be relative to the whole BTC (not some unit which is a fraction of a bitcent)

2404  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reddit comments on a thread. Interesting discussion on: July 12, 2011, 01:24:56 PM
(cue paranoid calls that I too am a shill paid to bring down bitcoin!)

Nah, you're just defending her because she's hawt, is what this obviously is. Wink

White knighting  Wink

That thread is priceless.

haha.. because of course.. we click on female profiles before reading any of their posts  Roll Eyes

She seems like the last person to need anyone white knighting for her.. either online or in person. Wink
2405  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitPonzi: GLBSE pyramid scheme! on: July 12, 2011, 12:57:54 PM

What I would recommend you do is begin a rating service that investigates each asset on GLBSE and gives it a safety rating. This is something thats needed and allows regular investors to choose more wisely.

Spoken like a true laissez faire economist!

Despite my protestations above - I do have some respect for this approach.
It's the pragmatist in me that thinks  - without such a system in place already - the damage is being done.

I hope if/when some 3rd parties offer rating services - you are able to integrate their ratings directly into your interfaces.



2406  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reddit comments on a thread. Interesting discussion on: July 12, 2011, 12:47:17 PM
I found Jessy Kang's postings in that thread so insightful (and amusingly but justifiably abrasive)
that I thought I'd follow up on Vegetta's suggestion to 'Go search all her other posts in this forum'.

According to him she is a Troll, 'not interested in working with the Bitcoin community', and 'This is not the only post she is trouble making in !'

What I've actually found so far is someone astute enough and concerned enough about bitcoins image to worry that it might not be the right time for bitcoin to be associated with her (legal) adult-oriented business.

She makes great points about the media's portrayal of bitcoin and it's general lack of understanding of bitcoin - but also the bitcoin community's apparent lack of understanding of business reality.

Looks like I might have to venture into the politics part of the forum.
The sad thing is - enough rabid political sqawks seem to leak into the general cyberscape around bitcoin to scare off the average bitcoin-curious merchant.


(cue paranoid calls that I too am a shill paid to bring down bitcoin!)
2407  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitPonzi: GLBSE pyramid scheme! on: July 12, 2011, 12:21:51 PM

Your exchange your rules.. but it strikes me that you're making a gift for whatever competitors come along and setup an exchange that feels more 'business-like'.

GLBSE is just a platform, with the exception of cheating people we take no position on whats traded.

The issuer is upfront on exactly what this is, a Ponzi scheme, if people decide to buy it then they are gambling, and the risk as a result is theirs.

Nefario.

Yeah I got that already..  your reply is just the tl;dr version of your terms and conditions.

The point of my post was about whether you had any concerns about the types of assets you admit affecting the perception of your business, and likely (IMO) effects on growth.

I think you'll do well from the die-hard libertarian quarter - not so much from the general investor/business community.
Your chosen position is entirely consistent with commonly perceived ideals of deregulation and decentralization in the bitcoin community.

It worries me that operations such as yours will deter many from the general uptake of bitcoin - not just your own business.

If it worries a guy like me - it'll positively send some others packing. Hopefully I'm wrong however and the majority of the world will jump into this wild west with open wallets and reckless abandon!



2408  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reddit comments on a thread. Interesting discussion on: July 12, 2011, 11:29:35 AM
oh wow.. that thread is gripping reading.  Train wreck is right. I see outsiders (with relevant experience!) giving free advice civilly (at least at first), and the response is a mixture of petulance and paranoia, as if it's all some attack on bitcoin.



2409  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 09:24:19 AM
Well it was meant to be about unit names and coloured visual hints to aid in identifying them at a glance and assisting in dealing with decimals... not specifically colored text.

isn't a written number, text? or do you mean the bitcoin and si symbol?

Yes a written number is text. I mean the bitcoin logo symbol thing and any other element of the user interface that might be appropriate and tickles the designers fancy. Maybe it's the background behind the text, or a coloured underline.
Some sort of reasonably-standardized colour association - along with standard names, and generally recognised shapes/icons.
2410  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 08:55:56 AM

this makes a gap lol, we like lesbians(tv/media type not stereotypical type) but not gays, generally. but this thread is about colored text not sapphism or the like.

Well it was meant to be about unit names and coloured visual hints to aid in identifying them at a glance and assisting in dealing with decimals... not specifically colored text.

2411  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Currency Symbol ฿ on: July 12, 2011, 08:19:29 AM

If you can't see the hash, I highlighted it in this one:



I like this, I was hoping for something that doesn't have anything to do with letters of alphabet or keyboard. But I like this because it's meaningful, hashing plays an important role with bitcoins.

If people really want a symbol based on writing, maybe we could also use an alternate symbol based on Kanji. I don't know if Satoshi would mind this. Personally I like to stay away from my nationality, but maybe he is not the same.

I like this thing with the hash too.. except I can't quite get away from seeing it as a 3.

Whatever is used as a symbol - I hope people stop suggesting we borrow/steal the Thai Baht symbol ฿ .
It's a terrible idea and I don't understand why people think it even began to have wings. Leave the poor Baht alone!


2412  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 07:39:49 AM

You do have the proper breakdown though.  2 (space) 3 (space) 3

9.87 654 321

It wouldn't be hard to implement spaces into any GUI, and it easily identifies how significant (or insignificant) the numbers are.  (Notice I stayed away from any naming references.  Smiley )



Actually - I guess this is the equivalent of what has been talked about in other threads.
Using the bitcent as the relative unit for subsequent ones.

What you propose is effectively
87 bitcents
654 millibitcents
321 microbitcents

I don't support using the bitcent as the unit to base other subunits on..   but I guess it's a possibility.
2413  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 07:24:31 AM

Julz, I took a step back from the naming argument and proposed a simple way to identify the significance of digits.  Some people identify with words, others with images.  Splitting it up into 2/3/3 is a good idea because 1) we only have 8 digits, not 9 and 2) we are used to 2 digits after the decimal.

I agree with you that this spacing would conflict with the official names on the positions, but we don't need to call them by official names.  After all, no one says "That $9.99 book costs 9 dollars, 9 decidollars and 9 centidollars.  Smiley

We call the first two bitcents, which would be easily accepted.
We call the last three satoshi
We just need to create a name for the middle three.


Yeah.. I know I kind of ignored your statement "Notice I stayed away from any naming references."

Really.. I think the public will have enough trouble with 'satoshi' not being SI let alone adding another strange one in the mix.
Also - there's the possibility of division of BTC to further than 8 decimal places in future - at which point you'd have to create yet another non SI unit.

I guess it's a novel approach.. but I don't think it makes the maths any easier!




2414  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 07:08:06 AM

You do have the proper breakdown though.  2 (space) 3 (space) 3

9.87 654 321




I really think we're going backwards here.
You've broken it up at 10^-2  10^-5 and 10^-8

10^-2 is bitcents (again)
10^-8 is satoshi
but now you have a new unit 10^-5   and no you cannot call it micro(something)

Look at the chart again.

The positions of milli, micro and nano after the decimal point are non-negotiable.
Not my rules - it's the way these prefixes operate on the whole planet and always will.

EDIT: fixed silly mistake - obviously should be 10^-x not 2^-x
2415  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 07:00:37 AM
The Satoshi is a stupid unit.  Make them all nano in that range. There's no need to break up the standard greek prefixes.

I was thinking why start with 3 decimal places?  Most, if not all, currencies go to the 2nd decimal place, which represents 1/100th of the whole.  The idea of 1/1,000th is foreign to everyday people/cultures.

I propose the following schema, which takes care of the Satoshi breaking the pattern.

9.87654321

9 BTC
87 centibits
654 microbits
321 satoshibits

But that doesn't work.
It's not 654 microbits
- it's 6 milli and 543 micro
or 6543 micro

If you're proposing that the 'micro' in your 'microbit' is not the standard SI micro..  then I don't think you'll get any agreement with that around here.



2416  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 06:22:15 AM
why would we use a logo as a sign for currency? whats wrong with typing μBTC or μɃ0.69

Both have their place. I find that a strange question. When I build a UI - there are times when only an icon will do.
I can see a use for 16x16 mBTC, μBTC etc icons. Perhaps some web developers will and some won't.

As modern web designs tend towards larger cleaner interfaces - the importance of the 16x16 icon might be less I guess.
2417  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 06:08:54 AM
Here's my attempt with a proper mu at 16x16

B


vs

uB


ok.. so arguably the is better

pB


Well.. they all come out pretty bad at that scale - so perhaps my argument isn't valid..
but the p and do look confusable to my eye in the cruddy examples given.
An icon designer may well be able to make the distinction apparent.

2418  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 05:50:06 AM

That's all very well if the prefix makes up the entire icon!
Try putting it as a prefix to the bitcoin B at that size.

I'm no graphic artist - so perhaps with the right font choice it could be made distinct.
2419  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 05:16:02 AM
sorry if someone told you his already.

USE THE DAMN MU SIGN μμμμμμμμμμμμ

NOT uTORRENT μTORRENT notice the "stick" hanging off the u. μ≠u

To type this magic letter, hold alt and press 0181 on your keypad, if you do not have a keypad or use a mac, too bad.

sorry, I do sincerely apologize, this just is my pet peeve.

Well I deliberately didn't use it in the logo because when you shrink down to 16x16 for icon size - it looks too much like a p - which might be needed for picocoins.

I sympathize somewhat with the purist point of view..  but I'm guilty of certain bias towards practicality when it comes to technology.
"if you do not have a keypad or use a mac, too bad." just isn't good enough.  

In short.. yeah.. I get your peeve..   but like I've had to suck it up and tolerate American spelling and pronunciation such as 'aluminum' .. which after all - is a slow perversion of the English language Wink    maybe you'll just have to suck it up, grit your teeth and bear it?

Either that.. or lobby keyboard manufacturers to dedicate a key to it.
(Doesn't solve the fact that it'll be mistaken for p at small sizes though. Frankly I think μ is doomed as far as average joe on the internet is concerned)



2420  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Unit Colour Chart on: July 12, 2011, 04:26:27 AM
Heh, sorry to make it even more confusing, but I think you should stick with silver as the colour that comes after gold (i.e. use silver for mBTC) Tongue
Perhaps think of it as a metallic silvery blue if that helps? Wink
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