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341  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 15, 2013, 07:37:13 AM
I am urging the author of Decrits to have a rethink about the key paradigm shifts he thought of and back away from all the unnecessary complexity he is adding on top of those key paradigm shifts in search of some Utopia that can't exist.

Right, because proof-of-work based on storing terabytes of data is a simple affair. Or a somehow more fair affair. (How does this make the network efficient?)

Here's the thing, to make money via the network expansion in decrits, you don't even need to own a computer, you only need to accept and transact with decrits.

I'm not sure how you can rationalize the inherent creation of a cartel of shareholders by saying that we just need to hope one is honest and everything will be ok. What is the long-term benefit here? You claim you'll be honest, but you also want there to be speculation on these shares, as I presume for some return on investment. This places a few in positions of power over the many. One reason for this you mentioned was "overloading" but I have already shown that this is not an issue. Even if there are four hundred thousand shareholders, the network bandwidth and storage requirements will be minimal. This design has a phenomenal chance of scaling up to the population of the Earth without running into problems with computer technology or the hope that it will keep up with network demand.

The more you consolidate the people who have an incentive to use the system, the more you will consolidate the people who use the system. This is pretty KISS. The more you also encourage people to make shitclones because they missed the boat, and the more likely those shitclones are to just debase your currency faster than you expect anyway. Why are you forgetting this? Pandora's box is open. You aren't going to get people to blindly stick with you because you were there first. You need something that has staying power.

It's great and all that you are willing to accept where the ideas will improve upon your design, but it's not so great that you are willing to drop others as overly complex because they don't fit your view of how the currency will be debased. It is terrible that you've used gold as an example, the money that has enslaved more of mankind and for far longer than any other.

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As for stable currency, that is an illusion that can only be enforced by the state (until it fails and value goes to 0). Has gold ever been stable in price throughout history? No!

If you attempt something unnatural, you will surely fail.

Resorting to appeal fallacies now? Please take the time to understand the currency system--because you have repeatedly stated that you don't--before passing judgment. If you are as enlightened as you think you are, you should be able to see the magic of it. Otherwise, keep start asking me questions until you do--because you will. This post and this post will get you started.
342  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 15, 2013, 01:33:35 AM
Your glaring flaw is trying to shove all your fixes under one roof.

Actually, that's bitcoin's flaw. Bitcoin's security, distribution, and monetary schemes are all housed in one system designed to solve the decentralized cash problem. The security, distribution, and monetary schemes in Decrits are three separate entities. One has no control over the other. These are key concepts that I have spent 2 years developing. And it is a paradigm shift.

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Once you stop trying to do that and start promoting sanity in the PEOPLE rather than perfection in your SYSTEM,

And again, you missing the real point. The better the system, the more people are willing to use it. Promoting an opportunity to profit off the backs of others for nothing is not going to engender a healthy ecosystem.

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then you realize that half of what you set up is scaffolding and the other 45% is an application of a smaller component.

No, every piece has a very specific reasoning. The system, since it is made up of distinct entities, has more avenues of vulnerability. But none of these is as powerful as a 51% attack which can effectively destroy the network. And all difficult problems with the functioning of such a complex network have already been solved by me. I have admitted there may be unforeseen vulnerabilities. I have admitted some foreseen vulnerabilities. They still have nothing on the 51% attack, and I designed a system to respond (section 4) to anything.

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Fixing all the thing in all the same time is not a good sign.

The currency is intended to evolve if I screwed up. The platform for evolving is part of the currency. It is an efficient, decentralized, adaptable attempt at making a complete replacement for fiat. Bitcoin and its clones can only replace each other.
343  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 15, 2013, 01:08:50 AM
Like I said, I thought it was interesting, but out of all the communities actually building anything it looks like Feathercoin is taking the lead.

A hopeful group of a few dozen computer nerds does not a foundation for money make.

Bitcoin has so many critical flaws that perhaps you are not even aware of, so you are willing to champion something that has one or two of the flaws "gussied up" so that you feel like you're accomplishing something. You're falling for the same trick, though.

I didn't set out to fix one problem with bitcoin and currencies in general, I set out to solve them all.

I don't care if it's a ridiculous notion--the point is to move forward, not backwards as bitcoin and its clones would have us do.
344  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 15, 2013, 12:40:05 AM
Details versus big picture again.

The big picture is that bitcoin is a currency pyramid, and any design that copies this is going to meet the same fate.

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That's not bitcoin's fault.

You did not understand what I was saying. It is most absolutely bitcoin's fault, not the fault of the infrastructure. Bitcoin is in every way a commodity that can be traded easily. It is not a currency. The mentality of "having to be there first" means that anyone who isn't there first will learn that it is a complete joke. You won't be able to keep finding a new breed of sucker when the presence of something that is actually designed to be a currency stands right next to it.

People are looking for an answer to the problems of modern money. Bitcoin keeps telling them that it is not that answer. That is why the lack of infrastructure you blame does not exist. This community feeds off of itself.

If you took the time to understand the implications of the decrits monetary system, you might actually find it to your liking, regardless of how I might proselytize.
345  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 15, 2013, 12:11:58 AM
This is what makes me lose faith in what seems an interesting model.

The most painless system moves fastest.
The fastest system becomes widespread.

You're arguing about functional advantage when memetic advantage is the topic.

Bitcoin is the hare. Measuring its success by volatile speculation is like trying to measure the event horizon of a black hole.

Bitcoin is incredibly much less useful than it appears to be. If the Cyprus event had been ongoing while Decrits was at a reasonable level of popularity, there would be no turning back. Bitcoin failed at an amazing opportunity. Again.

If the monetary systems of the world are really heading, or are already at, where we all think they are, then the value of Decrits will vastly outweigh the value of bitcoin. Bitcoin will only be valuable to those that hold bitcoins. And that value won't be much, because everyone and their monkey's uncle is encouraged to create a clone to hope that the same effect happens, even if on a lesser scale. It can be gussied up with a tweak, but it's still the same old shit.

There is little incentive to create a Decrits clone. And the currency will quickly diminish the fears of businesses looking to accept it. The fears of bitcoin only increase as bitcoin is more well-understood.

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Yes, it's unfortunate that businesses trade from BTC to fiat immediately.
But it also makes the new and old BTC using customers able to live their fantasy long enough for it to become a reality.

I think you mean, "live their fantasy long enough until they are left holding the bag." Bitcoin's scheme is not in anyway sustainable. It will not make the world a richer place, and it will not reach any of its lofty promises, especially not when there is a competitor like Decrits. It doesn't have to be Decrits, but it will exist, and bitcoin will fall to it.

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I find it funny how the detail oriented folks like yourself seem to miss the bigger picture by a mile.

I could quite easily say the same of you.
346  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 14, 2013, 03:10:29 PM
- it wastes energy (but who cares)

It's a pretty significant weakness vs. a currency that doesn't. Of course bitcoin proponents compare it to fiat's energy use, leaving out the possibility of a non-PoW competitor.

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As far as I can see, this consensus CB idea solves the above weaknesses.

What is to not prefer about it over Bitcoin?

Several thousand nerds will *not* become (b/m)illionaires for doing essentially nothing.

I think I could significantly boost the capacity to implement, if I can be convinced we have the correct design.

How close are you to being convinced now? Wink
347  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Possible flaw in Ben Laurie paper on Bitcoin efficiency on: May 14, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
That's true, he is making a black-and-white argument, where I am making a more probabalistic or practical argument.  The agreement system of checkpointing is a working agreement system, it just has different practical characteristics than Bitcoin so I don't consider it as a possible stand-alone protocol.  It lacks the strength of the original.

I consider it possible as a stand-alone protocol. I also think it is much stronger. See sig.

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Also I see what you're saying about the developers.  They could either displease the majority of users, resulting in a permanent fork, or a schism could arise among the developers themselves, also resulting in a permanent fork, although they would have to be convincing to drag a significant number of users with them.  So far this has not happened.  In all of the forks in the open source world, I don't personally recall any that actually destroyed their project.

This is more than just your average piece of open source software. Developers should not have the power to fracture the community, it isn't good for anyone.
348  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 14, 2013, 11:10:37 AM
There are EC systems that have deterministic sigs.

http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/
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(...)  Signatures are generated deterministically; key generation consumes new randomness but new signatures do not. (...)

This is what happens when you spend 2 years and thousands of hours and tons of notes. You forget a lot of stuff. Ed25519 was already slotted as my most likely choice some time ago because of the improved side channel attacks and faster batch verification (I also designed a way to "pulse" the network to make that verification useful).

Anyways, because I have ideas that will make multiple different DSAs part of the system, and easily, this is still a problem from the standpoint of not requiring SHs to use Ed25519.

However, I already fixed that problem too if I still need the randomness reusing an idea I had for something else. Tongue
349  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 14, 2013, 02:17:08 AM
I think I came up with a cool way to address some of the problems I see with having CNPs drop seemingly valid, but suspicious TBs.

Instead of outright dropping them, honest CNPs will simply delay them significantly. The significance of the delay perhaps depending on the severity of the suspicion. This means that honest CNPs don't even have to be running similar heuristics (this was a worry with dropping TBs, I think it could fracture the CN). During the delay period, the CNP pretends as if this data does not even exist.

I *think* that this can cascade into a brilliant line of defense. If I am right and, for example, 10 SHs in a row attempt to cause the SH before them to get a soft strike, most or all of those 10 SHs will receive soft strikes instead. It requires more thought though. But it's already an idea in my notes with regards to ordinary transactions--holding transactions a CNP believes is either pre- or post-dated because time-honesty is somewhat important to the network, so why not reinforce it.

I believe this will also provide for an easier way to reintegrate from legitimate network splits.
350  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 10:30:54 PM
Aah, ok.,
I think its insanely improbable, but you can't rule it out completely i guess.

Even if finding the most opportune way to attack is very improbable, the attackers will still be able to check many different outcomes and select the best. This is not good.

But if we continue in theory, the attack is irrelevant because it can be identified long before the attackers would be able to hurt the honest SHs. If Walmart's cartel was controlling a large portion of consensus, everyone would know that Kmart's transaction verification is very slow. Kmart would not be wise to keep something hurting its business a secret.

Since the code that CNPs use to drop TBs is client-side, it could be modified to start being more aware of SHs intentionally dropping valid transactions (perhaps this is something that should be included from the start). Care has to be taken with this though. In the weakest prevention scenario using this type of defense, at the very least Walmart's transactions would start taking longer to approve, and Walmart must start being honest again or it will be in a ridiculous situation.


edit: I mixed up two different attacks there, since there are sort of actually 3 attacks that have been recently discussed and the third is a sort of combination of the other two. It's all starting to run together at this point. Decrits is not weak vs. any of them, though yes a few shenanigans are possible given an entity controls a *very* large portion of consensus. But I don't expect perfection from Decrits, and that is why rather than creating a *crits clone to fix an identified problem, the network could instead adapt, or worst-case split peacefully with each ideal going separate ways. I have some really neat ideas for section 4, but fleshing out 1, 2, and 3 is much more important for now.
351  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 10:16:44 PM
Is it necessary that the designated Shareholder for each block be the ONLY one capable of mining it or would it be OK if just a very small group was eligible, perhaps a rolling group with one added and one removed every block?

There are several reasons why selecting 1 SH per TB is important. 1) Reduction of data usage. The less people creating blocks for a specific window means there is less duplication of data. Even if I have a design to make duplicates use as little as data as possible, this small amount is still multiplied by potentially hundreds of thousands of nodes. 2) Determining the correct order of the network is easy. If 10 or 100 people are competing to make the same block, no one can really be very sure how reliable any block is. Therefore they have to wait for later blocks to accept them or whatnot, and transactions are not very secure in the mean time. 3) Depending on how it is set up, having rolling groups would make it less easy to determine when you need to be online, though having groups could make it less likely that any blocks are missed, but this also comes with 2)'s caveat that blocks are not reliable. Part of the nice thing about the Decrits system is that transactions are irreversible within 5-15 seconds.

And SHs are not mining these blocks like proof of stake, they are assigned and only need to create a block and sign it. Nothing more.

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Is it necessary that the random ordering be completely unpredictable or dose it merely need to be proportionally distributed so no one individual can monopolize it?  Dose it need to change every cycle between Consensus blocks, or could the same pattern suffice several times in succession provided that Shareholders were equally represented?

No it is not completely necessary that the order be random, but as I mentioned in another post I was planning on using that randomness for some other features. Oh well, I'll find another way.

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Or maybe keep the tree intact and just pick a random point within it to begin the traversal from.

What point? Wink

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Infact you could possibly do this with ALL the wallet holders and then get everyone in on the action of being a shareholder and validator, but use some secondary factor to weight the validation privilege on stake, say by traversing the tree in steps of a certain amount of coin balance rather then a certain number of account holders.  Now your change of being picked is proportional to balance and your immune to Sybil attack.

Sorry, but screw proof of stake or similar ideas. It has just as many caveats as proof of work except that it *might* use less energy. Decrits is already immune to a sybil attack. And changes like these will make section 4 impossible to implement, and it is a most necessary part of the proposal (though barely described) because it allows the network to adapt to the future and it allows for a peaceful network split in the case of monetary oppression.
352  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 05:13:37 PM
They won't be able to come up with a hash to their likings in reasonable time.

Last words, etc. etc. Tongue We are already presuming the attacker has an insane amount of money to bother with this attack, insane hardware to calculate best case scenarios for hurting the network is not much more to ask from a theoretical attack vector.
353  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
The attacer won't have the time to do the extra computation because he needs all his power just to keep up and be in the same position he was before. He would need extra time and resources to make the special hashes.
The more extra information you need the hash to contain the more (exponentially) resources you will need to complete the task within some time limit.

The vulnerability is that the hash of all the sigs was being used to generate a random number, but anyone can use a different value for k to create a different signature for the same hash. It's an expensive operation because EC requires a lot of heavy math, but it still offers the last person to sign many options in how to rearrange the network rather than just two.
354  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 04:02:33 PM
51% attacks is possible in your currency too. people can and will ALWAYS disagree.

That's fine, but they're forced to get the f off the network that doesn't want them.
355  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 13, 2013, 04:01:36 PM
So... early adopters who devote GPU power to the Decrit network won't have a big payoff if it takes off? I don't think we live in a world (yet) where a significant % of the population is willing to do things solely for the common greater good.

For early adopters, my initial idea is to award multiples of coins vs. what would normally be awarded. If the award was 2 decrits, early adopters will receive 10 or 20 decrits instead at the very beginning, with this number reducing over the first 3 years back to the 2 it is supposed to be. Each time the award lowers, if there is any demand, the price should increase closer to the final cost to produce.

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It also sounds like there's much less personal benefit towards providing processing power. Or maybe I've misunderstood the random distribution of new currency part. If I drop $ on hardware to "mine" Decrits, I'd expect to have some reasonable expectation of a payback period of say < 1 year.

There won't be any random distribution of currency for the first 3 years (if that is how long the post-live bootstrap is) because there won't be many coins in existence or many transactions to support it.

After the network gains some traction, people will earn money just for being transmitting nodes or for being shareholders. After the bootstrap is over, *everyone* will have an equal opportunity to profit from the network expanding as money will be distributed randomly in addition to the minted currency. It will not require a rat race for who can outspend others on better hardware.
356  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
In bitcoin it is 51% of hashing power. Decrits is 99%+ resistant but 99% of what?

To any attack that could invalidate, prevent, or double spend transactions.

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I strongly suggest you do it. It is required before implementation so it won't hurt anyway.

I will be working on the wiki soon.
357  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits: The 99%+ attack-proof coin on: May 13, 2013, 01:55:18 PM
99% doesn't sounds that great when your money is at stake.  What % do you think bitcoin is?  Has to be over 99%.

It is 51% in the absolute best-case scenario. Where have you been hiding?
358  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 13, 2013, 01:40:00 PM
Is the best possible summary still in the OP?

Probably not. Wink

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Note: if fiat can't buy in, there won't be this gambler's euphoria interest that provides Bitcoin its early adopter boost.

I know, it is a necessary failing that the people Decrits will attract are those that are actually interested in furthering the best interests of society as a whole rather than their own personal greed. Once Bitcoin collapses a few more times as it tears itself apart, even the greedy ones will come to realize that this system is better for them too.
359  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 13, 2013, 01:03:26 PM
If the wobble is deterministic, it can be gamed. There is no way around the disappointing fact that the input entropy is deterministic.

If the wobble is determined by time (or CB #) plus the public keys of the shareholders, the only way to game it is to add or remove shareholders, neither of which is easy. Adding wastes more of their finite resources, removing some reduces their power. Either way the network "wins."

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But you didn't address the problem that too many peers could mean network overload, given a mesh propagation. The attacker can add too many SHs.

I don't think you have really taken the time to understand the implications of the minting system. It is not cartel-friendly. No, it is not impervious to some entity gaining a lot of power, but it is also easy to create another network that does not rely on having any amount of hashing power for its defense.

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They could send transactions to themselves to avoid historical analysis detection as rogues. So what is they lose 50% of transaction fees, as they charge these losses to the customers in form of higher prices

The "so what?" is answered by this: it is a profit opportunity for honest people to join as a SH and reduce the evil entity's power.

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Dept or other national security budget or even the $5 trillion black budget that is well documented.

I'd rather not devolve into this kind of thing. The network will support any massive fiat buy-in by redistributing it in the form of free decrits. Anyone attempting to do this will lose a massive amount of wealth.
360  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: May 13, 2013, 11:49:56 AM
Okay I like the idea of allowing multiple SHs to sign in the same TB period, then we aggregate all the transactions for those TBs.

Seems the solution is that all SH get a turn within the CB period, thus the maximum transaction delay is some fraction of a CB?

Yes, and to prevent joining the queue in order to receive TBs in order, you only need some simple functions to split up new SHs and then add some wobble to the order as a factor of time. The randomization of the order was only nice as an eloquent system, it was never required for SH security.

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What are the problems with this? What about network overload?

Seems this design will be subject to DDoS attack by spamming the number of SH, since we have to listen to all, we can't pattern them out.

As I have previously stated, only someone with a huge vested interest in the network could do this. It is better than someone 51% attacking bitcoin because nothing can actually be accomplished of note besides delaying transactions. Dropping transactions can be somewhat objectively determined based on historic figures, and SHs could be penalized that continuously fall too far below the average. But remember, if 1% of the currency is tied up in the SH/CNPs, then the attacker must control some fraction of a percent of all the currency in existence to perform this all-around useless attack.
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