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461  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I wanna design a new crypt coin, what features do u think should be included in? on: April 29, 2013, 02:46:29 AM
your analysis is really valuable, the transaction fees will be 1/10000 in a fixed ratio after 100 transactions per user per day, do you think this is acceptable?

You can't keep track of users, this will be very intolerant of sybil attacks.
462  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: I wanna design a new crypt coin, what features do u think should be included in? on: April 29, 2013, 01:59:36 AM
uh, u mean one user can at most send 1440 transactions under ur condition?

Yes. It's the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash.

The problem with using a hashcash style spam-prevention is that it almost has the opposite effect on a distributed network. One user who can make 1,440 transactions per day can have the networks bandwidth multiplied by 1,440 txes X the number of network peers. "It shows work! I must pass it on to everyone I know!" Multiply this by a botnet and you have complete network collapse. In addition, providing a nonce as proof of work with each transaction will increase the size of each transaction by at least 32 bytes, perhaps 64 bytes or more. That is a significant increase in bandwidth to avoid paying transaction fees. Proof of work as tx fees is more easily DDoS'd and less scalable.
463  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 09:06:19 PM
and i still claim that your system can be exploited when you are a implementation.

And I accepted your wager. Smiley
464  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 08:48:06 PM
the bitcoin network itself is not resistant against a 51% attack, true. but the people that monitors it are hard to confuse, and knows when its not working.

Correct, but dishonest mining hardware can't be destroyed; Decrits shares can. The people that monitor Decrits are being paid to do so, whereas only miners in bitcoin get paid, decentralization++. They also have a say in which network is correct by dropping suspicious TB activity. Non-miners in bitcoin have no say. And all this is achieved without using proof-of-work.

If 99% of the SHs are completely corrupt and 100% of the CN is completely honest: Decrits user unaffected.* It's a slam dunk in BFT.

* - a slight overstatement as transactions will be delayed for awhile, but otherwise no biggie
465  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 08:33:03 PM
you could say that, but you have yet to fully specify the system and as a consequence i can only poke around and look for week points.

I agree. However, if the network can perform as I will describe, the best EvilCorp. can do is temporarily fork the network. This is the "end game" scenario if EvilCorp has sufficiently infiltrated the CN and the SHs. What they will accomplish is being able to confuse *some* people temporarily, at the cost of their shares being destroyed on the honest network. Unlike bitcoin, an attempted takeover will be quickly and ultimately obvious to everyone who has paid attention to the network for any length of time (SH activity is kept in separate ledger so that even light clients can verify the network has not had any problems very easily and for a small amount of bandwidth).

To convince the people that EvilCorp.'s network is the honest one, they would have to control every corner of communication within and outside the network. It simply is not feasible for anyone to accomplish this in a sufficiently large network (or even a pretty small one). Honest merchants are intended to be the primary SHs because they will be able to recoup their transaction fees for essentially no effort while securing transactions at the same time by only keeping track of network data they already needed to keep track of for timely confirmations (efficiency++, decentralization++). If you are one of the confused and Amazon, Walmart, and Best Buy all say "hey d00ds, this one's the honest network", do you believe them, or do you go with the side that isn't identifying itself?

And what can this attack accomplish? Potentially getting away with a few double/bad spends on an unsuspecting victim who manages to agree to part with product even though half the network is missing? They will destroy the shares of the honest side of the network and could then potentially change the code, but no one is going to buy it.

It is an idea I came up with very early on in the Encoin proposals: allowing EvilCorp. to make its own fork and let the users decide which fork loses every single decrit they invested in causing these shenanigans. It is a PERMANENT solution to eliminating a threat at the cost of temporary confusion that will be caused anyway. Honest bitcoin miners cannot destroy EvilCorp.'s mining hardware, so they are free to continue to mess with the network on a whim. Point: Massively in favor of Decrits.
466  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 06:40:59 PM
come up with a working implementation, give me the source and i will destroy it. the bet still stands.

Exactly, the bet is still live. I am taking this post to mean that you are calling back your demand for immediate payment in this post:

your system is huge , complex and failish, there is alot of stuff that could and will go wrong. you are giving the power of the system to the devs(central control) from the start. and you cannot buy in with out all current SH agrees. and no one hold my money, and the network cannot do such a task without central control, or the possibility of fail.

bitcoin is different: anyone can buy hardware to mine, no one have(or can ever gain) absolute veto rights.

now give me my btc: 13MXCTA2CPYbREMqNaf5VK2ArSc3QYm8cc

Which means you concede that, on paper, you have not been able to defeat the system. Tongue
467  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 06:21:41 PM
and what happens when they are corrupted?

Your question proposes that the entire network is corrupt. If everyone is in on it, no one is in on anything. What happens if all the mining pools are corrupt? Which is more likely: corrupting a few dozen or hundred people that either control the power of the network (via pools) or control that power directly (in the event of "specialized" mining centers that eliminate any margin for regular people) without even being required to own bitcoins, or thousands to potentially hundreds of thousands of people that have received or purchased Decrits and have put that money, instead of hardware, on the line as collateral to protect the network in return for a portion of network transaction fees? Each having a real, individual ability to shape the course of the network?

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you really don't understand the sybil attack do you?

Your continued unsubstantiated accusations are getting old. I have responded politely and in detail each time so far then you jump to another topic, wait for my explanation, then call into question my intellgence without conceding or continuing to argue the previous point. Twice now even responding with an attack vector to a post that already provides the answer to that vector, and using my "lack of knowledge" as proof.

"This is thwarted by the larger and more diverse CN, [...] The only way to get around this is to also control the vast majority of the CN, and really, a large portion of the CNCs/SPs as well. At this point you are just playing with yourself. Don't forget that this will also require a not insignificant percentage of all the coins in existence."
468  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 05:45:26 PM
this system smells fishy. ONE person decides what the outcome will be,

Is it not the same for bitcoin? One person will eventually win the lottery by finding a winning block. His view of the network is accepted as "the" view. Although in reality it is actually just a few pools that can make that determination and can easily collude. Perhaps pools give you warm fuzzies, but they are far less decentralized than the system I propose.

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and decides who will be next to make a decision?

Absolutely, unequivocally, not. I specifically noted how the random order would be determined to help you understand this. The Consensus Block only exists if it is agreed on by all SHs. The reason why I designed the consensus period to be so long is so that a) SHs do not have to constantly monitor the network (they only need to be online around the time in which they have to create a TB), and b)

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you assume SHs agrees. which i assure you, they will not.

to give an ample window of time to organize the Transaction Block chain so that whoever is going to provide a TB or CB signature (if they missed their TB or had their TB dropped by the CN or other SHs) has the opportunity to do so. I did not cover the Transaction Block chain in the OP because it starts getting into the very technical details of network security, which I have already promised Ukigo that I will detail soon.

There are only two reasons why consensus of the network can not be reached:

1) EvilCorp. owns a significant amount of shares and is trying to make it look like TheGoodGuys are not attempting to reach consensus. This is thwarted by the larger and more diverse CN, as well as CNCs and SPs, watching network activity. They will refuse to acknowledge newer blocks that have not acknowledged previous blocks. This is not a hard and fast rule, it is determined by the will of the entire network. The longer you wait to acknowledge a TB that has propagated, the more likely your TB will fail. The only way to get around this is to also control the vast majority of the CN, and really, a large portion of the CNCs/SPs as well. At this point you are just playing with yourself. Don't forget that this will also require a not insignificant percentage of all the coins in existence.
2) Internet infrastructure goes down/governments block outside access/specifically target decrits. These are all solved by meshnet technology. While it's easy to say "it will be solved in the future", this is not a problem the network can fix, though of course it will have ways to recover from minor and even major splits, but only if they are reasonably temporary*. And even for an extended period people locked out of the network only need to get through a few dozen bytes to maintain consensus.

edit: * - Reasonable is a fairly long time, on the order of 10-30 CDs depending on how it finally ends up working out and how strong of a possibility this really seems (not that likely, but China for example could be a problem with its history).
469  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 04:50:29 PM
lets say that we have 4 SHs. and 3 addresses, A with 10 "coins", and B and C with 0 "coins" each.

SH_1 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to B, TX(A->B).
SH_2 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to C, TX(A->C).

SH_3 have a incentive to support TX(A->B), for some irrelevant reason.
SH_4 have a incentive to support TX(A->C), for some irrelevant reason.

which transaction wins?

SHs are assigned in random orders* to produce Transaction Blocks that cover specific 10 second periods in each CB. The transaction that wins will be based on which SH is the next to create a TB after the transactions have propagated. This is the basis for 5-15 second confirmations.

* - The "random" order is changed by the hash of the 100% SH signature consensus (or less than 100% with unsigning SHs losing their deposit--section 1.B.ii) of the prior CB.
470  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 03:33:09 PM
AU2 which is accutually BS, double spends the transaction. because it know secret S, from the broadcast.

There isn't a concept of "double spending" in Decrits because coins are not tracked individually, they are tracked by account balances (instead the concept is "bad spends"--spends that would take your account below zero, or in a SH's case, below 3,000). Every blinded transaction has an equal opportunity to any of the coins in the SH's account until it goes below the share size. Knowing S does not unrepudiate the transaction. The Decrits network will not just ignore this like Bitcoin does. There is no retribution for acknowledging it in Bitcoin though so it is not *completely* necessary (though the current implementation is rather bone-headed from a merchant's standpoint), whereas in Decrits the offending SH will be penalized.
471  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
That helps the business, it helps the cryptocurrency, and it stimulates the overall economy. Its a win-win-win, thats what Im trying to explain.

It's also something any non-pyramidal cryptocurrency will provide. Will businesses choose the volatile rollercoaster of bitcoin? Or would they prefer something that is stable and immune to fiat inflation? When businesses can hold cryptocurrency without volatility, it will encourage them to find ways to use it outside of fiat, thus expanding the real value of the economy. Immediately cashing back to fiat does not expand this value--it makes for digital hot potatoes.
472  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 03:00:31 PM
What if SH decides to lose 3,000 just to be able to compromise the system? Any defense against such a situation?

"If people are concerned about trolling, SHs with at least 1 year of service may be an option or a requirement to blind transactions."

It does not solve the problem, but it makes the troublemakers have to spend a lot of time and effort to lose 500 DCR and the greater profitability of being a SH for an extended period. The bigger the penalty, the less money that can be blinded, so a trade-off must be made. It isn't a perfect system, but it should be an acceptable risk.


AU sends B(S) to BS and asks for it to be paid out.

AU sends B(S) to the network where every other SH will see it as a valid transaction and add it to his TB.

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BS have now S denies to pay out, claiming that the secret S have already been used.

BS can not claim that the secret has been used without the unblinded transaction being published and debited from his account. As I have said multiple times, if more transactions signed by BS come in that would bring him below his share requirement, there is proof of fraudulent activity. On an individual tx basis it will not be possible to prove fraud, but as a whole it can be detected and punished.

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AU is scammed without being able to proof it, BS can always show that it knows S and therefor that it has been "used".
BS wins, AU loses.

Both lose, but BS* loses more (and less than the early withdrawal penalty) and SH reputation. There is no rational reason to do this.

edit: sorry originally typed AU
473  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 02:31:36 PM
this cannot be done securely. the SH can steal the deposited money without any proof of doing so, due to the anonymity of the receiver and plausible deniability of blind-sig.

im convinced now, you really don't know what you are talking about.

There is no plausible deniability to a non-repudiated digital signature, blind or otherwise. That is a basic tenet of digital signatures. A transaction arriving that brings the SH's account below 3,000 DCR is proof that the SH has stolen or is attempting to steal money. The SH could sign the 2,500 DCR worth of transactions, cash them all out immediately, and when any of the legitimate unblinded txes come in, the fraud will be revealed with proof for all to see, and the SH will lose the 3,000 deposit.

You either don't understand or are unwilling to understand the concept. The SH can not just cash money out whenever he wants, there are specific rules associated with being a SH: number one among them being that the share money is locked for a period of 1 year. Anything above that amount (including tx fee payments) may be cashed out. Going below that amount is violating a rule of the network like trying to award 100 coins to yourself in a bitcoin coinbase transaction. No one honest will accept it. The system I have described is viable. If people are concerned about trolling, SHs with at least 1 year of service may be an option or a requirement to blind transactions.
474  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
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C. Preserving Anonymity of CNPs (and SHs) CNPs will often have to associate IP addresses with account numbers when joining or cashing out of the CN. This is terrible for privacy-minded people and they should not have to be forced to use some outside "laundry" service to disassociate this connection. To provide this, buy-ins and cash-outs may be performed with blind transactions (invented by Chaum).
you do know that blind signing can not be done without a central authority, and a person cashing out would therefor have to use a laundry service.

Did you read the post I linked right after that sentence?

"Actually, I thought about it a bit more, and specifically under the Decrits system this would be possible because of the shareholder system.

Users blind their transactions and shareholders add them to a blind sig queue. Once there are enough in the queue (decided by the protocol, say 50 or so txes), a shareholder will sign all of them and have the coins deposited to his shareholder stake.[..] You have the slight chance of getting boned if the shareholder removes his share,"

While this is true, there is a non-gameable way to ensure this is a waste of time and money. The penalty for seeing more withdrawals than allowed (when the blind signees come to get their money) is bigger than the gain made by stealing money. For example, if a SH has a 3,000 DCR deposit, he will only be allowed to blind sign 2,500 DCR which will be added to his stake. If a transaction places his stake below 3,000 DCR, he will lose 3,000 DCR for a net of -500 and all reputation associated with his SH (3 years potentially down the drain). An "early withdrawal" penalty would be say 250 DCR, so it is also not a profitable avenue over just taking that penalty.

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you really don't know what you are talking about do you?

Yes, yes I do know what I am talking about.
475  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
your system is huge , complex and failish, there is alot of stuff that could and will go wrong. you are giving the power of the system to the devs(central control) from the start.

I was actually planning on making a point about this in accepting the bet, but talk is cheap, you will be proven wrong.

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and you cannot buy in with out all current SH agrees.

Incorrect. The SHs that do not include share buying transactions will eventually have their transaction blocks dropped--I can go into a lot more technical detail on how this will work, but it is dry. It is a dead-simple mechanic to understand though once the whole idea of how the network operates is understood. For a later post though when I respond to Ukigo. When a SH comes along that does include the transaction, the CNPs will transmit that block as the current state of the network, and penalties will be applied to those SHs who "missed" blocks. I already made and addressed this argument for you in the second paragraph.

The network would fail upon its first share purchase if existing SHs acted the way you presume they can (unless one entity owns all SHs, CNPs, and clients). If *one* SH is honest, the network could theoretically continue with just that SH until more shares are purchased.

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and no one hold my money, and the network cannot do such a task without central control, or the possibility of fail.

As I said, no one is holding your money, the network has only agreed to change the state of it.
476  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 10:59:29 AM
a) where does my money go?

Hay look, questions! Cool Your money is digital bits on the internet, it doesn't go anywhere. But as far as how the money is represented in those bits, well the simplest way to explain that is that it moves from one ledger--general accounts--to another--shares.

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b) can i buy more then one share? can i buy a majority anonymously?

Yes and theoretically yes. While I haven't gone deep down into the number-crunching hole of figuring out desirable ratios of SHs to say, people on Earth, suffice it to say that it will require massive amounts of monetary control over the network before being able to embark on such a proposition. Because the production of money is unbounded (and currency distributed randomly), obtaining this type of control will be difficult if not impossible.

Additionally, controlling >50% of the consensus does not give you supreme control over the network. You can't rewrite history, you can't make bad spends (a spend transaction for more money than is in an account), you can't even drop transactions or other SHs' Transaction Blocks because the Cloudnet, and the everyday peer, is watching. You would need to control a large portion of the consensus, a massive portion of the Cloudnet, restrict all SP communication, etc. to keep a lid on any nefarious activities. And unless all the good guys just legitimately quit, there will be the problem of a big hole in the consensus that *everybody* knows about.

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c) who is the first SH?

There will be a bootstrapping process. The last part of that bootstrapping process before beginning the live network will be giving out something like 50-100 shares to people who have contributed to the project on the condition that they must perform the SH duties for at least 3 years before cashing out, or the entire share will be void (this will be maintained by the network). A similar deal but less restrictive for giving away CNP shares to hundreds or a few thousand that must be maintained for 1 year. There will be bonuses to minting (perhaps 5-10x) and share prices can be purchased at discounted prices (such as 1/3rd) during the live bootstrap, these bonuses will slowly evaporate as the bootstrap process comes to an end--3 years is what I've been using in my notes as the live bootstrap period.
477  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 10:36:31 AM
I dont understand the need for absolute stability and in fact the notion of trying to enforce it probably brings more issues than it solves.

This is a misguided notion of Decrits, and I understand where you're coming from because my initial proposals for Encoin tried to force stability. Decrits will only attempt to maintain a stable cost to produce the currency. This has many different implications, almost all of which I think are better for a healthy currency than attempting to enforce stability. But that's a long-winded discussion of economics.

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All you need to know about decentralized cryptocoins is that they are deflationary by nature. Over the LONG TERM, they will go up in value.

This is a silly presumption. Bitclones will not be the only implementation of cryptocurrency ever.

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If businesses want to accept bitcoins they dont need to hold them. This is a crucial point in the crypto-economy.

One that I believe is a crucial failure if you expect BTC to replace fiat. All those notions of liberty and freedom go right out the window when bitcoins offer little reprieve from fiat.

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Holding coins is for people or businesses that understand the long term deflationary value of a decentralized cryptocurrency.

Holding coins is for people that live in mommy's basement. Businesses need stable cash flows, and bitcoin will not provide that.
478  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 10:26:01 AM
come up with a implementation and i will hack it. Wink
How much BTC are you willing to wager?
5 btc.

if i can find a central authority or are able to cheat the system, i win.

Bet accepted. Although it will be awhile before you'll have the opportunity. But where do you see a central authority lurking in the OP? If you think what I propose can't be accomplished, quote a sentence that claims something and ask me how it will be accomplished.
479  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 10:15:25 AM
come up with a implementation and i will hack it. Wink

How much BTC are you willing to wager?
480  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 10:05:54 AM
the way SHs can buy their way into CB is fishy. it does either depend on a central authority or is not safe. 

Poppycock. I didn't leave "truly decentralized - except for this one, huge, major thing" out of the title on accident. It's not there because it's not true.

To start, SHs don't "buy their way into the CB", anything that is network data is added to the CB by consensus. Someone who has enough Decrits to buy a share and wants to buy a share can buy a share by creating a valid share buying transaction. The share money will be removed from the initiating account, and after consensus is reached that person will be assigned to create a Transaction Block in the next CB along with other SHs. At this point, no one can deny that the share buyer is a share holder. I have edited the original post to make it clear that this is a special transaction, and cited this post. You are not sending money to some guy you don't know on the internet, the transaction is managed by the network itself.

Now, you could make the argument that SHs have an incentive to drop share buying transactions because it means they will receive a smaller percentage of the transaction fees. However, this is already addressed in section 2.D. Share purchases fall under the "important transactions" category. Honest CNPs have an incentive to see as many SHs as possible because it is better for decentralized network security, and their "take" from the transaction fees will be unchanged. Although this brings up something I hadn't yet considered--CNPs are not incentivized at all to propagate special transactions that are buying into the CN. This can easily be addressed by offering a small, short-term incentive that some will be willing to take (by adding in the CNP identification code to receive credit), so everyone may as well attempt it because it will eventually find a SH. Additionally, SPs would transfer these transactions around too (presumably smart SHs will be active as SPs), as it is in their best interest to have more CNPs--again in the name of a robust and decentralized network.



Ukigo, your post drives at the very heart of the network security. I will answer it in some detail later. But I must have gone through a hundred different ways this could work from the first time I decided to separate mining from security, and I found 99 ways to make it fail or show that it was horribly inefficient. This one is highly efficient and it will not fail. It is even remotely possible that governments could collaborate to make it fail, so I have written ideas down regarding how the network could adapt to operating within a meshnet-like infrastructure that must be presumed to be in place to protect against this remote possibility.
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