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961  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How I got robbed of 34 btc on Mt.Gox today on: April 15, 2013, 11:17:42 PM
what could gox've done ?

They could have been a bit quicker deleting an obviously bogus and malicious link from their own chat.
It was a link in the btc-e chat. It could as easily have been a link posted here.

What could limit the success of these attacks besides 2FA would be if mtgox would lock changes to withdraw address or account details for 24 hours and send an email of the activity.
962  Other / Off-topic / Re: I bought a stunning engagement ring - directly with Bitcoins! on: April 15, 2013, 11:03:20 PM
Sapphire mine
Diamond mine

963  Other / Off-topic / Re: I bought a stunning engagement ring - directly with Bitcoins! on: April 15, 2013, 10:51:36 PM
Congrats on sapphire: you still have Al after aluminum oxide melts at >2000C, making it much more forever than diamond (carbon), which turns into carbon dioxide at 700C and blows away.
* deepceleron makes extra-strength scrub-free shower cleaner out of sulfamic acid and 97% water...
964  Economy / Speculation / Re: wtf? 5 coins disappeared out of my wallet just now (mtgox) on: April 15, 2013, 10:35:07 PM
Go to account history and pick Please choose which history you want to see: BTC. Then examine the last btc transactions. Also check the registered email address for notifications.

Then pick the move topic button in the lower left of this forum post page and move the thread to marketplace->economics->service discussions, after unchecking the move notification.
965  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 15, 2013, 04:20:09 PM
The relation between 6 minutes and 6 days is 11 bits.
The relation between 32 zero bits and 43 zeros bits is 11 bits.
So blocks 1-10 match EXACTLY the same hashing power as the genesis block.
People tend to explain PoW in the genesis block as "just luck".
I don't believe in luck. I can't believe in luck, since I have some cryptography background.

This is nonsense. It takes no extra time to randomly find a <0000000ffff hash that is equivalent to difficulty 1, 2, or 2000. Anything may come out of the hasher as the first hash you get. There is no "six days of hashing", that is just a stupid idea.

The genesis block has a 4 ExtraNonce value, approximately equal to the blocks 1-10 ExtraNonce deltas.
So THE SAME mining computers that mined the genesis block probably mined blocks 1-10.
The whole mystery of ExtraNonces mismatches is solved.

This is nonsense, as I described before, this likely means only that 2^32 * (ExtraNonce - previousExtraNonce ) + nonce hashes were performed after genesis mining start before a block solution was created. Any computer that starts Bitcoin 0.1.0 mining increments its nonce+extranonce in the same deterministic way absent any network block or transaction messages. There is no connection between the genesis creator and the rest of the blockchain.

Obviously the 16 threads/core configuration is not the only possible one, there may have been more PCs, each one slower. I'm sure that in the ExtraNonce fields there is enough statistical information to tell how many. Too many (>50) is not very probable, since they ought to be connected and started mining in a short time interval (2 minutes or so).

Lets look at how many Bitcoin clients there actually were then:

When Hal posted his crash debug log (cleverly pointed out by non-noob member Point at Infinity) containing the same first 49 blocks as we have now, it showed no timewarping or forking was done. Block 49's Timestamp is 2009-01-10 18:56:42; the email list message time is 2009-01-10 19:13. Block finding rate is similar before and after this point.

What it also shows is the number of Bitcoin clients listening in IRC for peers. Each Bitcoin has it's own 14 character "u" nick in the #bitcoin channel in 0.1.0 (you'll still find these in that channel from time to time). Who was in that channel? Three people were in the channel: Hal, another Bitcoin 0.1.0, and a listener.

List of nicks in #bitcoin channel:
IRC 353 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs @ #bitcoin :uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs x93428606 @u4rfwoe8g3w5Tai
IRC 366 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs #bitcoin :End of /NAMES list.

More info about those users?:
(format RPL_WHOREPLY "<channel> <user> <host> <server> <nick> ( "H" / "G" > ["*"] [ ( "@" / "+" ) ] :<hopcount> <real name>")

First nick to join channel (had channel ops): Bitcoin 0.1.0 user u4rfwoe8g3w5Tai 352 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs #bitcoin n=u4rfwoe8 u4rfwoe8g3w5Tai H@ :0  u4rfwoe8g3w5Tai

Second nick to join channel: x93428606 (not bitcoin, connecting by Tor) 352 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs #bitcoin i=x9342860 gateway/tor/x-bacc5813d7825a9a x93428606 H :0  x93428606

Third nick to join channel: Hal's Bitcoin, uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs 352 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs #bitcoin n=uCeSAaG6 uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs H :0  uCeSAaG6R9Qidrs

There is no evidence either way that bitcoin #1 was satoshi. To receive the first bitcoin transaction, Satoshi would not even need to run Bitcoin, just giving an address would be sufficient.

I am done responding to this thread, since my previous analysis is not interpreted correctly and there is no hypothesis here. Satoshi is bitrich, you aren't.
966  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 15, 2013, 06:31:36 AM
I do not expect any significant performance difference between 0.1.0 and 0.3.24. I have a mirror of the 0.1.0 code if you want to try compiling it:
Please don't expect. Run bitcoin-0.1.0 on a private network. You don't need to compile it, run bitcoin.exe. You need two bitcoin machines with different IP addresses, and an IRC server that pretends to be freenode. See how much of your quad core it uses. See how long it takes to mine 10 blocks. It won't prove or debunk any argument, because the argument itself is ludicrous, but then you will know.

While we are posting code, net.cpp:

//// todo: start one thread per processor, use getenv("NUMBER_OF_PROCESSORS")
void ThreadBitcoinMiner(void* parg)
    vfThreadRunning[3] = true;
        bool fRet = BitcoinMiner();
967  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: I left this one Final Bit to understanding Bitcoin Mining Programming, Help on: April 15, 2013, 06:06:02 AM
You can check out the python miner as a reference, which does all it's hashing in software.

Technically, if it didn't take you about 30000000000000000 hashes to find a valid nonce, its not really a block hash..
968  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD(DEBATE GOING ON, DO NOT TWEET!) on: April 14, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
lol @ 14kh/s between blocks 0 and 1, that's obviously satoshi trying his hardest to mine for a week rather than him waiting for public release before mining.
Wrong. (you should stop posting now...)

The genesis block, Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:15:05 GMT, had to be included in the c++ code before it was compiled. Then the code had to be tested and packaged before it was released. Bitcoin probably was "premined" before release by some testing, but any blockchain testing was discarded.  Satoshi appears to have had working near-Bitcoin code for quite a while (see quote above).

Since the genesis block also has an extranonce of "4" like the first block does, it is likely generated with the same Bitcoin mining code as in the client, and took no more effort to find than the first block (3-4 nonce cycles).

The freenode #bitcoin channel (now used for discussion) is where Bitcoin originally connected to find peers. It would be interesting if there are any logs of how early this channel first appeared to see pre-release testing activity.
969  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD(DEBATE GOING ON, DO NOT TWEET!) on: April 14, 2013, 09:21:33 PM
Wow didn't even notice that FUD.  

Here is another post about the whitepaper (2008-10-31):
A more accessible view of discussion in that archive (which is a metzdowd mirror):

And interesting posts, Satoshi had been working a while on it:

Quote from: Satoshi
I appreciate your questions. I actually did this kind of backwards. I had to write all the code before I could convince myself that I could solve every problem, then I wrote the paper. I think I will be able to release the code sooner than I could write a detailed spec.

and about inflation or deflation from coin creation rate:
Quote from: Satoshi
The fact that new coins are produced means the money supply increases by a planned amount, but this does not necessarily result in inflation.  If the supply of money increases at the same rate that the number of people using it increases, prices remain stable.  If it does not increase as fast as demand, there will be deflation and early holders of money will see its value increase.

Coins have to get initially distributed somehow, and a constant rate seems like the best formula.

Satoshi Nakamoto

Almost 4000 BTC a day is still getting printed ($4M USD worth), and it hardly debases the currency.
970  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD(DEBATE GOING ON, DO NOT TWEET!) on: April 14, 2013, 09:03:43 PM
Bitcoin was never once publicly discussed prior to its release.

971  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: I left this one Final Bit to understanding Bitcoin Mining Programming, Help on: April 14, 2013, 08:43:45 PM
You can look at the references: - has examples of getwork submissions

Here's an old post, follow for more info:
scanhash_c in shows midstate and hash1 being used.

Basically, there are 3 chunks that the sha256_transform function in that file is called for per "nonce" value. [Here is the header definition from]

FieldPurposeUpdated when...Size (Bytes)
VersionBlock version numberYou upgrade the software and it specifies a new version4
Previous hashHash of the previous blockA new block comes in32
Merkle root256-bit hash based on all of the transactionsA transaction is accepted32
TimestampCurrent timestampEvery few seconds4
"Bits"Current target in compact formatThe difficulty is adjusted4
Nonce32-bit number (starts at 0)A hash is tried (increments)4

You are getting a block header, changing the nonce, and returning the hash of it you found which is below the target.

Note that special transforms have to be done before hashing (and then back before submitting results). Endian-ness of data needs to be flipped in 4 byte increments before hashing.

Header contents from your data (hashes are reversed):

Version: 00000002
00000002 9af1f43c342ad525e3c4fd9368a76fbe32a2bfc1d5503b6c00000076

Previous hash: 0000000000000076d5503b6c32a2bfc168a76fbee3c4fd93342ad5259af1f43c
(block 230829)
00000002 9af1f43c342ad525e3c4fd9368a76fbe32a2bfc1d5503b6c00000076

Merkle root: 123f8e23fbeed2802beb16311002bb2f24d5d42ab42bb92c330f06fe5a720f8e
00000000 e5a720f8ec330f06fab42bb92f24d5d4211002bb202beb163fbeed28

Timestamp: 51 66 d7 7c (1365694332 unix epoch time)
123f8e23 5166d77c 1a022fbe0000000000000080000000000000000000000000

bits (Compact target): 1a 02 2f be
123f8e235166d77c 1a022fbe 0000000000000080000000000000000000000000

nonce: the value your miner will be changing
123f8e235166d77c1a022fbe 00000000 00000080000000000000000000000000

the data1 midstate should be ignored and calculated by your miner, newer mining protocols remove this.
972  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: A pretty cool free BTC website (I think) on: April 14, 2013, 07:08:55 PM
Forum moderation policy

The policy to not remove anything worked when the forum was small. Now that we have thousands of posts a day, we can't afford 50% of them being junk. The moderators are now instructed to be less tolerant of low-value posts.

Some guidelines:

1. Free speech - you can say anything as long as it is relevant and presented in a calm and polite manner. Swearing, SHOUTING etc. make your post more likely to be removed.
2. No zero value posts or threads, like "SELL SELL SELL"
3. No pointless or uninteresting threads.
4. No referral code spam
5. No NSFW content

OP should edit the post before a mod does it.
973  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD(DEBATE GOING ON, DO NOT TWEET!) on: April 14, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
I just put in a virtual order to liquidate 1M BTC if that's the OP's hypothesis (and yes, you could sell them, there are currently book orders to buy twice as many BTC as will ever exist) - :
Sell 1000000 BTC for 14239194.29 USD

I would love to see all the coins dumped. That would end this FUD and the temporary crash would only bounce up as people realize there is no more mystery coin.

The "early adopters are rich" is played out; besides Satoshi (who may never move coins or may not have early wallets - Bitcoin implementation may have been merely a proof of concept in his head), other mined coins have been lost or changed hands for things like pizzas and early investors have sold many times over. There are just a few, like casascius, who are strong willed enough to never spend their Bitcoins. I'd be relatively well off if I still had every BTC that's ever been in my wallet or knew the magic time to exchange them, but I spent them.
974  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Mtgox claim officially turned bitcoin into Ponzi on: April 14, 2013, 06:08:13 PM
It is the little things that tell us the most about people.  Any idiot can sew an extra button or two on each sleeve of a suit jacket to make it look like he paid more for the suit than he did, rent a Mercedes, and buy a Rolex from a pawn shop, but snap at tip a waiter or speak condescendingly respectfully to a janitor and your cover is blown.
Most service workers would have a different opinion of the consideration paid them by the wealthy.

I didn't know that people are counting suit sleeve buttons, I'm calling my Savile Row tailor and telling him to update my pattern to buttons all the way up!

While Tradehill charged a USD fee to both sides of a trade, mtgox earns both BTC and USD in fees. This put about 9000 BTC of fees last month into their wallet. You can make your own argument that this is like a stock broker being paid in the stock he is pumping, but as Bitcoin is a currency, it shows that they are putting confidence in Bitcoin's success and future value by accepting it for their trading service (unlike most traders here, who just want to extract the most USD from BTC). Would you rather have an exchange that doesn't trust BTC enough that they want all their fees paid in USD?

BTW, it did go back up after a crash (to other exchange's prices), which everyone besides mtgox could also predict.
975  Other / Off-topic / Re: Can you identify me? 2.5BTC reward. on: April 14, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
I have made the announcement of the blind mixing service. Maybe you will find more informations there to identify me.

Now that you've proved nobody can identify you, you want to start a service where people send you Bitcoins. Seems reasonable.
976  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 14, 2013, 11:24:15 AM
Date from the raw email @ mailing list:

From satoshi at  Thu Jan  8 14:27:40 2009
From: satoshi at (Satoshi Nakamoto)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:27:40 +0800
Subject: Bitcoin v0.1 released
Message-ID: <CHILKAT-MID-3d087dc8-b531-1fd3-bebb-15dcffb225ce@server123>

Announcing the first release of Bitcoin, a new electronic cash
system that uses a peer-to-peer network to prevent double-spending.
It's completely decentralized with no server or central authority.

Note that the Jan 09 time above is UTC +8, it's Satoshi (pretending to be) in Asia or Western Australia.

Block 1 timestamp: 1231469665 Fri: 09 Jan 2009 02:54:25 GMT

At block 73, someone's miner gets a restart or a new player starts mining for several blocks

Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:31:28 GMT
977  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 14, 2013, 10:37:38 AM
I have strong evidence the same computer AND JUST ONE  mined blocks 1-10

Just look at the extra nonce in the coinbase field of the coinbase transaction.

The counter is monotonically incrementing at a constant pace.

Also this can be used to find how many computers/threads where mining at  some  time (until they get powered-off). Each thread has another monotonically incrementing ExtraNonce variable.

So from that we can infer Satoshi PC Resources. Those resources allowed him to mine a block with 32 leading zeros every 6 minutes.

It is strong evidence that one entity mined those blocks. Mining timestamps start three hours after the announcement email dropped in the inbox of every crypto mailing list subscriber.

It would be cool if coinbase scriptsig + nonce could act as a counter of exactly how many hashes an individual miner has been doing, but analysis doesn't allow perfect inference of the hashrate. The bnExtraNonce (which is an OpenSSL bn BigNum being written in hex) starts at 1 every instantiation and is incremented whenever the miner loop is restarted which is:

-if the miner thread is restarted (through UI, restart),
-after every 262144 hashes:
  • if new transactions have been seen and miner has ran for more than 60 seconds,
  • if there is a new network block or a block is found
  • if the nonce has wrapped to 0

One still could dump nonce+extra and attempt to assemble a tree of likely continuous miner runs, although analysis code might get confused pretty quickly.

One interesting thing in my reading of 0.1.0 is that mining won't start if Bitcoin is not connected to other nodes, so there had to be at least two Bitcoin machines on. This is probably to prevent naive forking, from miners reconnecting with a longer chain. In fact, I found that bitcoin would crash if it can't get to IRC. It also determines external IP addresses using two web services by static IPs that are dead, only one of which is still alive by DNS, so this makes testnetting harder since you have to emulate these. On the plus side, it writes the genesis block itself if blk0001 doesn't exist (which I find out after manually dumping and importing block 0 into another Bitcoin).

Also it looks like a good CPU would be lucky to get ~0.5MHash - the miner is single-threaded, and it calls the Crypto++ library to do SHA256 and byte juggling twice for every hash.

BTW all this crap about 32 hash bits etc is irrelevant. When did Sergio go batshit?
978  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 14, 2013, 12:17:00 AM
Mining was not constant either during 2009, it's up to you to figure out how much is Satoshi:
979  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi's Fortune lower bound is 100M USD on: April 13, 2013, 11:44:50 PM
I've assumed:

1. Satoshi mined almost alone from 1/3/2009 to 1/25/2010 (block 0 to block 36288). This assumption is based on the Total Network Strength

That is an incorrect assumption, remember the default behaviour of Bitcoin was to generate coins with just one checkbox in the options menu. You will find there are many people trying out Bitcoin, and before this forum opened, there was about six months of (lost) chit chat on a sourceforge forum too, so it's hard to examine records of people trying it out (or leaving it running):

2009-06-13 06:41

The new Bitcoin website/portal is up at  
Forums and a wiki are included, so you're welcome to join discussion  
and wiki documentation.

Martti Malmi
Bitcoin Web Developer

From here...
We had our first automatic adjustment of the proof-of-work difficulty on 30 Dec 2009.  

I have noticed some slowdown since the adjustment, but I still generate a lot of coins.

When Generating, the user will gain 50 coins after creating 120 blocks. Why..

I haven't really been able to tell if coins generate slower or not with less connections...

My first transaction completed resulting in +50 Coins. Yay!!

But what is true is that anybody running Bitcoin that year with a consumer Core 2 would make about 2000 BTC a day.
[Bounty] 201600 BTC for a time machine, I only need a few hours...
980  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Data directory size vs. blockchain size on: April 13, 2013, 10:52:23 PM
(sorry to thread-jack -- can I delete blk1-4 + blkindex in Bitcoin folder? I installed .8 on top of .6 without deleting that folder. SSD's down to 12.6gB free space, so removing waste would be nice.)

You can remove blk0001.dat, blk0002.dat, blk0003.dat and blkindex.dat from the root data directory after a reindex is complete and you are caught up with the blockchain (and you don't plan on going back to an older version). Only blkindex should actually be using disk space, as the old BLK000x data are moved upon upgrade, and the blk000x.dat files you see there are hardlinks (shortcuts) on any filesystem that supports hardlinking.

The new database for v0.8.0+ is stored in two subdirectories, "blocks" (block data, with block id database in "blocks/index"), and "chainstate" (unspent output database). Do not mess with files in these subdirectories.

The current size of the blockchain database subdirectories is 7.83 GB, 6.76 GB of which is raw block data.
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