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21  Economy / Economics / Re: Is Bitcoin for “Fake Rich”? on: December 26, 2020, 11:11:33 PM
Well the gradual change is not possible I believe....

First of all I have to admit I am a pessimist practical person. So if I tell the idea is feasible you should accept it Smiley
The fact that you wrote me such a long answer denotes that even you hope for human prosperity. we all know how poisoned the system is and how hard will be changes, but we have to cope with it or just sit and wait for things getting worse until die.
I prefer to “act”.

lets try to solve issues one by one.
You may heard “code is law”. Once we transformed our “good” rules and mechanisms to code and run our servers, the law will govern forever. Our good and fair law will dominant and defeat old mentality, like all “old mentalities” we missed because of technology dominant. This is the place that gradual changes takes place.

The Bitcoin “started for the good purpose and ended up being another speculative asset”. That’s true because it was first experience and Satoshi missed some points about its game theory. It doesn’t mean Bitcoin is must be the last experience. We can create a new better one. In fact we have to create a new one, to appreciate the idea of having center-less monetary system. We have to enrich this idea and enhance it to center-less governing as well. And we have to foreseen challenges. After one decade we are far mature than early Cypherpunks. aren't we?

"As long as there's a living system - be it human organized system, monetary system or something else - there's going to be decreasing entropy, thus increasing centralization over time."
That is true. The better way to say it is, all systems can tolerate a degree of entropy. If the entropy exceeds the tolerated level the system will collapse. Additionally all systems (either an organic system or a human organized system) tend to decrease entropy in order to increase its live.
So we have to follow these strategies.
1. design a system that tolerate maximum level of entropy and decentralization.
2. design more than one system simultaneously.  The systems are working independent and in parallel.
3. make it easy for people to enter and exit different systems with “no cost”.
4. the entire ecosystem (all different systems with different level of entropy and decentralization tolerate) enjoys the power of fragility and hardened by this fragility.
5. the last but not the least, at least one of these systems must start from super centralized structure and moves toward super decentralized system. This particular system is the backbone of the whole ecosystem. Day by day this system is more decentralized while the other systems can move toward more centralization or more decentralization.

"people will end up gaming any system and eventually even one single individual will either find benefit to cheat the system, or entirely out of craziness (as you said there are possible tools to motivate even bad actors to act good by benefiting them) will try to revenge against the new decentralized system and fill find supporters with enough brainwashing power, thus just again - increasing centralization."
Thanks for your insight and predicting these scenarios. So we have to deal with. That’s why we have to design more than one system simultaneously, and that’s why people must be able to enter and leave systems with no cost and that’s why the entire ecosystem is hardened by this “fragility”.
People will be free to enter a system (accept a money) or leave a system (do not validate that money) with less cost. The insight is, the weak game theories or insecure protocols or corrupted societies, or cheating monies must be destroyed as soon as possible. Before their money obtains a fake price, before they scam average people and before they accomplish the fraud, their money and their community will be disgraced. It is “the power of fragility”. Meanwhile the honest communities and coins will grownup and increase their population (believers) and raise up the value of their coins.

The idea of “new system with credit" context isn’t new and as you mentioned, they examined it before in different places and different times. Some of them were too successful and some failed. We already have different kind of “mutual” systems, reciprocate, parecon, time banks as well. We have also many local currencies -whole the glob- that are in action actually.
BTW what they are all missed is they are bind to a limited Geo-location and have narrow market and they are all suffer from high centralized administration, since all are created before internet era. Some of our systems can pick the best part of them and armed them with decentralized protocol. In such a case the adversaries can't stop them.

If we put enough incentives in our systems, people will abandon their common thinking, beliefs, history, norms, and systems and simply adapt to the new paradigm.
22  Economy / Economics / Re: Is Bitcoin for “Fake Rich”? on: December 26, 2020, 05:36:50 PM

You depict the current system pretty well, but I personally really don't see it changing. Even Bitcoin was created for good of people, but it ended up where we are now. And as the time goes - it will get only worse. I wish and really hope you to be correct that we do have all the tools and what is needed to change the system and achieve human prosperity, but I don't think it is the case now...

It could be a simple solution for example - arrange a day X around the globe and raise and awaken to fight the old slave-owners, but this is what is likely to happen. Imagine we crate a simple sign-up and watch time website. People will sign-up for sure. There will be people thinking it's fake and will forget about this. There will be people thinking that "oh, my pizza delivery on that day is more important", "oh, I didn't finish my work assignment, so f*ck the Day X", "I have a date with a pretty girl, - definitely more important than some freaks doing some day x". In the end, for sure there will be some people who will try to raise and fight, but they all will get arrested, and some of them will try to cooperate with the police to get some materialistic benefits by turning in their friends whom they know actually went to "fight". And all this will end pretty quickly... It's an poisoned cycle - to change a system, you need resources, to get resources, you need to become part of system, and by the time you become part of it, you enjoy those resources so much that you don't wanna change anything, because you know well that if you do anything - your resources and nice lifestyle and safety will be taken away from you...


All you explained here are true, except the solution itself. No one can change the system by revolution or overnight, neither we shouldn’t wish for it at all. The humankind examined all kind of revolution and reforms in last two centuries and almost all were failed.
Your simple solution is practiced many times and as you predicted truly, it will fail. Because the participators in this movement have to “scarify something” in order to “support some believes”.
The change must be gradual and must have benefit for participants and not punishment (something like early Bitcoin adapters). That’s why I told before: we need a “game theory” in which even evils prefer to chose good option. We must put these mechanisms in practice.
We, the “possess-less” people, must create our alternate “realm” and our alternate “value system”. We do not need to be a part of this system in order to get system resources, because “WE ARE the system”. We can form our system and impact on real world.
Of course in early days no one take us serious, and actually it is a very good chance for us to survive (like Bitcoin in its first 2-3 years), because they do not try to destroy us. Meanwhile we grow and educate our population and fed and bold our “core values”.
The system in which no one can cheat and everyone prefer to act like a good actor – something like Bitcoin hash puzzle solving which everyone prefer to follow rules and find new blocks, instead of wasting energy for cheating old blocks-.

Bitcoin could make these changes in world but it failed because it based on a flawed game theory. The point of power of Bitcoin was/is Proof of Work, and simultaneously the weakest part of Bitcoin – in sense of fairness - is PoW as well, since it couldn't achieve the motto “One CPU, one vote”. Because of its design it ended up in “Who has money, can make more money”. Who has money to buy mining machine and pay for electricity can mine new coins. Who has money can buy many Bitcoins, can manipulate market, create fake waves and endless pump/dump cycles and still riches getting richer and poor getting poorer.

The idea of “decentralization” is a crucial feature of any system wishes to work “fairly”. Bitcoin has a level of decentralization which is not enough to work fairly and just. So we need an alternate “crypto-value” and its proper system (game theory, monetary system, technical architecture, etc). Why I didn’t say we need alternate political regime or alternate ideology or system of thought? Because they are not what we -ordinary people- are facing every day in our day to day life. Instead Bitcoin could be what we face every day. It is about “money” and “personal wealth” -which gives us power to fulfill our needs, whether physical or mental-.
The “money” is our credit in the current society, whereas the real credit must be something else. The solution is to make, the money works in another context. That is, the way of earning money and its indication must be re-defined.
People (including you and me) always seeking for money, because we like the independence and power of having it. This strive for money had no beginning and will have no end and we will continue it forever.
So, what about defining a new kind of money (or better named “credit”), that you need to do some “good act” in order to have eligibility to earn that money?
Some can discuss and argue about “who” and “how” recognize “good act” vs “bad act” and this is another story which has proper answer as well. In short, I can address it, by referring to “justness” and “fairness” in a “real” decentralized system. But for now just imagine we have a perfect (or almost perfect) system that can evaluate your work (what ever work you do daily) and returns a number as usefulness index. The usefulness index represents the fact that how much useful was your job for society, or even better how much useful was your job for whole glob – since we have just one earth and we have to consider the fact that “someones benefit can be someone else lost”-. The system results your 8 hour day job in this new “value system” worth X amount of money, so you earn X coins today. In this system you prefer to follow rule as possible as in order to get higher rate. We have assumed system works enough good and evaluates your job fairly. You can not cheat system in order to earn more money, so you will decide to follow rules and act like a good actor. Not only you but all other investigate the trade-off and decide to act like a good actor.
It is what we were looking for, isn’t? In this system, we will have the rich guys who helped the world more than others. s/he is proud of her/his achievement, s/he is rich and explicitly helped to improve the life of others. It is a win, win, win game. The world is winner. The money supporter community is winner, and the individual person who earned the coins is winner.
One critical question is “Can we have this -almost perfect- evaluating system?”. Since I am a practical philosopher and a technical thinker, my answer is yes. Definitely we have all the technology and tools we need for establishing this realm.
23  Economy / Economics / Re: Is Bitcoin for “Fake Rich”? on: December 25, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.


Yes, in the modern world there is little room for feats and beautiful deeds. 

Man creates new smartphones and computers.  However, don't computers and smartphones change the mind and psyche of people? 

People can learn by imitating more successful people by adopting certain behaviors from them.  However, modern people do not admire other people, but new iPhones.  And they don't learn from humans, but from computers.  As a result, humans themselves become androids.  Information and information flows are the most important thing in the modern world. 

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.


There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.
Right now, it looks like true, but there are solutions too.
What we need is a new paradigm, in which people are respectable, because of their believes and their “acts” of making life easier for others, we need a “practical altruism”. Something beyond just pure morality. A game theory in which everyone has to do the right act in order to make benefit themselves. A system in which even evil can not do bad things. Of course bad doers always can do the bad but the cost of bad must be far higher than doing good. Right now “we have” the necessities for this system and game theory and “we have to” do that as well.
Only in this system can we can hope survive the humankind, whereas in modern history and modern governments (less than 200 years comparing all our thousands years of history) we ruined most of our natural resources and environment and humanity.
The problem is, if right now, one of the evils (supposing a few evils are governing the world) dreamed to stop bad doing and start to good doing, immediately the other bad doers swallow him. As a result, the world is a place of constant conflict and fight between the forces of evil and worst evils.
We -slaves- have no place in this fight. In fact we are the material and victims of this war. We are supporter of this wrong pillar of economy and culture, when we buy their products. we reproducing this social order when we “show off” our possessions, and finally we remain slave and force our child be slave as well if we do not “acting”. The act by which we will create our new political organization.
I am not a dreamer, and I am pretty sure we have all the tools we need, in order to achieve human prosperity.
24  Economy / Economics / Re: Is Bitcoin for “Fake Rich”? on: December 25, 2020, 01:22:28 AM
However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.
25  Economy / Economics / Redefining “exchange rates” to “excellence indice” in “democracy term” on: December 24, 2020, 09:23:22 PM
Let me draw a future in which you vote hundred times in a single day, and your vote impacts immediately. You are not limited to vote only for a person or for a vague plan of a party once every 4 or 5 years, instead you can vote for every single changes and upvote it or defiance it immediately. And most importantly this voting doesn’t take your time or energy. You just buy or sell your goods and services in exchange of money, like what we ALL are doing ALL days!

So lets dive into making future.
Imagine we have a software by which every group of people can establish an online community. A “truly” decentralized and censorship resilience community. So no one can stop the community, or cut its voice. The community is not bound to a certain nationality, Geo-location, race or language, so everyone can join to each community. They can join to the community that they aligned with or leave the community that they are not happy with. Indeed we all are doing same in our real life. We go to places we like and make friend and communicate with who we like. We simply avoid working with people who has nothing in common.

Assume different group of people, have installed the “Community Maker Engine” software and established their online communities. Each community will governed by different set of rules, some will be pure democratic and some other communities may have totalitarian rules. Each community has its customized economic systems for monetary, interest rate, inflation rate, taxation and wealth distribution. Eventually we will have different communities in population number, dispersion, wealth and popularity. Some communities follow market economy, whereas other communities are pure socialist and have some kind of coupons for managing “necessity of life”, and some another communities seeking gift-economy model and they do not have any form of money at all. The software supports all of these different types of rules and communications in vary communities.
Having these hundred or thousands different community, inevitably, communities need to trade with each other, since It is almost impossible for one society not to need the goods or services of another. This need for trade between communities (More precisely, the trade between a person who has the money of community 1 and a person who has the money of community 2) creates the concept of exchange rate between currencies of communities. Two individual can directly change their different coins with agreement on a change rate between themselves.

“For any reason” there will be communities that their money is more valuable than other communities. Later we will go into details “Why the money of a community is valuable than other ones”.
Now suppose the exchange-rates is fairly adjusted and not manipulated by speculators or conspiracy activities. We will discuss this in detail later.

Brief Recap:
- They are coexisting different communities with different currencies, different governing rules and economic system, different order class and different structures. Although the communities are online, but they represent some real people in real world and their believes. Later we will go back to impact of these online societies on real world situation.
- There are exchange rates between currencies  of different communities.

The “exchange rates” between different communities monies generally are flat, and are determined by supply and demand on the “open market” between communities. There are several technical and fundamental factors that determine what people perceive is a fair exchange rate and alter their supply and demand accordingly. Despite the classical factors such as interest rate, inflation rate, commodities, etc… the value of a “community-based currency” comes form  “the community’s tendency of supporting community’s money”.  The community regularly attempts to keep its currency price favorable for inter-community trades. We should accept this assumption, Otherwise community would never have been formed. These mechanisms together provide a concept of “exchange rate as  excellence measurement”.
We can see this measurement -in a very loosely form- already exist in our real world exchange rates. The big difference between “monies of communities” and “fiat currencies” laid in how the currencies are managed. In one side we have currencies, managed by governments and most often in a non democratic way, and the other side the currencies that are powered by people.
The way that current exchange rates work, “exchange rate does not reflect fundamental economic conditions” or at least governments try to uncouple those (through FX intervention), but in our new “community-based arrangement” of world population, the exchange rate reflects both the economic conditions and the political governance of each community.
Reasonably people will demand currency of some communities that they believe in the community’s principals, and refuse or devaluate the currency of other communities. People can be somewhat socialist and a bit capitalist, as well as naturalist and so on. It is our human nature and nothing is one hundred percent right or wrong. So we should pick the best part of each. People are free to create a portfolio of different currencies of different communities and also be a member of some different communities as well. Whenever they feel that a community is no longer following their principles, they simply "leave the community at no cost", unlike the current communities, ideologies, political regimes or countries and territories. They get rid of the community’s money and that’s all. No need to argue, quarrel or fight. No need to war.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Indeed the fact "leave the community at no cost" is a crucial feature. The slavery, exploit, tyranny,  dictatorship and all forms of inequality are the product of the impossibility (or high costly) of free deciding.
“Every time you spend money, you're casting a vote for the kind of world you want.”
      ― Anna Lappé
We buy and sell million times per day. By each transaction we make an impact on the exchange rate (supply and demand rule). These are our votes. We can vote every day million times for what we stand for, whether it’s a new economic policy or a welfare program in a particular society or a cultural movement in another community. This is a kind of instant democracy. We express our opinion and impact on exchange rates immediately. In such a way the corrupted community will lose value of its money and its population very quickly -let alone the fact that this kind of corrupted community can not be formed in first place-.
Arbitrage and all kinds of other schemes of speculation and manipulation are not welcomed, but the communities have to deal with. There will probably be chaos in the beginning, but a stabilization curve will begin soon, and at the end, there will be some stable currencies, that are supported by matured community members. The remaining currencies fluctuate very little (unlike Bitcoin and all other altcoins) and will be used for some real trading and not only speculation. Remember that we are talking about a community that governing their own money and have proper rules in order to expand community members, rise up community reputation and strengthen their money. In this new paradigm not only “competition in monies is good, and there is no problem with private money” but also it is necessary that different group of people – despite the geolocations – can issue their money. Communities will love these contemporaneous friability and stability in community and the money value. What saves one community and its money is the maturity of its population and not force of an authority or military.

Individuals would like to join community (or establish a new community) for various reasons, such as supporting a mindset or some principles, participating in an “open source accelerator project” or just economic incentives.
As mentioned earlier, like-minded people may establish an online community, and set some rules and economic system that they believe in. Obviously they will try to expand community and invite more people to it. Depending on how well the community works -respecting the principles and core values of the community-, individuals may join or leave it. The people are the best judges. They can interact with community at different levels. They can use the money of a community as a "medium of exchange" or as a "store of value" and no more. Or they can involve in community activities and decision making and so on.
There will be people who benefit from exchange rate fluctuations. They may be persuaded to buy that money as well.
In addition, these coins also can be used to pay for network services. That is, community can set some price for services such as domain name registering, weblog/videolog cost, secure messaging, and so on.

Nowadays there are many online communities (AKA social networks like Facebook, Reddit, and million forums) and people are already using this or that community. Some of them have some kind of tokens and they exchange these tokens for each other. But what is special in this idea is decentralization, which means the community (any group of people) can be established and continue to live without any permission. No authority, no central-service or no third party can stop them or censor their voice and contents. The community governs its territory and is absolutely standalone.
They have their community-based money that gains its value from community, and not from authorities (e.g. the company of social network).
In first day the communities money worth absolutely nothing. In long run the value of a community’s money is created by the free choice of community members whom – by the regard of their own interest – judge whether the services community’s money provide is useful to them or not.
If  I believe in my community’s money I expect to buy some good or services from my community’s member. Say ten million coin for one pizza (as it happened before for Bitcoin). It is the zero day for set value of the money of the community. The money’s value come from the exception of future purchasing power. If community acts according to its principles, we expect that the purchasing power of money of community will remain same or increase day by day. Because the community proved its consistency for some principles. This consistency drives more demand for that money from who believes in those principles.
Depends on how the community has introduced itself to the public. The functionality of that particular money is also important. These “money functionalities” act as important factor for the community to impact on real world.
Some communities may prefer to remain in cyberspace and interact like an online community at all. Some other may use this system (including software, and the real people behind the softwares social network) to handle a “collective or cooperative” activity*, or some will use it as a potential infrastructure for a social movement. There are many use cases for this system in real world.

To be continued.
Hu

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